Rapolas Ivanauskas commits!

[Sec.112]

I'm not sure Billy C owes NU anything. He gave a lot. In general, he sacrificed his career to try and get NU over the hump. And despite the salary, he wasn't given a whole lot of support.

Also, he was always all about the people in the locker room, so I think it's consistent that he departed quietly.

It would be unfortunate (and pretty petty on the side of whoever the aggressor is) if there wasn't a Billy C Day of Love in the next five years or so.

OTOH, it's been two years, and there are still regular snarky comments coming from the Ozzie Guillen Jr. of the family, so that tells you so something.

 

[hdhntr1]

I'm not sure Billy C owes NU anything. He gave a lot. In general, he sacrificed his career to try and get NU over the hump. And despite the salary, he wasn't given a whole lot of support.

Also, he was always all about the people in the locker room, so I think it's consistent that he departed quietly.

It would be unfortunate (and pretty petty on the side of whoever the aggressor is) if there wasn't a Billy C Day of Love in the next five years or so.

OTOH, it's been two years, and there are still regular snarky comments coming from the Ozzie Guillen Jr. of the family, so that tells you so something.

Sacrificed his career? He did not like to recruit and without that, hard to have much of a career in CBB. Could he have stayed at Princeton? Sure but not sure that is better than what he had.

 

[Medill90]

Sacrificed his career? He did not like to recruit and without that, hard to have much of a career in CBB. Could he have stayed at Princeton? Sure but not sure that is better than what he had.

I thought about writing the same type of comment ("sacrificed his career...") in my post but didn't want to start a forest fire.

I agree with general thought....walking away from any D1 school where you've had any success to go coach men's basketball at NU in 2000 or whenever it was boggles the mind. Why do it? (rhetorical please) And he stuck with it for 13 years.

He went all in on a shitty situation.

The fact that things had shifted sufficiently -- and I'm not writing about the facilities -- to where Collins saw it as attractive and doable speaks volumes.

 

[Catreporter]

I really like the Chris Collins hire but I don't think he comes here without Carmody showing that you could actually have success here. Yes, he failed to get us "over the hump" but I just remember how Kevin O'Neill left this program and I am thankful to Bill for what he did here. Can't stand even watching that snake O'Neill on TV. He was supposed to be a great recruiter but other than Jitim Young and Tavaras Hardy, he brought in some of the worst players I've ever seen here (I can't even remember the names but two of them transferred out after Frosh seasons). We were at ROCK BOTTOM when he left. Never would have dreamed back then of having a couple 20-win seasons.

 

[EvanstonCat]

I really like the Chris Collins hire but I don't think he comes here without Carmody showing that you could actually have success here. Yes, he failed to get us "over the hump" but I just remember how Kevin O'Neill left this program and I am thankful to Bill for what he did here. Can't stand even watching that snake O'Neill on TV. He was supposed to be a great recruiter but other than Jitim Young and Tavaras Hardy, he brought in some of the worst players I've ever seen here (I can't even remember the names but two of them transferred out after Frosh seasons). We were at ROCK BOTTOM when he left. Never would have dreamed back then of having a couple 20-win seasons.

Who knows, maybe, maybe not.

Carmody did what he did at NU. It wasn't terrible, neither was it great. He didn't do what he was brought to NU to do, but he did leave it in a better place than he found it.

It is naturally with mixed feelings that we part ways with him. We should thank him for his contributions and wish him the best of luck with his future endeavors.

With that, I would think we would be ready to move on. Please.

 

[EvanstonCat]

I'm not sure Billy C owes NU anything. He gave a lot. In general, he sacrificed his career to try and get NU over the hump. And despite the salary, he wasn't given a whole lot of support.

Also, he was always all about the people in the locker room, so I think it's consistent that he departed quietly.

It would be unfortunate (and pretty petty on the side of whoever the aggressor is) if there wasn't a Billy C Day of Love in the next five years or so.

OTOH, it's been two years, and there are still regular snarky comments coming from the Ozzie Guillen Jr. of the family, so that tells you so something.

