Trevor Drafted!

[EvanstonCat]

The coaches primary job was to give NU the best chance to win and KC added a dimension that TS could not. Playing KC gave us a better chance to win so he played.

So you argue. I argue that having an NFL draftable QB throwing to an NFL practice squad caliber WR would give us a higher chance to win and score points then to have said NFL draftable QB sitting on the bench while asking the NFL practice squad caliber WR to play QB instead. It's like the Great Leap Forward when Chairman Mao sent all the intellectuals and city folk to the fields, and everyone starved.

 

[NUCat320]

Pretty easy to take a flyer with a 7th round pick when you have 3 of them. It was a solid way to use one of them. If they had only had one, as most teams did, I would guess they might have tried for him as an UFA. But having a surplus of picks, it was easier to use it to get the UFA they wanted rather than take a chance

Right. He comes in with a chance at a no. 3 spot. "draftable", you know, lkke Maurice Clarett. Or JaMarcus Russell.

In Trevor, they see a 6-3 kid who is smart and has a good arm, who they can mold into a QB. He is probably similar sized to Kubiak and Elway.

In Trevor, I watched a guy who, in a low risk passing offense, completed fewer than 60 percent of his passes, had nearly as many interceptions as touchdowns, got an absurdly high number of balls batted down, often cost the team YAC because he rarely hit guys in stride, and presided over the end of a semi-meaningless bowl streak.

There's no way NU is a ten win team without the option, and the staff's job is to win, not to play the most pro-style offense. Taking the ball out of Kain's hands would have been contrary to that goal.

Kubiak and Elway are the experts, I guess. But I don't think Trevor is an NFL qb, no matter how much Kubiak believes in his abilities. Kubiak coached David Carr, right?

 

[EvanstonCat]

Maybe you're right. With Siemian playing more, maybe we're an 11 or 12 win team in 2012.

The staff's job is to win. We didn't win in 2013. I guess they did not do that good of a job. And interesting that you tag our staff as experts, but not Kubiak who has 3 Superbowl rings as a Coach and is a head coach at the highest level of the game. Somehow you can question Kubiak's judgment despite his record, but we cannot question our staff's despite their record? Interesting...

 

[NUCat320]

Maybe you're right. With Siemian playing more, maybe we're an 11 or 12 win team in 2012.

The staff's job is to win. We didn't win in 2013. I guess they did not do that good of a job. And interesting that you tag our staff as experts, but not Kubiak who has 3 Superbowl rings as a Coach and is a head coach at the highest level of the game. Somehow you can question Kubiak's judgment despite his record, but we cannot question our staff's despite their record? Interesting...

(My first post was a mess of misappropriated antecedents. I'll edit shortly.)

My central point is this: Siemian was an okay to below average college quarterback, no matter what Kubiak's dreams are when he pops in tape of the ND game.

The coaches won ten games, best in 15+ years, using a platoon system and getting the ball in the hands of the best athlete as much as possible. I am confident, just watching the train wreck that was the 2014 season, that NU would have not won ten games with Trevor throwing in the general direction of Kain or handing to Venric - the bulk of the offensive success was the threat of the option and the explosiveness of 2 and 5. And the coaches were right to attack unconventionally, because getting a guy to The League is far lower than getting a guy to a New Year's game.

Kubiak's dreams and net investment - the same that Jeff Fisher put into Michael Sam last year - do not change what we saw from Siemian.

 

[clarificationcat]

(My first post was a mess of misappropriated antecedents. I'll edit shortly.)

My central point is this: Siemian was an okay to below average college quarterback, no matter what Kubiak's dreams are when he pops on take of the ND game.

The coaches won ten games, best in 15+ years, using a platoon system and getting the ball in the hands of the best athlete as much as possible. I am confident, just watching the train wreck that was the 2014 season, that NU would have not won ten games with Trevor throwing in the general direction of Kain or handing to Venric - the bulk of the offensive success was the threat is the option and the explosiveness of 2 and 5. And the coaches were right to attack unconventionally, because getting a guy to The League is far lower than getting a guy to a New Year's game.

Kubiak's dreams and net investment - the same that Jeff Fisher put into Michael Sam last year - do not change what we saw from Siemian.

Agreed. I saw every game and thought that Trevor was very good in a few games, o.k. in several and bad in a few. He, of course, would have had better stats with a better offensive line and better receivers but we didn't have those so I think the coaching staff did a great job of maximizing the talents of both quarterbacks in 2012. I have mentioned several times that I think the coaching staff wanted Trevor to be the starting quarterback in 2012 but he really struggled against Penn State and Nebraska (check out his stats from those games if you don't remember) and they gave the majority of snaps to Kain after that. I thought it worked out really well.

