CCC has got to devote SERIOUS time to breaking the press

[MC_Cat]

Seriously, if I were an opposing coach I'd dial up the pressure against us EVERY single night. We've not shown any ability EVER to handle a good press. The only time in recent memory I've seen us make significant adjustments was in Carmody's closest run to the tourney when we finally, after blowing several games, started going for the "snow bird" pass over the press for easy buckets in Moore's senior year.

In Collins' tenure, we have repeatedly failed against pressure. Something has to change; you have one of the best point guards in the Big Ten yet we still find ways to turn the ball over SO many times at the first sign of pressure. Change the scheme, Chris! Don't you realize this yet? It almost cost us the Wisconsin game where we frittered away most of a solid lead until a questionable charge call sealed the deal. Tonight? That was a game we should have won but all the stupid turnovers against the press cost us bigtime. If you don't realize this is a perennial problem that needs to be addressed now then we will continue to lose games we really should win, and kiss postseason dreams goodbye.

P.S. I really do hate Ohio State.

 

[IGNORE2]

Seriously, if I were an opposing coach I'd dial up the pressure against us EVERY single night. We've not shown any ability EVER to handle a good press. The only time in recent memory I've seen us make significant adjustments was in Carmody's closest run to the tourney when we finally, after blowing several games, started going for the "snow bird" pass over the press for easy buckets in Moore's senior year.

In Collins' tenure, we have repeatedly failed against pressure. Something has to change; you have one of the best point guards in the Big Ten yet we still find ways to turn the ball over SO many times at the first sign of pressure. Change the scheme, Chris! Don't you realize this yet? It almost cost us the Wisconsin game where we frittered away most of a solid lead until a questionable charge call sealed the deal. Tonight? That was a game we should have won but all the stupid turnovers against the press cost us bigtime. If you don't realize this is a perennial problem that needs to be addressed now then we will continue to lose games we really should win, and kiss postseason dreams goodbye.

P.S. I really do hate Ohio State.

With our depth, we really should be running the press too. We have some long armed dudes too.

 

[YesterdaysCat]

Seriously, if I were an opposing coach I'd dial up the pressure against us EVERY single night. We've not shown any ability EVER to handle a good press. The only time in recent memory I've seen us make significant adjustments was in Carmody's closest run to the tourney when we finally, after blowing several games, started going for the "snow bird" pass over the press for easy buckets in Moore's senior year.

In Collins' tenure, we have repeatedly failed against pressure. Something has to change; you have one of the best point guards in the Big Ten yet we still find ways to turn the ball over SO many times at the first sign of pressure. Change the scheme, Chris! Don't you realize this yet? It almost cost us the Wisconsin game where we frittered away most of a solid lead until a questionable charge call sealed the deal. Tonight? That was a game we should have won but all the stupid turnovers against the press cost us bigtime. If you don't realize this is a perennial problem that needs to be addressed now then we will continue to lose games we really should win, and kiss postseason dreams goodbye.

P.S. I really do hate Ohio State.

It hasn't been just under Collins. We have had trouble under the press for years. We lost games late under Carmody for the same reason. I lay the blame on coaching every time this kind of debacle happens, no matter who the head coach is.

 

[ricko654321]

It hasn't been just under Collins. We have had trouble under the press for years. We lost games late under Carmody for the same reason. I lay the blame on coaching every time this kind of debacle happens, no matter who the head coach is.

Yeah. I have to say, tonight and other games recently this reminded me an awful lot of watching a Carmody team. And not the good parts about it. We are obviously better at defense (helped by their inability to shoot early) and way better at rebounding.