Please. On one hand I agree with you that BC owes us nothing. I am not offended by his lack of a polite word in leaving NU.

OTOH, I laugh at the idea that there should be a BC Day of Love in the next five years or ever. He wasn't terrible, but he sure wasn't universally beloved nor was it a mistake to fire him and part ways with him for the betterment of the program. No, he owes NU nothing, but neither does NU owe him a damned thing. We don't even owe him a polite thanks for his contributions and a wish for good luck any more than he owes us a polite word of thanks for paying him millions over 13 years, though it would reflect well on us (and him) to do so.

 

[Sec.112]

Sacrificed his career?

Yes, sacrificed his career.

On the right day, I'll be the first person to tell anyone who will listen how many different ways Billy C did his job with mediocrity.

However, he was given ABSOLUTELY nothing for support. I think the length of his tenure alone showed incredible devotion to trying to shape up the program.

Could he have done more? Absolutely. Could the school have done more to get him over the hump? I'll give you 260 million reasons why the school treated him and the program like garbage.

And yet he stuck around for 13 years ... the key phase of his career.

No matter what you think of the job Carmody did, ask yourself how many big-conference coaches at that level would have stuck it out without a single sign of a capital improvement.

I'm not in love with with how Billy C conducted business at all. But I sure do respect the time he put in.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

And yet he stuck around for 13 years ... the key phase of his career.

No matter what you think of the job Carmody did, ask yourself how many big-conference coaches at that level would have stuck it out without a single sign of a capital improvement.

With the lack of expectations and the $$ he was making?? He had a million reasons to stick around...and I believe MOST coaches of a similar work ethic would have done the same...

 

[hdhntr1]

Yes, sacrificed his career.

On the right day, I'll be the first person to tell anyone who will listen how many different ways Billy C did his job with mediocrity.

However, he was given ABSOLUTELY nothing for support. I think the length of his tenure alone showed incredible devotion to trying to shape up the program.

Could he have done more? Absolutely. Could the school have done more to get him over the hump? I'll give you 260 million reasons why the school treated him and the program like garbage.

And yet he stuck around for 13 years ... the key phase of his career.

No matter what you think of the job Carmody did, ask yourself how many big-conference coaches at that level would have stuck it out without a single sign of a capital improvement.

I'm not in love with with how Billy C conducted business at all. But I sure do respect the time he put in.

While he was and may have remained successful at Princeton, there was little there that approached the necessity for recruiting required at higher levels. With his lack of enthusiasm for recruiting, exactly where do you feel he would have been substantially more successful than he was at anything higher than a one bid conference? And guess what. Those one bid conferences don't exactly pay top dollar or provide the level of support that even NU provided. Anything at a higher level and it is likely that he would have been let go about 6 years earlier than he was here. So again, I ask, what career he sacrificed?

He accomplished a fair amount at NU and gave us stability and a descent foundation and for that we should thank him (but without the patience that NU showed, even that would not have occurred) But he had reached a plateau and unfortunately, that plateau was still too low.

 

[Styre]

Anything at a higher level and it is likely that he would have been let go about 6 years earlier than he was here. So again, I ask, what career he sacrificed?

Yes, but it's equally possible that he would have had considerably more success had he been at a better program. Carmody is hardly the first coach to lose a significant part of his career to Northwestern basketball -- there's a Hall of Famer in that group, for heaven sakes.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Yes, sacrificed his career.

On the right day, I'll be the first person to tell anyone who will listen how many different ways Billy C did his job with mediocrity.

However, he was given ABSOLUTELY nothing for support. I think the length of his tenure alone showed incredible devotion to trying to shape up the program.

Could he have done more? Absolutely. Could the school have done more to get him over the hump? I'll give you 260 million reasons why the school treated him and the program like garbage.

And yet he stuck around for 13 years ... the key phase of his career.

No matter what you think of the job Carmody did, ask yourself how many big-conference coaches at that level would have stuck it out without a single sign of a capital improvement.

I'm not in love with with how Billy C conducted business at all. But I sure do respect the time he put in.

