Brumbaugh recruiting and decision
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Kid has one very impressive offer list:
Georgetown
Maryland
Wisconsin
Butler
Creighton
Georgia Tech
Kansas
Marquette
Miami
Minnesota
Mississippi State
Oregon
Penn State
Providence
Texas
Vanderbilt
Virginia Tech
West Virginia
Xavier
DePaul
Seton Hall
California
And a few other non power programs.
FWIW, 247 has crystal ball at 100% for NU. Rivals also gives us a great chance at 75%/56%. Fingers crossed
Georgetown
Maryland
Wisconsin
Butler
Creighton
Georgia Tech
Kansas
Marquette
Miami
Minnesota
Mississippi State
Oregon
Penn State
Providence
Texas
Vanderbilt
Virginia Tech
West Virginia
Xavier
DePaul
Seton Hall
California
And a few other non power programs.
FWIW, 247 has crystal ball at 100% for NU. Rivals also gives us a great chance at 75%/56%. Fingers crossed
Other than the basketball program's struggles, Northwestern towers over Kansas, Oregon and Maryland. If Brumbaugh chooses NU, it is primarily because of the university's lofty reputation, location and facilities. And presumably his parents wanting a backup plan for their son (other than basketball).
These are significant advantages.
I mean I guess it is possible that the kid really connects with Coach Collins, but he's no force of nature like Pat Fitzgerald.
I also don't see how Brumbaugh is so gifted that he'd be a game changer for the program. Pete Nance, Casey Simmons, Miller Kopp, Aaron Falzon and Robbie Beran were similarly ranked. In other words he really would not be the "first one to make the leap."
But wouldn't he look good running a pick-and-roll with Nicholson?
I love how you have absolutely (and I mean absolutely) no inside information about Brumbaugh's recruitment but you are able to confidently state why he chose Northwestern. As far as I'm aware, Northwestern has towered over those programs since Naismith invented basketball and coached at Kansas. And yet, oddly, we rarely have ever beaten those programs for recruits, particularly Kansas. What the hell have we been doing for the past 75 years?
And Fitzgerald has not been a force of nature in recruiting. He's rarely beaten any of the top programs for recruits. He will be the first to acknowledge his lack of success against Ohio State, Alabama, Clemson, etc. He's done a great job of identifying players that fit the program and building a winning culture. Football is much, much more of a developmental sport. There are almost no 3-star first round NBA picks (like Newsome and Slater). Those kids have been identified by the time they are 16 in basketball. There are no guys like Aaron Rodger or Trey Lance in the NBA.
I am not going to get into a debate with you about Collins. If we are not a good B1G team this year, I think the University should start exploring hiring a new coach. But Collins and his assistant coaches (who do most of the recruiting in football and basketball) deserve a lot of credit if they are able to get a commitment from Brumbaugh. I think it's comical how much it pains you to give him any credit ("the players deserve the credit for making the tournament" and "we were unprepared in the first half against Gonzaga" (that's my favorite!)) but these types of posts just make your other posts far less credible.
I don't need to have "inside information" on Brumbaugh's recruitment to know that Northwestern in 2021 basically sells itself. I'm a parent who now has two kids in college. If my son wanted to go play basketball at Texas Tech or Maryland or Oregon when he had an offer from Northwestern and I didnt feel like he would be over his head academically, I would do everything in my power to make sure he attended Northwestern. Because I want the best for my kids, like nearly all parents. If he turned into an elite college player, he can always transfer to Kansas.
Regarding your rather pedestrian question about "what have we been doing for the last 75 years?" there are several factors... Most basketball players (or any other athlete) do not have the academics to attend NU. That has always been the case and accounts for most of our past difficulties in athletics. Our facilities until recently have been worst in the Big Ten - a huge impediment to recruiting. Now that situation is something of a positive. In addition, Northwestern's academic profile nationally has risen SIGNIFICANTLY from 20 years ago. Lastly, NU's national athletic profile has risen even more significantly, thanks mainly to Fitzgerald and the football team. These are RECENT developments and it gives any basketball coach a strong hand to recruit with, provided the recruit isn't certain he is an eventual NBA player.
The only real downside at this point is the general apathy of most of the student body towards NU sports.
The kids who get recruited by Oklahoma, Ohio State, Clemson and Alabama for football are primarily thinking that their future is in the NFL. Obviously, a high percentage of those kids don't have the academics to attend NU. Of those who do, my impression is that Pat Fitzgerald's character puts him at a distinct disadvantage when recruiting against guys who only want to win at any cost.
My concerns with Chris Collins as the NU basketball coach are about everything other than recruiting.
Anybody would look good running a pick and roll with Nicholson, because that would mean Nicholson is actually on the court!