But jeez our approach to the press was just brutal. And like with Carmody, I don't even really think it's so much a schematic problem. It's a fault in approach. We are way too passive and let the press eat us up. No one attacks it so we don't create passing angles to beat it. And the worst part (which drives me absolutely batty), is that when we do beat it we (EVERY single darned TIME) pass up the opportunity to take a 2 on 1 or 3 on 2. Instead we circle back out, pause, wait, then look around until we find McIntosh. Then we start thinking about running an offensive set with 14 left on the shot clock, and then actually set up a tired screen roll then end up with a guard stuck 1 on 1 w no help and 6 seconds left on the clock. It was so much like the Carmody press "break" that I wanted to punch something tonight.

We aren't going to score 2 on 1 every time, but I can guarantee you our odds are better than if we shot a forced 1 on 1 shot with the clock running down. Sure the guys attacking with those numbers will probably not be BMac which means not our best dribblers. But jeez, if we can't get them to trust themselves attacking in a 2 on 1 situation then I don't see how we expect those guys to develop over time.

Hopefully this is something that we adjust to cause we will certainly see more of it. But I also hoped that after the first couple times we saw press and honestly we looked just as bad or worse tonight I thought. Sensing a developing trend.

 

[ricko654321]

Yeah. I have to say, tonight and other games recently this reminded me an awful lot of watching a Carmody. And not the good parts about it. We are obviously better at defense (helped by their inability to shoot early) and way better at rebounding.

But jeez our approach to the press was just brutal. And like with Carmody, I don't even really think it's so much a schematic problem. It's a fault in approach. We are way to passive and let the press eat us up. No one attacks it so we don't create passing angles to beat it. And the worst part (which drives me absolutely batty), is that when we do beat it we (EVERY single darned TIME) pass up the opportunity to take a 2 on 1 or 3 on 2. Instead we circle back out, pause, wait, then look around until we find McIntosh. Then we start thinking about running an offensive set with 14 left on the shot clock, and then actually set up a tired screen roll then end up with a guard stuck 1 on 1 w no help and 6 seconds left on the clock. It was so much like the Carmody press "break" that I wanted to punch something tonight.

We aren't going to score 2 on 1 every time, but I can guarantee you our odds are better than if we shot a forced 1 on 1 shot with the clock running down. Sure the guys attacking with those numbers will probably not be BMac which means not our best dribblers. But jeez, if we can't get them to trust themselves attacking in a 2 on 1 situation then I don't see how we expect those guys to develop over time.

Hopefully this is something they we adjust to cause we will certainly see more of it. But I also hoped that after the first couple times we saw press and honestly we looked just as bad or worse tonight I thought. Sensing a developing trend.

This team is so finicky in terms of its confidence level. It's like the Tre Demps syndrome (plays well if he makes shots early, otherwise doesn't) gets contagious sometimes. Today it certainly felt that way late. We all got way tentative and tight. No one wanted the ball in his hands except maybe BMac and he can't do it all alone against athletic guards like that.

 

[NJCat83588]

Yeah. I have to say, tonight and other games recently this reminded me an awful lot of watching a Carmody team. And not the good parts about it. We are obviously better at defense (helped by their inability to shoot early) and way better at rebounding.

But jeez our approach to the press was just brutal. And like with Carmody, I don't even really think it's so much a schematic problem. It's a fault in approach. We are way too passive and let the press eat us up. No one attacks it so we don't create passing angles to beat it. And the worst part (which drives me absolutely batty), is that when we do beat it we (EVERY single darned TIME) pass up the opportunity to take a 2 on 1 or 3 on 2. Instead we circle back out, pause, wait, then look around until we find McIntosh. Then we start thinking about running an offensive set with 14 left on the shot clock, and then actually set up a tired screen roll then end up with a guard stuck 1 on 1 w no help and 6 seconds left on the clock. It was so much like the Carmody press "break" that I wanted to punch something tonight.

We aren't going to score 2 on 1 every time, but I can guarantee you our odds are better than if we shot a forced 1 on 1 shot with the clock running down. Sure the guys attacking with those numbers will probably not be BMac which means not our best dribblers. But jeez, if we can't get them to trust themselves attacking in a 2 on 1 situation then I don't see how we expect those guys to develop over time.