I respect the time he put in, but he sacrificed his career inasmuch as anyone has sacrificed their career in taking a job. Hell, he got something between 10-20 million USD with the sacrifice. If you can pay me that much, I'll gladly sacrifice my career. As a result of sacrificing his career, he no longer has to work for a living. And for 10-20 million USD in a low pressure job that allows you to be retained despite a lack of results for 13 years, I don't know too many people who would have left. It's not like BC had a ton of job offers that he turned down. Hell, he didn't even get offered anything after he was available until 2 years later, and with Holy Cross. Giving a guy 10-20 million over the course of 13 years of futility is not treating him like garbage. Tell me how much more is the program supporting Chris Collins? The video scoreboards? Methinks you make too much of his sacrifice and the hand he was dealt.

And another thing. BC is not a big-conference coach. He never really was a fit for this level, and that's why he is coaching at a level more commensurate to his skills and talents.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Yes, but it's equally possible that he would have had considerably more success had he been at a better program. Carmody is hardly the first coach to lose a significant part of his career to Northwestern basketball -- there's a Hall of Famer in that group, for heaven sakes.

No he would not have had more success. He would have gutted recruiting and completely alienated the boosters. Recruiting is the lifeblood of any program, especially in the Big 5. You can be a mediocre coach and a great recruiter and win at this level. You cannot be a mediocre 9or terrible) recruiter and a great coach (on one side of the ball) and expect to win. Bill Carmody showed that.

 

[Sec.112]

Hdhntr, we've been down the road 1000 times of where he went wrong. That's not my purpose here. The nails are in his NU coffin.

Plain and simple, he could have left and he didn't. And he had plenty of reason to split.

If you're going to use money as his main motivation for staying, then I think you're missing what motivates Carmody. It's pretty obvious that money isn't high on that list.

What career did he sacrifice? A winning career. Two or three tournament bids in those same one-bid conferences that don't pay top dollar.

If you don't think that's a sacrifice ...

 

[Styre]

No he would not have had more success. He would have gutted recruiting and completely alienated the boosters.

LOL okay as long as you're being reasonable about it.

 

[Gladeskat]

He accomplished a fair amount at NU and gave us stability and a descent foundation and for that we should thank him.

Sort of like a ski jump? or jumping off a tall, stable building?

(sorry...couldn't resist)

 

[hdhntr1]

Yes, but it's equally possible that he would have had considerably more success had he been at a better program. Carmody is hardly the first coach to lose a significant part of his career to Northwestern basketball -- there's a Hall of Famer in that group, for heaven sakes.

He did not like to recruit. There is no program at the top levels of D1 that would not require that. At least at NU, he was given 13 years and he eventually got Hardy that helped the recruiting enough to get him to the 20 win seasons. I do not know of anywhere else that he would have been given more than

Yes, sacrificed his career.

On the right day, I'll be the first person to tell anyone who will listen how many different ways Billy C did his job with mediocrity.

However, he was given ABSOLUTELY nothing for support. I think the length of his tenure alone showed incredible devotion to trying to shape up the program.

Could he have done more? Absolutely. Could the school have done more to get him over the hump? I'll give you 260 million reasons why the school treated him and the program like garbage.

And yet he stuck around for 13 years ... the key phase of his career.

No matter what you think of the job Carmody did, ask yourself how many big-conference coaches at that level would have stuck it out without a single sign of a capital improvement.

I'm not in love with with how Billy C conducted business at all. But I sure do respect the time he put in.

 

[hdhntr1]

He did not like to recruit. There is no program at the top levels of D1 that would not require that. At least at NU, he was given 13 years and he eventually got Hardy that helped the recruiting enough to get him to the 20 win seasons. I do not know of anywhere else that he would have been given more than

He was given a lot mo

Hdhntr, we've been down the road 1000 times of where he went wrong. That's not my purpose here. The nails are in his NU coffin.

Plain and simple, he could have left and he didn't. And he had plenty of reason to split.

If you're going to use money as his main motivation for staying, then I think you're missing what motivates Carmody. It's pretty obvious that money isn't high on that list.

What career did he sacrifice? A winning career. Two or three tournament bids in those same one-bid conferences that don't pay top dollar.

