Sanctions on the Patriots
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Definitely not insignificant. I assume Brady forfeits his pay for those four games, which is about $2M.
It should've been three plus the next Patriots playoff game.Too severe
not severe enough
or just right?
If we agree that he was responsible and we agree that an elite QB who knew better gained a competitive advantage on a team that has previously been implicated in cheating scandals...and the team eventually won the damn Super Bowl, then the message the NFL is sending as far as I'm concerned is CHEAT YOUR ASS OFF because it's worth it.
I feel absolutely the same way about college athletics...we react to a one or two-year bowl ban like the hammer has been dropped. Two years removed from a bowl ban and Ohio State is the reigning national champ. Cheating is worth it, and until an organized athletic body proves otherwise with stiffer penalties, we are just suckers for playing by the rules almost everyone else considers guidelines.
If I were the NFL, I'd ban Brady for at least half a season, require a public apology, and forfeit the Super Bowl - as in the Pats organization has to return the trophy and dismantle any public references to winning, because they got there under the same circumstances as using an ineligible player in a college game. Maybe they would've won without cheating, but we'll never know. The punishment has to deter future incidents, or it's worthless.
I feel absolutely the same way about college athletics...we react to a one or two-year bowl ban like the hammer has been dropped. Two years removed from a bowl ban and Ohio State is the reigning national champ. Cheating is worth it, and until an organized athletic body proves otherwise with stiffer penalties, we are just suckers for playing by the rules almost everyone else considers guidelines.
If I were the NFL, I'd ban Brady for at least half a season, require a public apology, and forfeit the Super Bowl - as in the Pats organization has to return the trophy and dismantle any public references to winning, because they got there under the same circumstances as using an ineligible player in a college game. Maybe they would've won without cheating, but we'll never know. The punishment has to deter future incidents, or it's worthless.
None of the above. It will be appealed and will not hold up. This would be laughed out of a courtroom and is a sad joke. If a suspension of any kind is imposed, it would be a truly sad day for the NFL, irrespective of whether you are a Patriots fan or not. "More likely than not" meets the criminal standard in zero jurisdictions. I mean does the issue of marginally deflated footballs, (including at least one of the Ravens), compare in any way to the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson beatings of women and children. Give me break!
Too severe
not severe enough
or just right?
Geez, tough break for poor Tom. That would leave him with just $6M for the remaining 12 games. Maybe he can get a part-time job driving for Uber when he is suspended.
It's a rule that the NFL cares so much about they don't tests the balls. If the NFL cared about this rule, before the game, an official would take the balls measure the PSI and adjust them. They don't do that.
In 2012, the Chargers had their ball boys use towels that had a sticky substance on it apparently to make the ball easier to catch. They got caught and the Chargers were fined $20,000. How do the two offenses differ to the tune of 50x the fine for the team 2 draft picks, and the Brady suspension? Doesn't make sense.
In 2012, the Chargers had their ball boys use towels that had a sticky substance on it apparently to make the ball easier to catch. They got caught and the Chargers were fined $20,000. How do the two offenses differ to the tune of 50x the fine for the team 2 draft picks, and the Brady suspension? Doesn't make sense.
realcatfan,
Excellent points, and your comments are right on the nose. There is an excellent internet article on this subject (Yahoo Sports) which points out the absurdity of this whole business, making 5 points which are essentially irrefutable
I thought they DID test the balls before the game? I thought that the guy who took the balls into the bathroom was coming from the referee room after they tested the balls?
http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/22/deflategate-video-how-nfl-officials-check-game-ball-pressure/
Not sure what RCF was referring to when he said the NFL doesn't check the balls.
At any rate, you would think the teams would supply the game balls to the refs before the game, they refs would test them, and they would keep possession of them until game time. Seems pretty obvious if this was a big deal. I guarantee that the NFL changes their protocol in 2015.
He is being suspended and fined. It is the equivalent fo a criminal proceeding. Even if it were a civil proceeding, however, the evidence would not survive a motion for summary judgment. This is absolutely ludicrous.
I agree with No Chores. It will be appealed Brady will avoid the suspension. The Patriots sanctions will be enforced and nobody will admit any knowledge of what actually happened.
The evidence is pretty compelling, and paints Brady in a poor light. He could've come clean four months ago, but, "yeah, i coached the ball boys to cheat on my behalf, but, geez, that's not a big deal" isn't the most compelling defense. I don't know what's worse - being caught and admitting it, or being caught and asking your dad to speak on your behalf.
I bet he didn't even give those working stiffs any Uggs, either.
If the pressure in the balls doesn't matter, why would you alter it?
