In my humble opinion, Collins' biggest failure is his failure to recruit a point guard after B-Mac. Boo is not a point guard. We need a point guard who, when the game is on the line, can take it to the rack and score, draw a foul or dish to another player. Boo can't do that and we stand around the 3-point line jacking up shots. We lose virtually every close game because we don't have a point guard who can penetrate. Against Illinois, Boo drove 3 times in the last few minutes and came up empty every time. Until we get a true PG our losing will continue.
Collins' biggest failure
- Thread starter WildScott54
- Start date
- Status
That "standing around the 3 point line jacking up shots" is the offense Collins designed and prefers.
It works if your guys can consistently bury threes and your post player(s) can score inside and get on the glass.
For most teams, thats not how it plays out.
I know, I know ... there's not many over here with me on Buie. And I don't blame you. He's not the perfect player.
OTOH, I have a hard time thinking of a more productive NU player in the last 20 years who people have gone out of their way to shred.
I'll just say I don't agree at all that he can't get the ball in the lane pretty easily. Does he make the greatest decisions at that point? I might agree he's mediocre at worst in that area.
And that stupid floater drives me nuts. But that was a poor shot for BMac also. Frankly, I think it's stupidly taught by the staff.
But Buie scored 8 of NU's 13 points in the last 10 minutes of the game last night. And we're going to blame him the next day for the troubles when the game "is on the line?"
We'll play the BMac vs Boo game this summer, but you might look at how Boo's a/t and shooting % is tracking in conference compared to BMac on the tournament team.
OTOH, I have a hard time thinking of a more productive NU player in the last 20 years who people have gone out of their way to shred.
I'll just say I don't agree at all that he can't get the ball in the lane pretty easily. Does he make the greatest decisions at that point? I might agree he's mediocre at worst in that area.
And that stupid floater drives me nuts. But that was a poor shot for BMac also. Frankly, I think it's stupidly taught by the staff.
But Buie scored 8 of NU's 13 points in the last 10 minutes of the game last night. And we're going to blame him the next day for the troubles when the game "is on the line?"
We'll play the BMac vs Boo game this summer, but you might look at how Boo's a/t and shooting % is tracking in conference compared to BMac on the tournament team.
Do some blind comparisons of Buie and other players and you’ll see the Buie is a fine player.
I’d love to hear who are those PG’s, out there in the B1G, that do what the OP suggests is expected of Buie. Just need one name and I will be convinced
I’d love to hear who are those PG’s, out there in the B1G, that do what the OP suggests is expected of Buie. Just need one name and I will be convinced
Last edited:
I could be you and I would sound like a complete moron. What a tool.
Buie has improved every year. He is a warrior and I’d welcome guys like Boo Buie any time.
I like Buie and think he brings a lot of good things to the table. He is WAY more consistent this year and has had some big moments; without him, we absolutely lose that game last night. I was harsh on him for missing the front end of that last 1 and 1 but he did hit the previous pair and of course knocked down a difficult 3 when we absolutely had to have it.
I think Buie has a crafty ability to get to the lane and/or the rack most of the time but I just wish he would not go into Audige tunnel vision mode as much and instead look to dish it off on some of his drives. There's opportunity for that. Everyone on the opposing team just assumes Buie and Audige are going to shoot at certain points because that's often their MO but I think that tendency could easily be used to our advantage bigtime by opting to pass in those typically predictable instances. I just wonder if our own players would have the wherewithal to look for a pass instead of turn their backs and look for the results of the shot...
I think Buie has a crafty ability to get to the lane and/or the rack most of the time but I just wish he would not go into Audige tunnel vision mode as much and instead look to dish it off on some of his drives. There's opportunity for that. Everyone on the opposing team just assumes Buie and Audige are going to shoot at certain points because that's often their MO but I think that tendency could easily be used to our advantage bigtime by opting to pass in those typically predictable instances. I just wonder if our own players would have the wherewithal to look for a pass instead of turn their backs and look for the results of the shot...
Been saying this for going in 5 years. Collins has failed to recruit a star at any position and especially failed here. Lost his star recruit this year. That said Buie is a lot closer this year to being a solid player than he was. We are down to one or two shots way to early in the clock a game
I missed the Rutgers game, so this is my generic observation. I am amazed that the two players getting the most abuse on these boards are Pete and Boo. They are our two best players and no one else is close.
