Just something to ponder

[hdhntr1]

Yeah, when John Shurna was a freshman we all looked at him and thought "yep, that's our all-time leading scorer right there."

While we did not know he was going to be the all time leading scorer, he did play over 18 minutes per game and scored about 8 PPG shooting over 35% from 3 and getting more minutes as the year went on. Remember Koble was still here so Shurna's minutes were more limited than they likely would have been and based on a more normal starter 30 mpg, he would have been about 13-14 ppg. And based on the 37 mpg he had later, he would have been closer to 16.5ppg vs his 19.8 average. The signs were there

 

[Styre]

While we did not know he was going to be the all time leading scorer, he did play over 18 minutes per game and scored about 8 PPG shooting over 35% from 3 and getting more minutes as the year went on. Remember Koble was still here so Shurna's minutes were more limited than they likely would have been and based on a more normal starter 30 mpg, he would have been about 13-14 ppg. And based on the 37 mpg he had later, he would have been closer to 16.5ppg vs his 19.8 average. The signs were there

Yes, there were definitely signs as a freshman that he could develop into a great player. And then he did. He must have done that entirely on his own with no help from the coaching staff.

There are many legitimate reasons to criticize BC's tenure at NU. But this repeated idea that all of his players (except Nash and Hearn) failed to develop at all between their freshman and senior seasons is nonsense. Most college basketball players develop on a very gradual curve. It is rare to see a player be terrible as a freshman and develop into a dominant senior. It's rare to see a walk-on like Hearn develop into a full-time starter who makes the NBA. Players who don't develop at all usually end up transferring.

 

[Gladeskat]

Most college basketball players develop on a very gradual curve. It is rare to see a player be terrible as a freshman and develop into a dominant senior.

It's common for centers to start out slowly as freshmen and then develop into dominant players. I didn't see much center development during the last 5 years under Carmody when I started following NU basketball. I've been pleased with the center development under CCC. I look forward to Pardon having an excellent senior season for us next year.

 

[Styre]

It's common for centers to start out slowly as freshmen and then develop into dominant players. I didn't see much center development during the last 5 years under Carmody when I started following NU basketball. I've been pleased with the center development under CCC. I look forward to Pardon having an excellent senior season for us next year.

Sure, it's common for them to start out slowly, but not terribly. Pardon is obviously much better now than he was in his first year, but it was clear even then that he had a lot of upside, going back to that Nebraska game where he dominated in Lincoln. Compare to, say, Kyle Rowley, who started 28 games as a freshman, looked horrible, and spent the rest of his career at both NU and St. Mary's as a backup. And yes, center was BC's weakest area of development, but given that he was running the Princeton offense and not putting a lot of emphasis on defense, that's hardly surprising.

 

[Gladeskat]

Sure, it's common for them to start out slowly, but not terribly. Pardon is obviously much better now than he was in his first year, but it was clear even then that he had a lot of upside, going back to that Nebraska game where he dominated in Lincoln. Compare to, say, Kyle Rowley, who started 28 games as a freshman, looked horrible, and spent the rest of his career at both NU and St. Mary's as a backup. And yes, center was BC's weakest area of development, but given that he was running the Princeton offense and not putting a lot of emphasis on defense, that's hardly surprising.

No, I actually mean that they started out terribly. Kaminsky and Haap, Myers-Leonard, and Kent Benson come to mind. Pardon has improved considerably but is not a good example of such a transformation because he showed good instincts and skills as a freshman. Alex Olah is a better example.

There's no reason why a center can't play a huge role in the PO.

 

[Styre]

No, I actually mean that they started out terribly. Kaminsky and Haap, Myers-Leonard, and Kent Benson come to mind.

I think we're arguing different definitions of "terrible." I agree that center sees the most development of any position.

 

[ColumbusCatFan1]

There's no reason why a center can't play a huge role in the PO.

We saw flashes of what that could have looked like with Mirkovic. Unfortuntely, his heart wasn't in it.

 

[MysticCat]

We saw flashes of what that could have looked like with Mirkovic. Unfortuntely, his heart wasn't in it.

BC had 2 NBA level centers at Princeton. The PO was actually designed around the center. Couldn’t really get a great one here.