If you don't think that's a sacrifice ...

It isn't just the money but it does include being able to compete at the highest level and the prestige of being a BIG HC. . Tell me , after the 2006-7 and 2007-8 season, how many other top conference programs would have been ready to bring him in? How many would have let him go then? NU was patient and both sides were rewarded for that patience. But other than that, when exactly was he going to move on and to where? And even those one bid conferences require recruiting more than Princeton. And in those conferences, would he have gotten someone like Hardy? At the end of the day, it was a fair deal for both sides.

 

[hdhntr1]

Yes, but it's equally possible that he would have had considerably more success had he been at a better program. Carmody is hardly the first coach to lose a significant part of his career to Northwestern basketball -- there's a Hall of Famer in that group, for heaven sakes.

Where exactly would he have had that higher success? They all require recruiting and the "better: programs would have had far less patience than NU.

 

[Styre]

He did not like to recruit. There is no program at the top levels of D1 that would not require that. At least at NU, he was given 13 years and he eventually got Hardy that helped the recruiting enough to get him to the 20 win seasons.

My point is that you don't know what he would have done had he been hired anywhere other than what was, at the time, the worst, most difficult job in Division I basketball.

No, he wasn't all about recruiting, but can we please not turn him into a caricature? It wasn't like he sat in his office all day, obstinately refusing to spend even one single moment on recruiting. And had he been at a better program, he would have had better assistants and a better program reputation to help him out.

 

[realcatfan]

My point is that you don't know what he would have done had he been hired anywhere other than what was, at the time, the worst, most difficult job in Division I basketball.

No, he wasn't all about recruiting, but can we please not turn him into a caricature? It wasn't like he sat in his office all day, obstinately refusing to spend even one single moment on recruiting. And had he been at a better program, he would have had better assistants and a better program reputation to help him out.

We also don't know whether Bill Carmody would've been offered an easier job if he stayed at Princeton or if he would've stayed at NU had he been offered an easier job. While I agree it's inappropriate to say Bill Carmody was some caricature that sat in his office and din't recruit, it's also wrong to say things like Bill Carmody sacrificed his career and a chance at winning to be at NU and that Phillips and the administration actively worked to screw him over so they could bring in their guy. Maybe the best Carmody was ever going to do is get to coach fine young men at Northwestern and make millions of dollars.

 

[willycat]

My point is that you don't know what he would have done had he been hired anywhere other than what was, at the time, the worst, most difficult job in Division I basketball.

No, he wasn't all about recruiting, but can we please not turn him into a caricature? It wasn't like he sat in his office all day, obstinately refusing to spend even one single moment on recruiting. And had he been at a better program, he would have had better assistants and a better program reputation to help him out.

Styre and just why do you think that the only Div.I job Carmody was offered, in your words was at the worst program in Div.I. Better assistants were out there but he brought his friends from the Ivy League along who didn't have any connections to the Big Ten or coaches in the Chicago area.

 

[Styre]

Styre and just why do you think that the only Div.I job Carmody was offered, in your words was at the worst program in Div.I. Better assistants were out there but he brought his friends from the Ivy League along who didn't have any connections to the Big Ten or coaches in the Chicago area.

You do recall that Carmody was hired about 2 months before the season started because O'Neill abruptly quit the program, right? Lots of great assistant coaches waiting for phone calls in mid-September.

 

[Medill90]

I don't think of Craig Robinson as Ivy League. I think of him as a fellow South Sider with a pretty good Chicago network.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

I don't think of Craig Robinson as Ivy League. I think of him as a fellow South Sider with a pretty good Chicago network.

Robinson hadn't even been in the coaching scene for something like 7 years. He was a poor choice for a local assistant and it showed in the recruiting department. In fact, recruiting was really poor until Hardy got the job, then it improved a little...though not enough to ever get much depth and we were still landing talent like Ajou and Turner (and walkons were playing prominent roles).

 

[EvanstonCat]

You do recall that Carmody was hired about 2 months before the season started because O'Neill abruptly quit the program, right? Lots of great assistant coaches waiting for phone calls in mid-September.