Got it. A new stadium and going from 14 to 10th in the college rankings and the few academically eligible great players just line up. Great news. I should point out that Vanderbilt and Georgetown (two of the schools on his list) are outstanding schools with great basketball tradition so he (and your kids) might choose them instead. Unlike in football, we are competing against every university in the country for basketball players (including the Ivies). So, in conclusion, the staff deserves a lot of credit if they land a player with that offer list. Seems simple enough.
Brumbaugh's prep school sends a lot of basketball players to Ivy League schools and other elite universities, so isn't surprising that he'd be interested in what NU offers.
He is at a position that we have had the most difficulty with. And that is not just under CCC but under BC as well. PG/LG is the most important position on the floor as the right person in that role,makes everyone else better.
Look again at the initial teams of CCC. Where do you think they would have been without BMac. Sobo was ok but could not have gotten the job done. Basically, BC only really got two real PGs for his time here. So having a true BIG level guy there would be huge
Welcome aboard to him, and I wasn't surprised. NMH is a feeder program for the Ivies, but he's a cut above and this gives him the best of both worlds.
Either you don't understand what you are talking about or you are deliberately distorting reality. I'll assume the latter, but won't rule out the alternative.
Vandy is mainly a school for talented kids who didnt get into NU and smart kids from the south. Georgetown is a fine Catholic university, yes. Not as highly regarded as Notre Dame and therefore not in Northwestern's class. It wasn't always that way. It is now.
The facility that turned the tide is not "the new stadium." Its the new facility out on the lakefront, the Ryan Fieldhouse and Walter Athletics Center - the training facility, completed in late 2018. It was a gamechanger for NU sports, especially recruiting.
Ryan Field (over on Central Street) is not a great football stadium, but it is better than what NU had when it was called Dyche Stadium. Welsh-Ryan Arena has been remodeled twice now since the embarrassing days when the building and gym were called McGaw Hall. The recent 2018 re-model was a nice step forward for the basketball team.
Your comment "Unlike in football, we are competing against every university in the country for basketball players (including the Ivies)."
That is really just a ridiculously false statement. We don't compete with Illinois State, Drake or Grambling for players. We compete with other Power 5 schools some other established programs and occasionally the Ivies. We are so clearly a better choice over half of those schools that we aren't ever going to lose a player to them. So we're competing with about 50 schools when you throw Villanova and some others into the mix.
Didn't think that the basketball team practiced or trained at the new lake front facility.
Last post in yet another silly discussion with you (which began by you concluding that Collins and his staff had very little to do with securing the commitment of one of the most highly recruited kids ever to commit to Northwestern!). In the vast, vast majority of cases, talented basketball and football players do not select schools based on slight or even significant differences in college rankings or (believe it or not) your perception of which school is better. They make their choice based on their connection with the coaching staff, the facilities, the state of the program, the history of the program, whether they like the campus, whether they think the coaching staff can develop them, etc. If my kid wanted to go to Vanderbilt or Georgetown (or lots of other good schools ranked below Northwestern for that matter) for academics, I would not talk them out of it (and I went to NU). Georgetown and Vanderbilt are really good schools in cool cities with strong basketball traditions. They can sell academics. Their facilities are comparable to our facilities. Our coaching deserves credit for beating them and a bunch of great basketball programs (which is absolutely what most kids prioritize). And why is the Walters Athletic Facility a game changer for basketball? They don't train there. It freed up space for the new basketball facilities but I don't think it means much to a basketball recruit. And finally, I think you understood the point of my ridiculously false statement (which is a ridiculously dramatic statement). In basketball, the universe of Division I schools you are competing against is much larger than football and there are a lot more highly ranked private schools (like Vanderbilt and Georgetown) with basketball programs.
Now, can you go back to talking about how college basketball has evolved into a slow, lumbering big man's game and how every program is trying to find more 7 foot players who play with their back to the basket (except for all those stupid programs that competed in the Final 4)?
That was my assumption too. How about other services such as academic support, etc.? If basketball isn't headquartered at all on the lake front, might that also apply to baseball and softball?
Lat I checked BB does not practice or play at the lakefront. CCC and staff landed him to play BB and not FB
Basketball only uses lakefront intermittently since Trienens was completed last summer. Most academic support (tutoring) is virtual these days. I know baseball and softball have indoor practice facilities at Trienens, too, but I don't know where their weight room/locker room/support staff reside.
Have you seen the new basketball facility located in the old football facility? Hmmm
Northwestern's first goal in basketball should be to have a winning record in the Big Ten. Last year the Big Ten was dominated by big guys.
