Drastically reduce Lindsey's minutes?

[Sec.112]

The question I keep asking myself over the last three plus games - and especially tonight - is, if I was Collins, would I have the cahones to drastically reduce Lindsey's minutes? I'd want to do it to send a message.

There's no doubt his potential is light years ahead of the reserves. (Wrassler, please ... just don't ... stop).

And this team is completely different when he's "on."

But Lindsey hasn't been anywhere near on. And when he's in the off position, he generally doesn't offer much except minimal scoring.

He's clearly in his own world, and his attitude blows.

I'm not sure the team loses much when he's on the bench. And let's be clear about this, It's not because Brown and Ash are lighting it up.

The potential problems ...

* If you bench him, what kind of problem are you asking for? It's clear he needs to be handled with kid gloves.
* Are you generally waving the white flag on the season?

Is it worth it to energize the team and send a message that says this isn't who we are? This isn't what we will be in the future. Do you actually wake up the team a bit?

It's BS fan talk. My salary and reputation aren't on the line. To be fair, with that kind of salary, I'd lean toward playing it safe. And I'm not sure the benefit of trying to further establish a strong identity is worth the possible pitfalls.

But tell me you wouldn't applaud the move.

And like I said, without Lindsey, I'm not sure there's much of a difference in the team ... well, except for one half every three or four games.

 

[freewillie07]

He should no longer be a co-captain

https://northwestern.forums.rivals.com/threads/strip-scottie-of-his-co-captain-title.36370/

 

[NJCat]

The question I keep asking myself over the last three plus games - and especially tonight - is, if I was Collins, would I have the cahones to drastically reduce Lindsey's minutes? I'd want to do it to send a message.

There's no doubt his potential is light years ahead of the reserves. (Wrassler, please ... just don't ... stop).

And this team is completely different when he's "on."

But Lindsey hasn't been anywhere near on. And when he's in the off position, he generally doesn't offer much except minimal scoring.

He's clearly in his own world, and his attitude blows.

I'm not sure the team loses much when he's on the bench. And let's be clear about this, It's not because Brown and Ash are lighting it up.

The potential problems ...

* If you bench him, what kind of problem are you asking for? It's clear he needs to be handled with kid gloves.
* Are you generally waving the white flag on the season?

Is it worth it to energize the team and send a message that says this isn't who we are? This isn't what we will be in the future. Do you actually wake up the team a bit?

It's BS fan talk. My salary and reputation aren't on the line. To be fair, with that kind of salary, I'd lean toward playing it safe. And I'm not sure the benefit of trying to further establish a strong identity is worth the possible pitfalls.

But tell me you wouldn't applaud the move.

And like I said, without Lindsey, I'm not sure there's much of a difference in the team ... well, except for one half every three or four games.

Listen to BMac's post-game comments. He is clearly frustrated with the attitude on the team and how little some unnamed teammates seemed to care at the beginning of the game. Collins has little to lose by benching Scottie at this point, and needs to draw a line in the sand like he did 2 years ago with him. A coach just can't let a player hold him "hostage" with his potential if hi on-court performance isn't showing the effort he expects. Better to lose with guys who are actually putting forth the effort than to allow a cancer to spread.

 

[freewillie07]

Listen to BMac's post-game comments. He is clearly frustrated with the attitude on the team and how little some unnamed teammates seemed to care at the beginning of the game. Collins has little to lose by benching Scottie at this point, and needs to draw a line in the sand like he did 2 years ago with him. A coach just can't let a player hold him "hostage" with his potential if hi on-court performance isn't showing the effort he expects. Better to lose with guys who are actually putting forth the effort than to allow a cancer to spread.

Agree. If he wants to mope around and waste his senior season, fine. But his other three co-captains don’t want that. Something must be done.

Give more time to Gaines (the future). He’s still raw, but I liked that hard take to the rim from him late in the second half. And his defense, while still not great, is getting better.

Wish A.J. Turner was eligible this year.

 

[Fitz51]

Do whatever improves your 2018-19 season.

 

[willycat]

The question I keep asking myself over the last three plus games - and especially tonight - is, if I was Collins, would I have the cahones to drastically reduce Lindsey's minutes? I'd want to do it to send a message.

There's no doubt his potential is light years ahead of the reserves. (Wrassler, please ... just don't ... stop).

And this team is completely different when he's "on."

But Lindsey hasn't been anywhere near on. And when he's in the off position, he generally doesn't offer much except minimal scoring.

He's clearly in his own world, and his attitude blows.

I'm not sure the team loses much when he's on the bench. And let's be clear about this, It's not because Brown and Ash are lighting it up.

The potential problems ...

* If you bench him, what kind of problem are you asking for? It's clear he needs to be handled with kid gloves.
* Are you generally waving the white flag on the season?