Hopefully this is something that we adjust to cause we will certainly see more of it. But I also hoped that after the first couple times we saw press and honestly we looked just as bad or worse tonight I thought. Sensing a developing trend.

How can NU practice breaking the press? They simply cannot replicate the pressure an OSU or an MSU or pretty much any Big 10 team can apply in their own practice sessions. Just not enough athletes on the roster. So what might work for NU in practice fails miserably at game speed. Couple that with no depth at guard, BMac and Tre playing 39 minutes and being completely gassed at the end of the game, and what do you expect?

 

[catsattackfor3]

In all seriousness you want to break a press....recruit a point guard who can handle the press. I have heard that from many big time coaches over the years and its true. Have a great breakdown guard no problem

 

[IdahoAlum]

How can NU practice breaking the press? They simply cannot replicate the pressure an OSU or an MSU or pretty much any Big 10 team can apply in their own practice sessions. Just not enough athletes on the roster. So what might work for NU in practice fails miserably at game speed. Couple that with no depth at guard, BMac and Tre playing 39 minutes and being completely gassed at the end of the game, and what do you expect?

Truly, whenever I watch NU get pressed, I keep hearing that Foreigner song in my head: "It feels like the first time....like the very first time..." You CAN practice against a press even if you don't have great athletes. Some coaches put six players on the floor on defense when they are practicing against a particularly athletic opponent. I've been watching teams run a diamond-and-one press for 50 years (our high school ran the "ball press" the entire game), and the key has ALWAYS been to get a player in the middle of the press and get him the ball. Last night, NU never put a player in the middle of the diamond. They kept passing the ball back and forth between the two guards and then tried to throw it over the top down the sidelines.

Listen, Chris Collins knows 100 million times more about basketball than I can ever hope to. But I simply can't believe how unprepared we LOOK whenever we get pressed. I would think Collins would devote at least 20 minutes a day of every practice just simply running press break. I sure would if it was this obvious how terrible we are in attacking a press. And maybe he does and our guys just can't carry it over to the game. In which case, it's time to recruit some guys who can break a press.

 

[NJCat83588]

Truly, whenever I watch NU get pressed, I keep hearing that Foreigner song in my head: "It feels like the first time....like the very first time..." You CAN practice against a press even if you don't have great athletes. Some coaches put six players on the floor on defense when they are practicing against a particularly athletic opponent. I've been watching teams run a diamond-and-one press for 50 years (our high school ran the "ball press" the entire game), and the key has ALWAYS been to get a player in the middle of the press and get him the ball. Last night, NU never put a player in the middle of the diamond. They kept passing the ball back and forth between the two guards and then tried to throw it over the top down the sidelines.

Listen, Chris Collins knows 100 million times more about basketball than I can ever hope to. But I simply can't believe how unprepared we LOOK whenever we get pressed. I would think Collins would devote at least 20 minutes a day of every practice just simply running press break. I sure would if it was this obvious how terrible we are in attacking a press. And maybe he does and our guys just can't carry it over to the game. In which case, it's time to recruit some guys who can break a press.

He has like 9 healthy guys on the team right now. Pretty hard to spend 20 minutes a practice doing press drills IMO. I doubt Olah, Joey or Tap are healthy enough to practice.

 

[IdahoAlum]

He has like 9 healthy guys on the team right now. Pretty hard to spend 20 minutes a practice doing press drills IMO. I doubt Olah, Joey or Tap are healthy enough to practice.

So you recruit practice players, use coaches, etc. What's the alternative? Oh, I guess we saw the alternative last night....

 

[NJCat83588]

So you recruit practice players, use coaches, etc. What's the alternative? Oh, I guess we saw the alternative last night....

FWIW, listen to the Collins interview after the game. He said they practiced it but that practice is different than game conditions. Bottom line, guys have to execute and they didn't. Give OSU credit, they are long and athletic and did enough to win.