And because a team uses a 7th round draft pick (the 250th out of 256) on a quarterback does not mean that our coaching staff didn't evaluate him or develop him properly. Good luck to Trevor. I hope he gets an opportunity and has a long NFL career.

 

[hdhntr1]

So you argue. I argue that having an NFL draftable QB throwing to an NFL practice squad caliber WR would give us a higher chance to win and score points then to have said NFL draftable QB sitting on the bench while asking the NFL practice squad caliber WR to play QB instead. It's like the Great Leap Forward when Chairman Mao sent all the intellectuals and city folk to the fields, and everyone starved.

College FB is not pro football. Option is almost non existent in the pros but is seen a lot in CFB because it offers the potential to add another weapon on the field for teams without overwhelming talent. It, like the spread, are equalizers. We needed that extra weapon as it made our offense more potent overall. KC was the QB for much of the time because he gave us a better opportunity to win. That does not mean that KC ad potential as a QB in the pros.

If TS had been able to complete 70% of his passes (yes, I know many of his passes were dropped and the OL did not provide him with great protection but that was part of what made KC the better option much of the time) he might have been a choice for much of the time but he wasn't. He also threw a lot of questionable balls that he got away with when he was 1b but he did not get away with them last year.

 

[SmellyCat]

Is it possible that, I dunno, you need different skillsets to succeed in the NFL as opposed to college?

 

[hdhntr1]

Is it possible that, I dunno, you need different skillsets to succeed in the NFL as opposed to college?

Wasn't Brady a backup in college?

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Wasn't Brady a backup in college?

That's one of the most-repeated stories about Tom Brady... but it's also incorrect. He started numerous games for Michigan in the 1998 and 1999 seasons. He and Henson had a platoon system for the first six or seven games in 1999, but he was by no means a full-time backup.

Off the top of my head, the only guy I can think of who parlayed a career as a backup collegiate QB to a decent NFL career is Matt Cassel, who got caught behind Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart at USC. Pretty impressive to go from a guy whose lone collegiate start came as a TE to a Pro Bowl QB.

 

[hdhntr1]

That's one of the most-repeated stories about Tom Brady... but it's also incorrect. He started numerous games for Michigan in the 1998 and 1999 seasons. He and Henson had a platoon system for the first six or seven games in 1999, but he was by no means a full-time backup.

Off the top of my head, the only guy I can think of who parlayed a career as a backup collegiate QB to a decent NFL career is Matt Cassel, who got caught behind Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart at USC. Pretty impressive to go from a guy whose lone collegiate start came as a TE to a Pro Bowl QB.

I guess it is a mater of semantics. I was not meaning that he was a full time backup but that he was not a full time designated starter. According to others, that should never have happened. After all he is a multiple time all pro.

 

[realcatfan]

OMG this thread is annoying. We don't have a player drafted and people complain about coaches not developing NFL draftees. We do get a guy drafted and people complain about not winning enough games with NFL talent. The last two seasons are behind us and I hope the INJURY SITUATION that caused the last two seasons is behind us as well. Trevor is going to the NFL, so let's wish him the best.

 

[Katatonic]

Pretty sure it was...if not more so. 2011 and 2012 were two of the best offensive seasons we've had. The defense was good in 2012, which meant 10 wins. Also, in 2010, the QB that led us to the most points in a game that year was Colter against Texas Tech.

Statistically, maybe 2005 was better on the offensive side than 2012, but it's a close race. Either way, I know which season I'd like to have over and over again.

The O in 2012 would have been average at best w/o Mark.

It was Mark who either (1) set up a short drive w/ great field position on a return, (2) busted a long run or (3) took one to the house on a punt return.

In Trevor, I watched a guy who, in a low risk passing offense, completed fewer than 60 percent of his passes, had nearly as many interceptions as touchdowns, got an absurdly high number of balls batted down, often cost the team YAC because he rarely hit guys in stride, and presided over the end of a semi-meaningless bowl streak.

Sounds like many PSU fans on Hackenberg last season.

Think the state of the O-line and talent around them had anything to do w/ that? (not surprisingly, Hack and TS had similar stats last season and TS also played on one healthy leg for much of the season).

Kubiak and Elway are the experts, I guess. But I don't think Trevor is an NFL qb, no matter how much Kubiak believes in his abilities. Kubiak coached David Carr, right?

Well, both Kubiak and Elway seem to think so - and Kubiak after seeing Siemian throw on the 1st day of rookie camp.

After seeing Siemian go through motions during Day 1 of rookie camp practice Friday, Kubiak felt reassured of what he saw before he drafted him.

"He's impressive," Kubiak said Friday. "We've got to get him totally healthy. Training camp will be that date."

(My first post was a mess of misappropriated antecedents. I'll edit shortly.)