I can think of 3 point guards we tried to get but ended up 2d or 3d on the list. Cormac Ryan, now on ND, Paul Mulcahy now on Rutgers and Charlie Moore now on Miami ( also Jordan Lathom who I'm glad we didn't get). Rumor was Moore didn't make grades, Ryan and Mulcahy went elsewhere. I could also add Brumbaugh to that list.
It hasn't been for lack of trying. Yes we have been close but no cigar on many recruits.
Who could have done better? A new coach probably means Kenpom in the 100s for a few years.
Look at Nebraska. They changed coaches a few years back after a great B1G tournament and with Hoiberg they are still in the cellar. NU is even harder to recruit to.
With all the difficulties recruiting to NU we have a very competitive team. Hopefully we turn the corner
It hasn't been for lack of trying. Yes we have been close but no cigar on many recruits.
Who could have done better? A new coach probably means Kenpom in the 100s for a few years.
Look at Nebraska. They changed coaches a few years back after a great B1G tournament and with Hoiberg they are still in the cellar. NU is even harder to recruit to.
With all the difficulties recruiting to NU we have a very competitive team. Hopefully we turn the corner
Sorry to beat this drum again, but it goes back to my point in another thread. Unfortunately for all of us, this isn't the greatest roster.
Boo and Nance may be the two best players, but that doesn't mean they don't come with some basketball baggage.
The other question is who on this team do you want with the game on the line? Nance? OK, I can see that.
I'm not in love with idea at all, but I can also see working through Young as a facilitator.
Audige? Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe if I'm feeling generous.
Beran, Berry or Greer? No way!!
In other words, there's not a slam dunk choice on this team at all. There's also not a good set of options.
The comments on Nance remind me somewhat of Rasheed Wallace. When he was in Portland, in his younger years, he had enormous potential of being a very dominant player, bonafide superstar in the league. But he clearly did not want to be the man and the focus of the team. Did not like to deal with what comes with it. He stated it publicly. So Nance, maybe he's not cut out to take over games. He's still a fantastic player IMO.
To close games, go Loyola, run your things as you have run them, with discipline, the entire game. Maybe you do not have a last second miracle, you can still have a lot of wins.
Actually, I think he could. Or has.
But his point about outside shooting is on the mark. You can kill a zone defense if you shoot well from the outside. You can also kill it with ball movement. Unfortunately, we do neither well.
The point guard issue was a problem, and probably still is, but I think general lack of development is the bigger issue. This team is not young, but still seems to lack some fundamental knowledge, such as how to attack a zone defense. Beran has attributes, but I think we all expected more. Kopp never really improved. Nance has developed a game, but I am not sure it is the game we were expecting. Still waiting on Berry to break through, though it's early.
Yeah, I have beat that drum myself. I think we get lulled into thinking we have more talent than we do because each player seems to have that one game where it all comes together.
I have yet to see him improve at Indiana either. Maybe high school was his ceiling. Projecting growth is part of recruiting, but it's tricky. All kinds of factors at play. Johnny Davis at Wisconsin is Exhibit A of how a guy can grow in college. Plenty of other examples in both directions.
Sounds like you are implying they generally trend down, but if you look at the current roster...
- I see measurable improvements versus last year from: Greer, Buie, Nance, Nicholson, Beran, Nance and probably Berry
- Not sure about Audige
- Jury is out with Roper, Barnhizer, Simmons
- Williams is N/A because he is going to be leave the program this year
The criticism I see made isn't that NU players become worse players than they were when they finished high school. The criticism I see made is that NU players don't generally develop to meet or exceed the projections one might reasonably have had for them.
What I meant by trend the other direction is recruits that fail to meet or exceed expectations relative to their recruiting ranking/profile and/or players that are just flat out not qualified to play B10 level ball. Collins has brought in way too many guys like that. Ash, Brown, Falzon, Rap, Kopp, Beran, Benson, the list goes on. And he has brought in way few many guys that surprise us with their productivity to a significant extent - BMac may be the only one though you could make an argument for Lindsey. Programs like Wisconsin have lots of guys like that.