Brady was absolutely involved in altering air pressure, against the rule, because he believed it gave him an edge. Isn't that the highest crime against capital-s Sport?
I bet he didn't even give those working stiffs any Uggs, either.
If the pressure in the balls doesn't matter, why would you alter it?
Brady was absolutely involved in altering air pressure, against the rule, because he believed it gave him an edge. Isn't that the highest crime against capital-s Sport?
I mean, not really. It's an NFL disciplinary proceeding...there's no beyond a reasonable doubt standard here. Goodell can do whatever he basically wants, then the NFLPA will appeal, and then an actual decision will be made. Mostly likely it will lead to fewer games that Brady will miss.
And you really don't think there's a triable issue of fact here? I think that's a bit much...plenty of evidence that Brady had something to do with deflating footballs. Whether that's a big deal or not is a different issue.
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Brady was absolutely involved in altering air pressure, against the rule, because he believed it gave him an edge. Isn't that the highest crime against capital-s Sport?
Sorry, but where is this proven? Look, the balls were below standard, the Patriots deserved some punishment, but I have seen zero evidence that Brady had knowledge or instructed anyone to deflate the balls. I am sure he can keep the air pressure at whatever he wants in practice. Maybe the equipment guys know he likes them a certain pressure and did it on their own. Point is the punishment is excessive when based on circumstantial evidence. How many games do players get for PED's? Is that an unfair advantage? Is there a reasonable doubt they cheated?
Our boy, Goodell is making Brady an example that he can come down hard on the face of the NFL. Commissioner Discipline is an equal opportunity warden that treats star QB with heavy hand just like domestic abusers, drug users, and other felons.
Sorry, but where is this proven? Look, the balls were below standard, the Patriots deserved some punishment, but I have seen zero evidence that Brady had knowledge or instructed anyone to deflate the balls. I am sure he can keep the air pressure at whatever he wants in practice. Maybe the equipment guys know he likes them a certain pressure and did it on their own. Point is the punishment is excessive when based on circumstantial evidence. How many games do players get for PED's? Is that an unfair advantage? Is there a reasonable doubt they cheated?
Our boy, Goodell is making Brady an example that he can come down hard on the face of the NFL. Commissioner Discipline is an equal opportunity warden that treats star QB with heavy hand just like domestic abusers, drug users, and other felons.
1. I agree that Goodell is a fraud and a tool and he doles out punishment like a Catholic nun. It is pathetic the way that the NFL published these letters to the recipients of punishment. Goodell's favorite thing is punishment.
2. This ain't no court of law. Obviously the PA will appeal, but this isn't court and "reasonable doubt" doesn't apply. "More likely than not" is substantial, as would be "he looked at me wrong", or "he beat his child but was determined to be not guilty but I still don't think we should support beating the crap out of kids that a star RB plays 'dad' to for 4 days a year."
3. I think you should read the linked article. My favorite part:
"After not communicating by telephone or text for more than six months (according to data retrieved from Jastremski‟s cell phone), Brady and Jastremski spoke twice by telephone on January 19 (calls lasting a total of 25 minutes and 2 seconds), twice on January 20 (calls lasting a total of 9 minutes and 55 seconds) and twice on January 21 (calls lasting a total of 20 minutes and 52 seconds) before Jastremski surrendered his cell phone to the Patriots later that day for forensic imaging."
4. Brady was involved. Reasonable people would have no doubt. Certainly, "more likely than not."
5. Note: The entire roster of the Seattle Seahawks also cheats. Jimmy Graham has probably put on 25 pounds of muscle since being traded there.
http://deadspin.com/tom-brady-threw-those-poor-ball-deflating-jamokes-under-1702608069
[Can you no longer give your link a name?]
2. This ain't no court of law. Obviously the PA will appeal, but this isn't court and "reasonable doubt" doesn't apply. "More likely than not" is substantial, as would be "he looked at me wrong", or "he beat his child but was determined to be not guilty but I still don't think we should support beating the crap out of kids that a star RB plays 'dad' to for 4 days a year."
3. I think you should read the linked article. My favorite part:
"After not communicating by telephone or text for more than six months (according to data retrieved from Jastremski‟s cell phone), Brady and Jastremski spoke twice by telephone on January 19 (calls lasting a total of 25 minutes and 2 seconds), twice on January 20 (calls lasting a total of 9 minutes and 55 seconds) and twice on January 21 (calls lasting a total of 20 minutes and 52 seconds) before Jastremski surrendered his cell phone to the Patriots later that day for forensic imaging."
4. Brady was involved. Reasonable people would have no doubt. Certainly, "more likely than not."
5. Note: The entire roster of the Seattle Seahawks also cheats. Jimmy Graham has probably put on 25 pounds of muscle since being traded there.
http://deadspin.com/tom-brady-threw-those-poor-ball-deflating-jamokes-under-1702608069
[Can you no longer give your link a name?]