My central point is this: Siemian was an okay to below average college quarterback, no matter what Kubiak's dreams are when he pops in tape of the ND game.

Well, Hackenberg was an OK to below avg. college QB last season and yet is still predicted to be a top draft pick (thank goodness NFL scouts /personnel take into account things like injuries, talent surrounding the QB, etc.).

The coaches won ten games, best in 15+ years, using a platoon system and getting the ball in the hands of the best athlete as much as possible. I am confident, just watching the train wreck that was the 2014 season, that NU would have not won ten games with Trevor throwing in the general direction of Kain or handing to Venric - the bulk of the offensive success was the threat of the option and the explosiveness of 2 and 5. And the coaches were right to attack unconventionally, because getting a guy to The League is far lower than getting a guy to a New Year's game.

So why didn't Colter take every snap at QB and during crunch time?

Agreed. I saw every game and thought that Trevor was very good in a few games, o.k. in several and bad in a few. He, of course, would have had better stats with a better offensive line and better receivers but we didn't have those so I think the coaching staff did a great job of maximizing the talents of both quarterbacks in 2012. I have mentioned several times that I think the coaching staff wanted Trevor to be the starting quarterback in 2012 but he really struggled against Penn State and Nebraska (check out his stats from those games if you don't remember) and they gave the majority of snaps to Kain after that. I thought it worked out really well.

PSU had one of the best pass rushes and a pretty good secondary, so it was tough slogging any way out.

But once Mark left the game (didn't play the 4th Q), the O went from doing just enough to doing nothing as PSU's pass rush ignored the run.

The O still scored 21 pts (Mark scored another 6 on a punt return) which was better than most PSU opponents that season.

As for NEB - their coaching staff developed the game plan to stop the NU O - press and be real physical w/ the NU receivers (astounding that some B1G coaches didn't follow that game plan).

Also, last season TS managed to pass for 155 yds in the 1st half, but once Prater and Shuler got knocked out, the NEB stacked the box and locked down on the receivers (and despite the limited stat line in the 2nd half, thought TS actually played well - even if his completions were got 3-4 yds; the NEB DBs were right on the NU receivers and if TS had thrown a pass off-mark by a few inches, would have been an easy INT).

If TS had been able to complete 70% of his passes (yes, I know many of his passes were dropped and the OL did not provide him with great protection but that was part of what made KC the better option much of the time) he might have been a choice for much of the time but he wasn't. He also threw a lot of questionable balls that he got away with when he was 1b but he did not get away with them last year.

Don't think KC necessarily gave the 'Cats a better chance to win (which is why the staff wanted to play TS more); in 2012, TS led the O on longer drives.

But I had no issue w/ playing KC under center since TS's talents as a QB requires an O-line that is at least avg. in pass protection and receivers who can get separation (much less catch the ball).

But at the same time, the coaching staff did not make the best use of Siemian's talents when healthy as the underused his mobility and ability to throw on the run - which mitigated the deficiencies on the O-line and at WR somewhat as we were able to see (unfortunately only for a short time) in the 4th Q of the UM game and the ND game.

 

[Gladeskat]

I think this development damns the coaches more than it highlights any brilliance upon their part. The age old question returns - what the hell were we doing playing him behind Colter in the first place?

In a perverse and twisted way, I feel some level of vindication on Trevor, though like others I gave up on him after some very mediocre outings - at least until his injuries became a matter of public record. I was one of more than several who had projected brilliance for Trevor, and could never understand why we had an NFL WR (at least on a practice squad) playing ahead of him. They say it was because of our offense. If so, then McCall and the staff are idiots. You don't stick with our offense irrespective to personnel. You modify the offense to fit the personnel. You also don't give snaps away from an NFL draftable QB to someone who obviously can't throw the ball well enough to warrant being looked at as a QB in the league. Imagine what this offense might have been with Siemian playing full time as a QB and an NFL caliber WR in Colter catching the ball. It would be one thing if our O was a prolific as it was under Persa, Basanez, or Kustok with Colter under center. Then it would be hard to argue against the coaches. It wasn't. The defense was the strongest side of the ball during the Colter years.

This together with the decision to play Andrew Brewer over Mike Kafka, and both over CJ Bacher really makes me question the ability of the staff on personnel, particularly at the QB position.

LOL!

 

[Katatonic]

Comparing TS to Orton and Cousins is a bit of a reach with existing info, IMO. Both of those guys proved themselves over the course of their careers. The jury's out on TS compared to those guys. We'll see how well he does in camp. I wish him a quick recovery from his knee injury and best luck in camp.

True - I was not comparing TS to those QBs based on what has been accomplished at the pro level as TS has yet to make the final roster, much less see any action.