Is it worth it to energize the team and send a message that says this isn't who we are? This isn't what we will be in the future. Do you actually wake up the team a bit?

It's BS fan talk. My salary and reputation aren't on the line. To be fair, with that kind of salary, I'd lean toward playing it safe. And I'm not sure the benefit of trying to further establish a strong identity is worth the possible pitfalls.

But tell me you wouldn't applaud the move.

And like I said, without Lindsey, I'm not sure there's much of a difference in the team ... well, except for one half every three or four games.

I would applaud loudly. was just going to say that there seems to be some chemistry problems with the team and feel it's starts with one guy. Something needs to change and while there is not much off the bench, I'd rather see guys like Brown and Gaines get more minutes. I would add Falzon to those but he really looks like he's struggling because of an injury. Maybe just go big with both Pardon and Benson on the floor together more..

 

[Hungry Jack]

I wonder what the hades is up with Lindsey.

 

[mikewebb68]

I think that you guys are being a bit too harsh on Scottie because he seems moody sometimes (and the reasons for this you will never know unless you are Scottie or close to him). Sometimes people don't shoot well. Law has gone through this, and so has BMac.

On defense, his is far from our worst defender, and seems to have gotten a lot more flak for his defense than others who clearly deserve it; namely Skelly and Ash; they are the two players you should be talking about benching at this point, imo since neither are making up for their defensive shortcomings on offense, whereas at least Scottie has the potential to get back on track and plays far better defense than both.

In fact, it has gotten so bad with Skelly that CC had Pardon and Benson on the court at the same time last night. Don't believe me? Watch the last two games and tell me how many times Skelly's man dunked on him or otherwise completely make him look silly, and the number of times it happened to Scottie. And, on those latter occasions, look at the number of times that Scottie was in no man's land because a) Skelly completely lost his man, someone else lost his man, or both.

 

[willycat]

I think that you guys are being a bit too harsh on Scottie because he seems moody sometimes (and the reasons for this you will never know unless you are Scottie or close to him). Sometimes people don't shoot well. Law has gone through this, and so has BMac.

On defense, his is far from our worst defender, and seems to have gotten a lot more flak for his defense than others who clearly deserve it; namely Skelly and Ash; they are the two players you should be talking about benching at this point, imo since neither are making up for their defensive shortcomings on offense, whereas at least Scottie has the potential to get back on track and plays far better defense than both.

In fact, it has gotten so bad with Skelly that CC had Pardon and Benson on the court at the same time last night. Don't believe me? Watch the last two games and tell me how many times Skelly's man dunked on him or otherwise completely make him look silly, and the number of times it happened to Scottie. And, on those latter occasions, look at the number of times that Scottie was in no man's land because a) Skelly completely lost his man, someone else lost his man, or both.

I'll agree with your assessment of Skelly but more on offense that Ash struggles. Also agree that they might use Benson and Pardon tandem a bit more but Lindsey has really been a drag on this team. he was supposed to be the #1 or #2 scorer and yet right now he looks like he'd rather be doing anything else then playing basketball at NU. If a healthy Falzon or Rap were available then I could definitely see Lindsey watching games, which is basically all he's doing right now but there are few any other options.

 

[mikewebb68]

I'll agree with your assessment of Skelly but more on offense that Ash struggles. Also agree that they might use Benson and Pardon tandem a bit more but Lindsey has really been a drag on this team. he was supposed to be the #1 or #2 scorer and yet right now he looks like he'd rather be doing anything else then playing basketball at NU. If a healthy Falzon or Rap were available then I could definitely see Lindsey watching games, which is basically all he's doing right now but there are few any other options.

Can't say I disagree much, but as bad as Lindsey has played in the last two, he is still our leading scorer. BMac had an awful 4 game stretch, and I would not have benched him either. Sometimes you have to let people play out of their slump, like we did with Vic last year. Scottie is too talented to be in a funk for long...

 

[corbi296]

I hate to see this happen to Lindsay. I really thought he had gotten over the hump last year and developed into the consistent, upper echelon Big Ten player he always had the potential to become. Unfortunately the disinterested, inconsistent play he is exhibiting this year are traits he exhibited regularly as a younger player. I thought he had matured enough to overcome those bad habits but unfortunately it seems those tendencies are still there.

 

[IGNORE2]

Might be worth a juggle. Let’s see a Mac, Gaines, law, Falzon, pardon start for a bit. Benson is first big in. Lindsey gets a short leash in with brown to quickly replace. Nothing left to lose. Time to build for next year.

 

[ricko654321]

I think that you guys are being a bit too harsh on Scottie because he seems moody sometimes (and the reasons for this you will never know unless you are Scottie or close to him). Sometimes people don't shoot well. Law has gone through this, and so has BMac.