"This league has still remained to have the dominant big man, which can be very, very effective as we're seeing with a lot of these teams." - Chris Collins
"It's just not a good year to be small," - Mark Turgeon
Your ability (and willingness) to falsely ascribe opinions to me is disappointing.
The statistics bear out the fact that our best 5 last year involved Nance and Ryan Young on the court together. Thats just a fact, not something that gets trumped by "your opinion." If you want to call Pete Nance slow and lumbering, that's your problem. Matt Nicholson is not slow or lumbering either, just big and mobile. On the other hand, Ryan Young is slow. And effective.
The coach needs to play to the strength of his team. Good coaches do that.
Regarding the other argument you are making - that NU's athletic facilities are not dramatically better than they were 20 years ago, or even 5 years ago, well good luck with that.
Are you trying to infer by this that Rowan's commitment was not important? Tell me how many of those teams that were successful did not have a quality PG? While having a solid front line is important, if you don't have the floor general, you ain't going anywhere.
And no one said that facilities have not improved but in general facilities are not what brings a guy here. Poor facilities are much more of a reason to not come. As much as our facilities for BB have improved, they are probably still only about middle of the pac in BIG. They are no longer a reason not to come here
Recruiting is mostly about relationships, so yes, CCC and staff deserve kudos for this recruiting coup.
He's just creating straw man arguments to try to distract from my actual point. Instead of just keeping quiet or even congratulating the coaching staff, he had to post comments like "If Brumbaugh chooses NU, it is primarily because of the university's lofty reputation, location and facilities" and "I don't need to have "inside information" on Brumbaugh's recruitment to know that Northwestern in 2021 basically sells itself." Just silliness. I need to learn not to respond.
No, not saying that at all. Its a different issue, where somebody felt the need to mis-state my opinion for me.
I agree with you 100% that we need a point guard. Hoping that guy is Roper or Berry or Buie for now, because thats who we have on campus for this upcoming season. Of course Casey Simmons was rated higher than Brumbaugh, so I am excited to see him on the court this fall as well. I think NU has a lot of talent on the roster. I'm expecting a good season, unlike the doom and gloomers who dominate this board. Our frontcourt is good, we just need some guard play (and hopefully better coaching).
My initial point was that NU sells itself to recruits. The academic prestige, the Big Ten, the proximity to Chicago and the significantly improved athletic facilities give Collins a very strong hand.
A few people got upset at me for pointing that out.
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Just let it go! Northwestern doesn't sell itself to top basketball recruits. It's an idiotic statement that you just keep making because you couldn't bear to give the coaching staff any credit. NU sells itself to really smart, high-achieving non-athletes who can't get into Harvard, Yale or Princeton. I may have missed it, but in his interview I don't recall Brumbaugh mentioning our "lofty" ranking. He mentioned the coaching staff and wanting to play in the NBA. He believes that this coaching staff can develop him into an NBA player and that NU can be a good program. NU is a great school with a nice campus and competitive facilities. But that's not why he chose to commit. Those things are helpful in trying to sell the program but they are buying the program.
I don't mean to get in the middle of this thing. But this is a statement I've generally heard in the past, and it's a pet peeve. It's historically obvious that NU, the B10 and the city don't sell themselves.
How many coaches have come in here and repeated this idea? I go back to Bill Foster and EVERY one of them say it in the first press conference.
Let's not forget how they hope to take advantage of the strong Chicago recruiting base.
If I'm an opposing B10 coach recruiting against NU, I'm going to talk about campus life, how Chicago is a pro town and how my school averages XX,000 fans per game with a strong alumni base all over the Midwest. Then I'm going to ask the kid what he wants his major to be, and I'll probably have a top-10-20 school in the country for that major. For a kid that probably wants a pro basketball career here or overseas, a strong major/school will probably be good enough compared to the strongest school.
I'm sorry, but we need to be a little more realistic about these "advantages." I have no doubt they are used in every living room intro, and they are strong points. But history has shown they aren't differentiators. This staff has at least some clue of those differentiators and the profile of the right kid.
Many thanks to Brumbaugh and every top-100 talent who wants to blaze the path, make his mark and give us some hope. It takes a different type of Cat (pun intended) to make that leap, and I always appreciate it.
Just to point out that our problems don't all go back to the lack of a "true" point guard, floor general, bla, bla, bla. I have read on this board so many opinions that basically make you believe that if it were not for our misses at the PG positions, we'd be Kansas. Lathon, bla, bla, bla. It's a guard game these days, bla, bla, bla.
It's not like it doesn't give a team a big advantage. Of course it does. But where does this idea that you can't have success without one comes from? Sure, be selective and point out the championship game where Baylor had phenomenal guards and Gonzaga had the most talented PG in the country.