Promising assistants from mid-majors would leave 2 months before the season or really at any time to join a B1G program for more exposure and more pay. I don't think that's much of an excuse. Hell, Bill Carmody, a HEAD COACH left Princeton abruptly to take on the NU job.

 

[EvanstonCat]

My point is that you don't know what he would have done had he been hired anywhere other than what was, at the time, the worst, most difficult job in Division I basketball.

No, he wasn't all about recruiting, but can we please not turn him into a caricature? It wasn't like he sat in his office all day, obstinately refusing to spend even one single moment on recruiting. And had he been at a better program, he would have had better assistants and a better program reputation to help him out.

Well, at the end of the day it is probably pointless to speculate. You're being no more reasonable in your projections and hypotheticals than me. The only thing we know is that at NU, as imposing a challenge as you may believe it to be, he failed to bring us to the level that was very reasonably expected - on one hand you could paint as a unprecedented height as no one at NU has ever achieved it, and on the other hand, with equal or more reason one can argue that this is a very minimum and reasonable standard achieved by all but a very small handful of Division I programs, and by all Big 5 programs including those with equal academic standards to NU. Lowering the standard ought to be inconceivable in that context. In the end, he was fired because he couldn't get the job done even given 13 years. Let's hope the current coach does a better job, or else in a few years (and preferably not 13), we should fire him and try our hand with the next guy and hope he is the Gary Barnett for hoops.

 

[Medill90]

"The only thing we know is that at NU, as imposing a challenge as you may believe it to be, he failed to bring us to the level that was very reasonably expected - on one hand you could paint as a unprecedented height as no one at NU has ever achieved it, and on the other hand, with equal or more reason one can argue that this is a very minimum and reasonable standard achieved by all but a very small handful of Division I programs, and by all Big 5 programs including those with equal academic standards to NU."

Now that is a sentence. I'm not going to try to read it. I'm not going to to try to understand it. I'm just going to appreciate it. And it got three "likes" which is friggin amazing.

People know when they're in the shadow of greatness.

 

[hdhntr1]

My point is that you don't know what he would have done had he been hired anywhere other than what was, at the time, the worst, most difficult job in Division I basketball.

No, he wasn't all about recruiting, but can we please not turn him into a caricature? It wasn't like he sat in his office all day, obstinately refusing to spend even one single moment on recruiting. And had he been at a better program, he would have had better assistants and a better program reputation to help him out.

All I am saying is that he did not sacrifice his career. It was a step up from Princeton by all normal standards. More prestige, opportunity to work with better athletes, scholarships to offer, more assistants, more money, etc. Overall, he did well enough with the restrictions he had (many of which were self imposed) Not saying he did not recruit, just that it was not his forte and he did not really love it. Originally he got a couple descent guys by going overseas in VV, Hachad and Parker and even getting Thompson to come home but after that, his success in that department dropped off quite a bit and did not really improve till Hardy was brought on board. Have heard plenty of stories that he did not embrace it. Maybe he had less tolerance for it as he got older.

Just saying, with his attitude toward recruiting, I do not see him being more successful at any other major conference school. And most likely, anywhere else, he would have been gone after the 2006-7 and 2007-8 seasons. That NU was patient was rewarding for both sides. But likely he would not have gotten that chance anywhere else.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

I understand what Sec112 is trying to say, I just think saying "sacrificed his career" might be a little strong. BC definitely took on a challenge coming here, nobody would argue that. That said, the job clearly appealed to him, just like they often do for people who move away from something that's been good to them in order to head-on a new project. Every new job has it's challenges, Carmody obviously thought he could succeed here or he wouldn't have ever made the move in the first place.

 

[ColumbusCatFan1]

"Promising assistants from mid-majors would leave 2 months before the season or really at any time to join a B1G program."

NU basketball, at the turn of the century, was a "program in the BIG", not "a BIG program".

There were multiple instances where coaches were warned of the coaching graveyard that was NU basketball. Jim Calhoun (via your guy Bobby Knight) being perhaps the most famous example.