But was basically comparing them on things like footwork, release, arm strength, etc. during their college careers.

The back shoulder pass is just a matter of where you throw to and how accurate you are throwing it. It's really no different than accuracy on other passes.

Right - but it is a trickier pass to throw on a regular basis as the QB and WR have to be on the same page once the play starts and they become aware that the DB is in a position where such a throw can be made.

Among the previous gen of great NFL QBs (Marino, Elway, Montana, Favre, etc.) the back shoulder throw was used sparingly at opportune moments.

Nowadays, QBs like Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Brady, etc. - use it on a more regular basis, but it's still the top QBs who do so - as it requires accuracy, timing and co-ordination (and for the down-field, back shoulder pass - some arm strength) as otherwise, it runs the risk of an easy INT.

Maybe people were being unfair judging him when he was injured or the WR's and OL played poorly, but the OL wasn't horrible every game, and he had a hand in several poor plays and losses over his career. The OL is made more of a scapegoat by some people for our losses in some games than they should be.

Of course TS had had a hand in some bad plays (tho some were attributed to him even tho it was the receiver running the wrong route), but what QB/player hasn't?

One would be hard pressed to find more than a game here and there where the O-line had the clear upper hand, much less play even.

There's a reason why JJ ypc avg. was a good bit lower than just about every back in the B1G (and in the case of Coleman, opposing Ds focused on the run since IU didn't have a QB and they still couldn't stop the Hoosier run game).

And while yes, Southern Illinois had a couple of talented players on their D-line, it was still painful to watch the O-line be pushed backwards.

And remember, the O-line couldn't sustain a push on 3rd/4th and short and the ball given to the RB - so on too many of those plays, we saw the end result of the ball being turned over to the other side.

Finally, the coaching staff wizened up and on 3rd/4th and short resorted to the QB sneak as they could get the initial push; but then they went one to many time to well (in the play TS got injured, would not have run the QB sneak as PU was ready for it and had stacked the center).

With the deficiencies on the O-line and receiving corps - had no issue w/ playing KC at QB in the prior seasons, but at the same time never saw the staff utilize all of Siemian's talents (when healthy) by moving the pocket and allowing him to evade the pas rush and buy time for the receivers w/ his legs as he is a pretty good passer on the run (basically just saw it for the 4th Q of the UM game and the ND game).

 

[Gladeskat]

True - I was not comparing TS to those QBs based on what has been accomplished at the pro level as TS has yet to make the final roster.

Right - but it is a trickier pass to throw on a regular basis as the QB and WR have to be on the same page once the play starts and they become aware that the DB is in a position where such a throw can be made.

Among the previous gen of great NFL QBs (Marino, Elway, Montana, Favre, etc.) the back shoulder throw was used sparingly at opportune moments.

Nowadays, QBs like Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Brady, etc. - use it on a more regular basis, but it's still the top QBs who do so - as it requires accuracy, timing and co-ordination (and for the down-field, back shoulder pass - some arm strength) as otherwise, it runs the risk of an easy INT.

.

That's because the passing game has evolved in the NFL. The back shoulder pass is a product of a more reactive passing game today, i.e., where a QB throws depends upon where the defender is relative to the WR. It's emerged as a new play...not analogous but it's kinda like the tear-drop or floater shot in basketball. You didn't see that shot often 40 years ago. Now most guards shot it.

 

[CatQ]

That's because the passing game has evolved in the NFL. The back shoulder pass is a product of a more reactive passing game today, i.e., where a QB throws depends upon where the defender is relative to the WR. It's emerged as a new play...not analogous but it's kinda like the tear-drop or floater shot in basketball. You didn't see that shot often 40 years ago. Now most guards shot it.

The back shoulder throw has made its way down and is now a common pass required of QBs in the high school ranks. Just FYI.

 

[CatQ]

OMG this thread is annoying. We don't have a player drafted and people complain about coaches not developing NFL draftees. We do get a guy drafted and people complain about not winning enough games with NFL talent. The last two seasons are behind us and I hope the INJURY SITUATION that caused the last two seasons is behind us as well. Trevor is going to the NFL, so let's wish him the best.

Was just thinking the same. People will complain no matter what….

 

[Katatonic]

That's because the passing game has evolved in the NFL. The back shoulder pass is a product of a more reactive passing game today, i.e., where a QB throws depends upon where the defender is relative to the WR. It's emerged as a new play...not analogous but it's kinda like the tear-drop or floater shot in basketball. You didn't see that shot often 40 years ago. Now most guards shot it.

Yes - the passing game in the NFL (as well as CFB and HS) has evolved, but at the same time, it's no coincidence that the QBs who make the most use of the back shoulder pass are the top QBs in the game today.

And not all back-shoulder passes rate the same level of difficulty.