 

[pawildcat]

In all seriousness you want to break a press....recruit a point guard who can handle the press. I have heard that from many big time coaches over the years and its true. Have a great breakdown guard no problem

Mac is fine. I don't really see anyone else on the team who is much of a ball handler, and we're not exceptionally quick. I think we sometimes tend to release players too soon against the press. Olah should always be in the backcourt to receive a pass if we're being pressed as a big guy usually is a good target, and he's not a bad FT shooter if he gets fouled.

NU is not the only team having trouble with the press. Iowa ran Purdue off the court with a press, and Purdue is deeper with more impressive personnel than we are. With the 30-second clock, you're going to see a lot more pressure from teams with good personnel as it forces the other team to run time off the clock even when it doesn't force a turnover. The 30-second clock has worked out a little better than I thought it would, but you're still seeing a lot more teams tossing up last-second shots and committing shot clock violations than was the case last season. If you have to work the ball up against a good press and have only about 20 seconds left on the clock by the time you set up, you'd better be getting the offense in gear quickly.

The main thing I see with a lot of teams against the press these days is that kids seem to dribble themselves into double teams and hang on to the ball for far too long. On the offensive end, I see far too many players standing around in the modern game. I think it's partially the result of people wanting to "space" people out for three-point attempts. A lot of teams set up in a sort of 1-4 and depend on the point guard to penetrate, draw and dish. But if you can slow the point guard, you end up with a bunch of stationary perimeter players who become easy to guard. Penn State's upset of Indiana the other night came about largely because they did a good job of shadowing Yogi Farrell, preventing him from tossing the ball to the other three-point shooters. Didn't hurt that Yogi was cold as well. A lot of today's three-point shooters (and maybe some coaches) should watch films of how Indiana sprung Steve Alford free for jumpers. Alford was not exceptionally quick or tall, but he was constantly in motion and running off screens.

 

[docrugby1]

Wisconsin raised havoc with a simple zone press. OSU obviously, looked at the tape and with a more athletic group destroyed us. A great point guard can handle a man to man press but dribbling through a zone press will result in double teams and traps. This problem is up to the coaches to fix

 

[NJCat83588]

This problem is up to the coaches to fix

Unless you think the coaches are complete morons, or that Collins is a liar, they did anticipate OSU pressing NU last night, and worked on a strategy to break it in practice. Sometimes it is more about the Jimmies and Joes than the x's and o's, and OSU just outplayed NU when it came to the press.. NU needs better Jimmies and Joes, and time will tell if they can get them.

 

[MC_Cat]

Good comments everyone, glad to have started the discussion on this topic because this has been a problem for years and until it is fixed we are going to piss away crucial games we had otherwise played well enough to win. The problem in my eyes is both the approach and the scheme. We are always on the defensive against the press, never making the opposition pay for overplaying and taking chances. The only guy on the team who seems willing to attack the pressure is Scottie Lindsay. Vic Law would do the same if he were out there, trust me. We need more guys like that. As for the scheme, I HATE the two guards nervously approaching midcourt, with one guy throwing it BACKWARDS to the other guy as the 10 second clock continues to tick down. What's left is a desperation pass either dangerously to the sideline (see Tre's turnover attempted pass to Scottie on the right sideline), a contested pass to the middle of the court (see Gavin's turnover), or a rushed dribble to try and cross midcourt in time (see another of Tre's turnovers).

I like the idea of a big like Olah (or others) flashing to the midcourt area early, getting the ball then distributing either downcourt or to one of the ballhandlers coming up from behind, like maybe the passer that got him the ball in the first place. That would spread the court and provide more options, the most important of which is a big target before the clock approaches 10 seconds. Last night's recipe and what we've been watching for years has been inept and quite frankly inexcusable.