Jennings gets a bad rap, but if he’d have had one more year in the PO he would have been good. Tolic would have been good but he never got healthy for 10 days straight. Vince Scott was just too soft and didn’t care. Olah might have panned out but his shooting was brutal his first two years (although it did improve marginally). Luka... okay, nothing great.

We came a whisker from having Robbie Hummel, Shurna, Cobie, Juice and Nash as our starting five for multiple years.

That would have been awesome.

But Turner bodes we’ll for the next two years. He’s quite good, but also good in the ways CC needs- versatile on both ends, smart and mobile. Covers a lot of ground. Smarter than our graduating seniors (basketball wise). Not as selfish or mopey. Not gonna light it up, but if there’s enough other parts- really good (to great) player.

 

[NUera]

But Turner bodes we’ll for the next two years. He’s quite good, but also good in the ways CC needs- versatile on both ends, smart and mobile. Covers a lot of ground. Smarter than our graduating seniors (basketball wise). Not as selfish or mopey. Not gonna light it up, but if there’s enough other parts- really good (to great) player.

Glad to hear that. If this year showed anything, it's that we need a Sanjay-type who'll do all the little things AND keep the other players accountable via leadership-by-example.

 

[willycat]

BC had 2 NBA level centers at Princeton. The PO was actually designed around the center. Couldn’t really get a great one here.

Jennings gets a bad rap, but if he’d have had one more year in the PO he would have been good. Tolic would have been good but he never got healthy for 10 days straight. Vince Scott was just too soft and didn’t care. Olah might have panned out but his shooting was brutal his first two years (although it did improve marginally). Luka... okay, nothing great.

We came a whisker from having Robbie Hummel, Shurna, Cobie, Juice and Nash as our starting five for multiple years.

That would have been awesome.

But Turner bodes we’ll for the next two years. He’s quite good, but also good in the ways CC needs- versatile on both ends, smart and mobile. Covers a lot of ground. Smarter than our graduating seniors (basketball wise). Not as selfish or mopey. Not gonna light it up, but if there’s enough other parts- really good (to great) player.

it might had helped if Carmody had recruited the type of center the P offense requires. It's not a back to the basket guy but someone who acts like a PC and is a good passer. Got it from a good source that Scott was a back to the basket player and never played at the top of the line in high school. Wonder who was responsible for coaching the bigs in those 13 so-so seasons.

 

[MysticCat]

it might had helped if Carmody had recruited the type of center the P offense requires. It's not a back to the basket guy but someone who acts like a PC and is a good passer. Got it from a good source that Scott was a back to the basket player and never played at the top of the line in high school. Wonder who was responsible for coaching the bigs in those 13 so-so seasons.

He did recruit that “type,” just with varying degrees of success. And when MTI came along, well of course you bend your system to try to make that work (even though not a typical POC). Not sure what Luka”s deal was. I’ve heard his interest in basketball just waned over time.

Of course his Hs coach posted up 6”11, 235 pound Vince Scott, sleuth. You’ve been watching old tapes again, haven’t ya?

You must have one hell of a double secret deep state “source.” that cracked that case.

 

[WildcatWillie]

Got it from a good source that Scott was a back to the basket player and never played at the top of the line in high school. [/QUOTE]

I saw Scott in two high school games in which he never was in a high-post, passing role required by the PO offense. I do recall that he was perfect in free throws, at least 6-8 per game.

Limited sampling but I had high hopes at the time. Basketball's big men, I find, are hard to judge in their developmental years. I was once unimpressed by a tall Nigerian named Olajawon early in his college career, but he seemed to do pretty well later on.

 

[willycat]

He did recruit that “type,” just with varying degrees of success. And when MTI came along, well of course you bend your system to try to make that work (even though not a typical POC). Not sure what Luka”s deal was. I’ve heard his interest in basketball just waned over time.

Of course his Hs coach posted up 6”11, 235 pound Vince Scott, sleuth. You’ve been watching old tapes again, haven’t ya?

You must have one hell of a double secret deep state “source.” that cracked that case.

The kid never played at the high post in H.S. and yet super recruiter Carmody gets him a plays him up top. Good coaching, huh? Actually my 'secret deep state" source was a parent of one of Scotts teammates and had watched him many times in H.S.. You should stick with your Holy cross affliction and pay little or no attention to the "pretend president".