Here's a breakdown of the B1G teams last year that made and did not make the tournament. You don't need to make it to the final four to have a successful season, I'd call making the tournament (to different degrees) a successful season. Maybe it's over simplifying:
Teams with clear, defined, putting up good stats, leader on court, PG - made tourney:
- Illinois - Ayo
- Iowa - Bohannon
- Michigan - Smith
- Wisconsin - Trice
- Maryland - PG by committee
- Michigan State - Best passer on the team was a forward
- Purdue - PG by committee
- Ohio State - Walker, debatable in which category team falls in
- Rutgers - Mulcahy, not great. Young, a scorer, not really a general
- Minnesota - Carr
- Nebraska - Banton (though very weird use of the clear only NBA prospect in roster)
- Penn State - all over the place
- Indiana - all over the place
- NW - ???
Some observations from the numbers (and I understand my classification of true PG is debatable):
- Overall - 6 teams had a leader at PG - 8 didn't - We are not alone
- More teams that made the tournament did not have PG than the ones who had
- You can have one of the best in the country (Carr) and go down more than a prostitute in rush hour
Sadly, no.
You mean the same Northwestern that used to be known as a coach's graveyard? And may still be?
Recruiting is most definitely not mostly about relationships. Especially in the recruitment of top prospects. It’s far more often than not about perceived stature and opportunity. If you don’t have the requisite stature and afford the perceived opportunity to win big now and then go quickly to the League, you have very little chance of landing most difference makers.
Nobody had better relationships with Justin Fields and Will Shipley than Fitz did. But even he knew that once the big boys moved in he had no chance.
GOUNUII
Sorry but, no it doesn't. Not to BB players (not to FB either). We don't have top BB players climbing all over each other trying to get in. Recruiting here in BB is probably harder than anyplace else in P5.
In my view, the fallacy with arguments that say Collins is a poor in-game coach and a poor developer of players is that they don’t recognize the obvious correlation of team success with the quality of our players. Tom Izzo said it best - it’s a lot easier to coach when you have great players. The fact is we just don’t get the best players and it’s not even that close. To even think we are close to getting some of them is almost unbelievable given our history. Does anyone think Collins has impeded the progress of surefire NBA prospects on our roster?
And to think we can at this point have sustained levels of success is still just downright unrealistic. Games everywhere are often very close, even for teams against supposedly inferior conferences. It’s easy to go on losing streaks and/or fluctuate a few spots in the standings based on a few close wins/losses. Unfortunately, Collins has had a bit more of the downside of this rather than the upside. But it’s not because he’s the only problem (he deserves a little of that blame, for sure). I think it’s amazing his recruiting success continues despite this. We are consistently more competitive than prior NU coach’s teams, and we continue to show recruiting prowess despite a relative lack of win/loss success. Things are not yet as good as we’d all like, but I fail to see how we are not all optimistic.
And to think we can at this point have sustained levels of success is still just downright unrealistic. Games everywhere are often very close, even for teams against supposedly inferior conferences. It’s easy to go on losing streaks and/or fluctuate a few spots in the standings based on a few close wins/losses. Unfortunately, Collins has had a bit more of the downside of this rather than the upside. But it’s not because he’s the only problem (he deserves a little of that blame, for sure). I think it’s amazing his recruiting success continues despite this. We are consistently more competitive than prior NU coach’s teams, and we continue to show recruiting prowess despite a relative lack of win/loss success. Things are not yet as good as we’d all like, but I fail to see how we are not all optimistic.
To me the biggest indictment of Collins is his inability to win close games. The fact the game is close says de facto you have the talent to compete with that team on that day. Good coaches find ways to win close games. That’s the bottom line.
The other issue with Collins is that he has recruited a lot of players who were rated well, and out recruited other good programs for many of them. But they don’t seem to get any better. Some regress. Kopp is a prime example — highest rated recruit we’ve had, but he regressed rather than improved.
So that history, plus several seasons of long losing streaks, makes it hard for me, at least, to work up any optimism about this program. I would be pleasantly surprised if this team finished .500 and made a post-season tournament. If they don’t the new AD is going to have to seriously consider making a change. And if he does, I suspect a lot of players, including our current commitment, bail.
Close games are won by great players.
I will not conclude anything about Collins based on Miller Kopp.
My optimism remains.
I suspect it has something to do with other people having different assessments of what recruiting actually is, what recruiting NU has actually done, what development of players and teams actually is, and what development of players and teams NU has actually done. But that's just a guess.
Clarificationcat:
I apologize for calling you a clown I edited the comment. I felt bad about it, since I understand that you are an NU alum. We just place different amounts of recruiting value on "all things Northwestern" versus "what I think of the coach."
Not worth arguing about.
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