At the end of the Carmody regime, while not considered an ideal gig, it was proven that NU hoops could be raised to a 20 game winner and regular NIT contender. That's quite a difference, IMHO.

 

[IGNORE]

Fun thread. Just re-read. Lots of thoughts about RI, Benson and CCC recruiting. Your welcome

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Fun thread. Just re-read. Lots of thoughts about RI, Benson and CCC recruiting. Your welcome

1) Whose welcome?

2) "Local big man commits to Northwestern over offers from Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas State, Nebraska, Penn State, Purdue, and Vanderbilt... oh hey, look, a local wing commits to Northwestern over offers from Creighton, Iowa, and Purdue... these seem like good things!" Doesn't seem so ridiculous, does it?

 

[TheC]

Fun thread. Just re-read. Lots of thoughts about RI, Benson and CCC recruiting. Your welcome

What argument do you think you're winning? NU fans were happy to get highly ranked recruits and dreaming of big things? I see nothing unusual about that. Are you taking delight in the fact that they didn't pan out and we're all disappointed, but still hoping tomorrow is a better day? That seems rather pathological.

 

[IGNORE]

1) Whose welcome?

2) "Local big man commits to Northwestern over offers from Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas State, Nebraska, Penn State, Purdue, and Vanderbilt... oh hey, look, a local wing commits to Northwestern over offers from Creighton, Iowa, and Purdue... these seem like good things!" Doesn't seem so ridiculous, does it?

And now he is dancing.

 

[Max_Power]

Fun thread. Just re-read. Lots of thoughts about RI, Benson and CCC recruiting. Your welcome [/QUOTE

Just added you to my ignore list where you join Wrassler. Peace.

 

[IGNORE]

What argument do you think you're winning? NU fans were happy to get highly ranked recruits and dreaming of big things? I see nothing unusual about that. Are you taking delight in the fact that they didn't pan out and we're all disappointed, but still hoping tomorrow is a better day? That seems rather pathological.

I suppose the point is the most recent banter around here touting all these young guys that have not proven a thing is identical to the banter for Benson and RI. They are all game changers. Until they aren't. Then they never belonged and we are better off without them.

The program has some problems. With some luck, maybe one of the young guys pans out really well. But currently, we have guys bailing out quickly. We have a shrinking roster. And next year looks like a disaster at this point.

It would be great if CCC sat down with Teddy or Lou and finally gave some information. Why? Because they want our support, they want our money, they want our attendance. And how hard is it to give hour for an interview and answer some tough questions without coach speak?

 

[NJCat]

Old Rap is lighting it up against UT......

 

[gocatsgo2003]

I suppose the point is the most recent banter around here touting all these young guys that have not proven a thing is identical to the banter for Benson and RI. They are all game changers. Until they aren't. Then they never belonged and we are better off without them.

The program has some problems. With some luck, maybe one of the young guys pans out really well. But currently, we have guys bailing out quickly. We have a shrinking roster. And next year looks like a disaster at this point.

It would be great if CCC sat down with Teddy or Lou and finally gave some information. Why? Because they want our support, they want our money, they want our attendance. And how hard is it to give hour for an interview and answer some tough questions without coach speak?

Donate enough and they'll actually sit down with you themselves.

 

[IGNORE]

Old Rap is lighting it up against UT......

You must not be watching. Kid can't catch a break. Something went wrong with his contacts and he doesn't have another pair. Never got a chance. He is out for the game.

 

[Jeffrey Cat]

I suppose the point is the most recent banter around here touting all these young guys that have not proven a thing is identical to the banter for Benson and RI. They are all game changers. Until they aren't. Then they never belonged and we are better off without them.

The program has some problems. With some luck, maybe one of the young guys pans out really well. But currently, we have guys bailing out quickly. We have a shrinking roster. And next year looks like a disaster at this point.

It would be great if CCC sat down with Teddy or Lou and finally gave some information. Why? Because they want our support, they want our money, they want our attendance. And how hard is it to give hour for an interview and answer some tough questions without coach speak?

Am I correct in assuming you are a long time season ticket holder in basketball and attend the majority of the games or more.