 

[MysticCat]

The kid never played at the high post in H.S. and yet super recruiter Carmody gets him a plays him up top. Good coaching, huh? Actually my 'secret deep state" source was a parent of one of Scotts teammates and had watched him many times in H.S.. You should stick with your Holy cross affliction and pay little or no attention to the "pretend president".

Wow, you went all James Bond on this scoop.

Reggie Hearn played center for 4 years in high school and “super coach,” made him a guard.

How’d that work out?

 

[DaCat]

Wow, you went all James Bond on this scoop.

Reggie Hearn played center for 4 years in high school and “super coach,” made him a guard.

How’d that work out?

Didn't take much for anyone to figure out that Reggie was not a Big 10 center at 6-5.

 

[Medill90]

No, I actually mean that they started out terribly. Kaminsky and Haap, Myers-Leonard, and Kent Benson come to mind. Pardon has improved considerably but is not a good example of such a transformation because he showed good instincts and skills as a freshman. Alex Olah is a better example.

There's no reason why a center can't play a huge role in the PO.

I thought Happ was decent as a frosh. Still isn't effective on defense unless the play drops in his lap, but he was a nice scorer as a frosh.

Agree on Pardon skill set coming in.

The overall point is a good one.

 

[Styre]

I thought Happ was decent as a frosh.

So did the Big Ten, as he was named the conference's Freshman of the Year. He was also named to the All-Defensive team his first two years.

 

[Gladeskat]

So did the Big Ten, as he was named the conference's Freshman of the Year. He was also named to the All-Defensive team his first two years.

OK, scratch Haap. I thought he redshirted his freshman year, though that might have been due to Kaminsky being a senior.

 

[Medill90]

OK, scratch Haap. I thought he redshirted his freshman year, though that might have been due to Kaminsky being a senior.

you're memory is correct

he was redshirted

and then he was freshman of the year

I had a senior moment and was thinking about the kid at Purdue

 

[Katatonic]

No one is disagreeing that recruiting improved after Hardy was brought on. But we were still pretty weak overall. Our best players were little recruited guys that played out well for us. Guys that fit into the system like Coble, Crawford and Shurna. Didn't they all start as FROSH? For the most part, guys did not improve much under BC. They either came in and started as Frosh and what they were as Frosh was pretty similar to what they were as SRs. Exceptions include Nash and Hearn.

As I had stated before, don't care so much about recruiting rankings compared to how good the players actually are; plus - had already listed a bunch of recruits (post Coble) that passed up on better offers to come to NU (granted, most of those guys didn't pan out - Rowley, Abrahamson, etc.).

But to say that guys didn't improve is kinda ridiculous.

Shurna, Juice and Crawford were much better players as upperclassmen than as frosh.

BMac's play his last 2 seasons actually regressed compared to his first 2 years - FG% down significantly, turnovers up.

So is this supposed to be proof that a PG can't improve his play under CC?

But how does that compare on the Regret scale to never making the NCAA Tournament? Kinda light, IMO.

Maybe I missed the BTN feature about Carmody's four NIT seasons.

Again, no one is taking anything away from what the 2016-17 team and CC accomplished, but are you saying that they couldn't or shouldn't have accomplished more?

Not even expecting to make the Dance twice, but just the post-season (NIT).

If the analogy to the 80's ATL Braves didn't do it for you, then how 'bout if the '96 FB 'Cats (returning most of the talent from the '95 team) didn't even make a bowl?

Now, that wouldn't take anything away from that great run to the Rose Bowl (that one great/historical season), but I'll bet members of the '96 team would have had regrets about not living up to their level of play/expectations (which is what BMac, himself, has been stating).

So should we only expect 1 NCAA/post-season appearance from the incoming class of Nance, Lathon, etc.?

Take PSU BB - fans are disappointed that the team didn't quite do enough this season and had their bubble hopes popped.

Sure, the NIT isn't exactly what they (or the players) were hoping for, but that core class (if it stays together) has 2 more years.

Think they would be disappointed if they don't get 2 more post-seasons out of them w/ 1 being the NCAAs.