Exactly what I expected. I had projected 3 to 4 games suspended for Brady (rationale: a compromised figure between what the extremes wanted); 1 million dollar fine to the Patriots (rationale: big enough to sound like a lot but small enough to hardly matter in the big picture); loss of two draft picks (rationale: had to be something meaningful and which could be a give away on appeal just like Penn State was able to whittle their punishment down.)
Brady will enjoy a nice little vacation, albeit without pay in the short term [I am sure the Patriots organization will find a nice way to make it up to him for in effect impliedly falling on his sword by not confessing and thus not embarrassing those higher up with the inevitable questions that would have otherwise followed]; the owner and coach have something to continue to publicly cry about with the one million dollar fine so they can play the martyr card, and the draft picks loss will likely be mitigated on appeal anyway.
I completely agree with Cats320 on this one. It's pretty evident that Brady cheated and then lied about it. The only reason Brady is so indignant is that he has probably been doing this for a long time. While all of this evidence is circumstantial and would not hold up in any court of law, the NFL does not need to hold it self to that standard. Maintaining the integrity of the game is critical for the continued success of the sport and that is why I believe the NFL was absolutely correct in administering this punishment even if one wants to argue that the infraction had little bearing on the outcome of that game.
Ok, lets accept that this is not a criminal case, even though an argument could be made that it is quasi-criminal in nature. At the very least it is the equivalent of a civil action, and the evidence here is so thin that I would expect Brady to win in court at least 9 out of 10 times. To say that something is "more probable than not" without adequate evidence to support it is meaningless. The conclusion that Brady "knew" is little more than conjecture. I would be happy, though, to hear the thoughts of other lawyers on the Board.
This isn't going to end up in a court of any kind. The NFL is governed by its own rules and regulations while enjoying anti-trust exemption. While not a lawyer myself, I'm pretty sure that means that they can basically do what they want so long as it fits within their governing documents/principles.
I wouldn't be so sure. If I was Kraft, I would be filing a lawsuit against the NFL. Al Davis did it.
Well the NFL can't do everything that they want given that this will be appealed and an independent arbitrator will be looking at it.
While technically true, the independent arbitrator will be judging whether the NFL correctly applied their own rules, not local, state, or federal regulations. That's what I meant.
gocats,
Not quite correct. Nobody can be deprived of property without due process of law. An appeal would be heard by an arbitrator who will make that determination, and there is always a possibility of court action.
Did you read the report? What exactly do you know about the evidence? Did you see the text exchanges? Did you see that Brady refused to turn over his phone, etc. and cooperate with the investigation?
If this were to go to any type of court action, Brady would actually be forced to cooperate and then we would actually see the entire scope of the evidence. This suspension is just as much for the fact that Brady refused to cooperate with the process. That's probably because the harder we look, the deeper the hole goes.
The fact that all players consent to an arbitration process severely limits any recourse they have when suspended or "deprived of property."
I don't know any more about the evidence than that which was reported in the press, which was wholly inadequate and speculative, in my view. If the matter is arbitrated, the NFL will almost certainly have to come up with more compelling evidence than mere conjecture. Of course, your comment that "the harder we look the deeper the hole goes" is not the least bit speculative.
Of course, but the same is true in many commercial contracts where the parties agree to submit disputes to binding arbitration. The NFL will have the burden of proof, and I have seen nothing thus far which will enable them to carry that burden.
Compare that with Chicago and the guys that fall on the sword to protect the system actually go to jail but they get taken care of when they get out.
Right 2011 and Brady would have to swear to tell the truth blah, blah, blah. Contempt anyone.
NoChores: "I would be happy, though, to hear the thoughts of other lawyers on the Board."
I would concur that from a legal standpoint the analogy to how contempt of court is handled is helpful. To a large extent Brady and the Patriots hold the key to their own "release" just as the journalist does who refuses to disclose his/her sources under order of contempt of court. Some of this is of course in the past tense but I can see in the appeal/arbitration process Brady and the Patriots being given an opportunity to go back and make further disclosures if they want off the hook.
Of course if they opt again not to do so, the appeal itself will also likely deflate for the appellants.
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Sure, but of course they have to operate within the scope of established U.S. laws. Asking people to consent to arbitration rather than immediately filing court actions over grievances is within the scope of the law and that's what they ask their players to do. Fine by me.
If Tom Brady didn't want speculation, he could have easily cooperated and and allowed the league to look through the relevant correspondence on his phone with his attorney and advisors present, which is what was offered to him.
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