That's fine but how many B10 teams feel like they really missed out on those guys? Young/Buie look good relative to the rest of the roster, which isn't very good relative to the conference. But ultimately they are the 2nd/3rd best dudes on one of the worst teams in the B10.
vs like a Shurna or Vukusic, who came in unheralded and racked up multiple all conference 1st/2nd team honors. NU needs guys like that to win. Not guys like Beran and Kopp who come in as 4 stars and turn out to be barely playable on their best day.
I have not read this entire thread, so I apologize for any redundancies. I am not sure CC called any timeouts when the lead started to disappear, but I recall screaming at the TV to "call a timeout".
The zone Rutgers employed should have been shredded easily. Setting up the zone well outside the top of the circle should have allowed open midrange shots or passes to the baseline for cutting players. Ball movement beats that zone every time.
This is not a 3-8 team but the strategy/performance in the last 10 minutes of a game is difficult to accept.
The zone Rutgers employed should have been shredded easily. Setting up the zone well outside the top of the circle should have allowed open midrange shots or passes to the baseline for cutting players. Ball movement beats that zone every time.
This is not a 3-8 team but the strategy/performance in the last 10 minutes of a game is difficult to accept.
Coach benched one of your stars down the stretch during OT 🤷♂️ Even announcers were confused.
He can absolutely dunk and he's done it this year. Also started vs #10 MSU and was key to victory. Featured on the latest Foundation too.
Greer - measurable? Significant, probably not
Boo - improvement, yes. We’re it should be after three years in the system as a high ceiling guy?
Nance - certainly. And I credit James. And I wonder what we would see if he had been deployed properly as a stretch 4 for the last two years…
MN? Come on, man. We haven’t seen anything from him despite calls for him. And then when we do, the board says he isn’t ready. And wasn’t ready last year. Development? Ok, then play him.
I agree for the most part with most of that, but I think you are letting the two worst examples that Elwood provided slide.
What is the marked development in Beran in his three years? He appears extraordinarily similar to the player he came into NU as. He's better at a few things and worse at others, but he's mostly very much the same player.
Berry, too, is difficult to point to as a good example of development. He seems like the best example of some disappointment as he hasn't yet taken the leap forward that seemed likely. His overall numbers are up a little, but that appears to be a function of having the opportunity for some more minutes as his per minutes stats are down for the most part.
Moreover, good player development isn't just surfing on that predictable linear development that comes with natural physical development and age. It's being able to transcend that normal development by improving their impact relative to the players on other teams their own age.
True. I stopped at MN. But I agree. I expected more out of both. And I think Berry is one that might leave for a change of scenery. Along w the guys that can’t get minutes on a terrible team. Many of the bench guys must believe they can do better than the starters, whether that belief if right or wrong.
Oh give it a rest for one day, would you? Berry had a very good first half today. And it's NOT a terrible team.
With the portal and NIL, it's the wild west in college sports. Was talking with a head coach at a really solid D1 program and he said he was certain of having exactly 2 of the 17 or so players on the roster (including walk-ons) for next year. A coach can do everything right in this climate and still have massive roster turnover.
That said, I expect Berry to be a huge part of the Cats next year. He can be a really big difference maker as an upperclassman.
As soon as you get willy to give admissions a rest, we’ll talk.
Thanks hoos for conversing. There are so few left that really enjoy bouncing around ideas and debating them on the merits without insults and personal attacks.
I hope Berry stays and I think he is a valuable rotation piece that could become a featured starter. In the old days, he would be that guy at IU that played zero as a frosh and would become a star as a senior leading the Hoosiers to another dance.
Year over year performance of the players in question.
Nance - Major improvement.
- PPG 2.9/8.5/11.3/15.6. RPG 1.8/6.0/6.6/6.8. AST to TO 1.1/1.1/1.3/1.8
- PPG 10.3/10.5/15.3. RPG 2.1/2.3/2.6. AST/G 2.4/4.0/5.0. AST to TO 1.3/2.0/2.5
- PPG 1.5/1.0/2.8/4.5. RPG 1.0/0.6/1.5/2.0. AST/G 0.9/0.9/1.5/2.1. AST to TO 1.0/5/0/2.6/3.8
- PPG 9.0/7.9/9.6. RPG 6.1/4.8/4.5
- PPG 5.0/5.7/6.3. RPG 3.4/2.8/4.3. AST to TO 0.7/1.7/1.5. Steals 5/7/20
- PPG 5.3/7.7. RPG 1.5/2.3. AST/G 0.8/1.2. AST to TO 1.7/1.4
- PPG 1.0/2.1. RPG 0.7/1.5.