 

[hdhntr1]

It hasn't been just under Collins. We have had trouble under the press for years. We lost games late under Carmody for the same reason. I lay the blame on coaching every time this kind of debacle happens, no matter who the head coach is.

An awful lot of teams have trouble against a solid press. The length and athleticism of OSU had a lotto do with our problems. I thought the one 10 second call was premature. The other turnover on the press was a pass OOB to Lindsey. I was more concerned with a lot of the other turnovers during that stretch. And the real issue is most of the turnovers were live ball that ended up in points for OSU.

 

[wildelk2]

NJ Cat I think you hit on something about the minutes Demps and Mac log in relation to breaking the press as time winds down. I was howling at Collins to play Ash more in the Minnesota game, not only for him to gain minutes but to prevent Mac and Demps from burning out down the stretch. I know Mac played for 36 minutes against Minnesota; I'm assuming CC wanted to make 100% sure the 5 game losing streak was broken so I can't blame him for that, but man o man was that a brutal loss Tuesday night.

 

[hoosboot]

FWIW, listen to the Collins interview after the game. He said they practiced it but that practice is different than game conditions. Bottom line, guys have to execute and they didn't. Give OSU credit, they are long and athletic and did enough to win.

How's that possible? I thought that "He has like 9 healthy guys on the team right now. Pretty hard to spend 20 minutes a practice doing press drills IMO. I doubt Olah, Joey or Tap are healthy enough to practice."

People on the football board constantly tell me that our coaches are morons and can't coach if the players don't execute on the game plan they've practiced. Is it somehow different in basketball?

At the end of the day, good teams with lesser athletes than we have can break the press when they sufficiently understand how to do so. Our guys don't look like they understand it yet. They are thinking and hesitate instead of just reacting in a way that suggests they understand what they are supposed to be doing. That doesn't make our coaches morons who can't coach. It just means that amongst the two million things they are trying to do to make our the team better, they haven't gotten the team there on breaking the press yet. It's a lot easier to work on breaking the press when you have everything else worked out and covered.

 

[hoosboot]

Mac is fine. I don't really see anyone else on the team who is much of a ball handler, and we're not exceptionally quick. I think we sometimes tend to release players too soon against the press. Olah should always be in the backcourt to receive a pass if we're being pressed as a big guy usually is a good target, and he's not a bad FT shooter if he gets fouled.

NU is not the only team having trouble with the press. Iowa ran Purdue off the court with a press, and Purdue is deeper with more impressive personnel than we are. With the 30-second clock, you're going to see a lot more pressure from teams with good personnel as it forces the other team to run time off the clock even when it doesn't force a turnover. The 30-second clock has worked out a little better than I thought it would, but you're still seeing a lot more teams tossing up last-second shots and committing shot clock violations than was the case last season. If you have to work the ball up against a good press and have only about 20 seconds left on the clock by the time you set up, you'd better be getting the offense in gear quickly.

The main thing I see with a lot of teams against the press these days is that kids seem to dribble themselves into double teams and hang on to the ball for far too long. On the offensive end, I see far too many players standing around in the modern game. I think it's partially the result of people wanting to "space" people out for three-point attempts. A lot of teams set up in a sort of 1-4 and depend on the point guard to penetrate, draw and dish. But if you can slow the point guard, you end up with a bunch of stationary perimeter players who become easy to guard. Penn State's upset of Indiana the other night came about largely because they did a good job of shadowing Yogi Farrell, preventing him from tossing the ball to the other three-point shooters. Didn't hurt that Yogi was cold as well. A lot of today's three-point shooters (and maybe some coaches) should watch films of how Indiana sprung Steve Alford free for jumpers. Alford was not exceptionally quick or tall, but he was constantly in motion and running off screens.

They should watch JJ Redick on the Clippers, too. And Steph Curry (obviously). The drive and kick mentality is schemed against relatively easily by good defensive teams, but what Curry and Redick (to a lesser degree) do is extraordinarily difficult to defend against.