Lots to quibble with here, so please forgive me for being a quibbler.
It really seems like you're searching for reasons to be excited about development rather than looking at the very obvious signs. When you are pointing to block and steal % on Kenpom as reasons for why a 4-star junior has developed, it seems like one would be better off just admitting that the player really hasn't developed close to what one could reasonably hope for over just the difference between being 18 and 21 years old. It happens, but we shouldn't call it what it isn't. Because what it isn't is significant development.
Nance has taken major steps forward with consistent development each year. That's a big win. That's the kind of improvement that should be the rule.
Buie is scoring a little more this year and his assistant/turnover ratio has steadily improved, but there's not some massive development over what you'd expect as a guy gets a little older and a little stronger. Players don't typically have flat statlines over their four years. I'd call his development steady rather than major.
I'm confused how you look at Greer's stats and call it significant development, especially when you compare him right before Young. It seems a bit inconsistent to turn to Young's per minute numbers after focusing on per game numbers up to that point, particularly as Greer's per minute numbers are down while Young's overall minutes are down. That's not to say that either has regressed, but it's not evidence of significant and steady development.
Agree that Berry looks slightly improved overall, but that's what one should expect from a frosh becoming a sophomore.
And I agree that there's some hope in Nicholson's development. Big, big men are the hardest to develop and one could see him as a valuable contributor by his senior year, but the incomplete seems appropriate.
We can disagree and I am ok with that! I'd love Beran's improvement to be much greater too, but not everything can be measured in points and rebounds.
I don't know how you can't look at Buie's numbers and his team role and say that 5 additional ppg and a significantly better assist to turnover ratio is not a massive improvement. Remember there was a stretch when he wasn't starting. It's hard to imagine NU being competitive without him this year.
With Greer, it's the improvement vs. expectations and his role in prior seasons. Did anyone anticipate that he would ever be on the floor in crunch time and any key shots? I didn't see it coming. Now I hope he comes back next year.
The reason why I engaged on this thread was because some were saying that players do not develop under Collins. The numbers don't suggest that. We all wish they started at a higher level or the improvement could be greater and faster, but that has not happened, unfortunately.
There are a lot of games left this season and 10-10 in the B1G is not out of the question. Let's hope for more improvement this season.
I don't know how you can't look at Buie's numbers and his team role and say that 5 additional ppg and a significantly better assist to turnover ratio is not a massive improvement. Remember there was a stretch when he wasn't starting. It's hard to imagine NU being competitive without him this year.
With Greer, it's the improvement vs. expectations and his role in prior seasons. Did anyone anticipate that he would ever be on the floor in crunch time and any key shots? I didn't see it coming. Now I hope he comes back next year.
The reason why I engaged on this thread was because some were saying that players do not develop under Collins. The numbers don't suggest that. We all wish they started at a higher level or the improvement could be greater and faster, but that has not happened, unfortunately.
There are a lot of games left this season and 10-10 in the B1G is not out of the question. Let's hope for more improvement this season.
C'mon, man. It's okay to admit that Beran hasn't developed. It's part of being able to honestly analyze the coach and the team. Like Kopp, he hasn't realized the potential that people saw in him yet.
I don't know how you look at Buie's numbers and think that it's "massive" improvement. His per minute numbers (you liked to use those for Young) are only up very slightly and that's going from a freshman to a junior as a guy who has played north of 25 minutes per game for three years. His shooting percentage and his rebounding numbers are flat. The biggest improvement is in his assist/turnover ratio. That's nice, but it's not "massive". The credit for Buie is being able to recruit him to fill the hole left by Lathon the previous year...not as an example of great development.
With Greer, you keep moving the goalposts on the assessment to look for reasons to be excited. He's a fourth year player. Great kid. There's nothing special about his development.
Pete Nance is a great example of development that the coaches should get a lot of credit for. He averaged under 3 points per game as a frosh and is now the team's best offensive weapon. Not every kid can develop like that, but there needs to be more examples for the team to be considered a team that significantly develops talent.
Joining you in fingers crossed for 10-10. But if you feel like "the improvement could be greater and faster, but that has not happened, unfortunately", you should stop suggesting that there is great improvement where there isn't.
Last edited:
- Status