On defense, his is far from our worst defender, and seems to have gotten a lot more flak for his defense than others who clearly deserve it; namely Skelly and Ash; they are the two players you should be talking about benching at this point, imo since neither are making up for their defensive shortcomings on offense, whereas at least Scottie has the potential to get back on track and plays far better defense than both.

In fact, it has gotten so bad with Skelly that CC had Pardon and Benson on the court at the same time last night. Don't believe me? Watch the last two games and tell me how many times Skelly's man dunked on him or otherwise completely make him look silly, and the number of times it happened to Scottie. And, on those latter occasions, look at the number of times that Scottie was in no man's land because a) Skelly completely lost his man, someone else lost his man, or both.

It's far from perfect and the sample size is still relatively small, but by the Box +/- numbers our top 3 players in order this are Vic Law (+7.3), Dererk Pardon (+7.1), and then Gavin Skelly (+5.6). He may at times play undisciplined, but he brings more energy to the game than the other guys. Maybe Falzon is the answer once he's fully healthy in the future, but I think Skelly needs to get the majority of the minutes right now.

I'm not sure what to do about the 2 position, to the OP's proposition...

And to your suggestion here, I'm not opposed to seeing Benson get a bit more time - though it is sort of matchup dependent. If we play against a slower C (e.g. Happ of Wisconsin) then he's a good fit. But against more mobile centers he struggles, and also teams can drag him out into screen roll situations where is much more of a liability than Pardon. Hope he continues to develop his offensive game though. Both he and Pardon have shown steady improvement in that regard.

 

[TheC]

I think that you guys are being a bit too harsh on Scottie because he seems moody sometimes (and the reasons for this you will never know unless you are Scottie or close to him). Sometimes people don't shoot well. Law has gone through this, and so has BMac.

On defense, his is far from our worst defender, and seems to have gotten a lot more flak for his defense than others who clearly deserve it; namely Skelly and Ash; they are the two players you should be talking about benching at this point, imo since neither are making up for their defensive shortcomings on offense, whereas at least Scottie has the potential to get back on track and plays far better defense than both.

In fact, it has gotten so bad with Skelly that CC had Pardon and Benson on the court at the same time last night. Don't believe me? Watch the last two games and tell me how many times Skelly's man dunked on him or otherwise completely make him look silly, and the number of times it happened to Scottie. And, on those latter occasions, look at the number of times that Scottie was in no man's land because a) Skelly completely lost his man, someone else lost his man, or both.

I have no idea if Scottie has an attitude problem or not. What I do know is that his defensive effort does not seem to be as consistent as it was last year. I've only watched on tv and the two games I saw in person in CT, but I watched his defense closely then because I think his improvement on D last year was a BIG reason for our jump. In his first two years, he was a defensive liability, but last year he seemed to take it to heart and he worked hard on D.

This year, however, you watch him and you see way too many examples of him standing up straight on D which results in getting beat on cuts, not sitting down when playing on-ball defense and thus getting beat off the dribble, and not hustling for loose balls, but rather standing still and watching other guys go after them. Now, I hesitate to criticize too much because I know playing defense is hard, but he seemed to be doing such a nice job last year and it is noticeably worse this year. If that is due to an attitude problem or a lack of desire, you can imagine that infects an entire team. If its injury or something else (e.g., so much effort expended on offensive end that he gets fatigued), then its harder to blame him, but still explains some of our troubles.

 

[mikewebb68]

It's far from perfect and the sample size is still relatively small, but by the Box +/- numbers our top 3 players in order this are Vic Law (+7.3), Dererk Pardon (+7.1), and then Gavin Skelly (+5.6). He may at times play undisciplined, but he brings more energy to the game than the other guys. Maybe Falzon is the answer once he's fully healthy in the future, but I think Skelly needs to get the majority of the minutes right now.

I'm not sure what to do about the 2 position, to the OP's proposition...

And to your suggestion here, I'm not opposed to seeing Benson get a bit more time - though it is sort of matchup dependent. If we play against a slower C (e.g. Happ of Wisconsin) then he's a good fit. But against more mobile centers he struggles, and also teams can drag him out into screen roll situations where is much more of a liability than Pardon. Hope he continues to develop his offensive game though. Both he and Pardon have shown steady improvement in that regard.

Again, watch the last two games and tell me how many times Skelly's man dunked on him or otherwise completely make him look silly. He can bring all the energy on the world; but if he looks utterly lost on defense and doesn't make up for that on offense, he's not helping right now.

 

[ricko654321]

Again, watch the last two games and tell me how many times Skelly's man dunked on him or otherwise completely make him look silly. He can bring all the energy on the world; but if he looks utterly lost on defense and doesn't make up for that on offense, he's not helping right now.

I think we are meaningfully better at defense with him on the court than Falzon. And it seems the data support that view. He's also a big help on the boards.

And I did watch the last two games, just FYI. They were painful.

 

[mikewebb68]

I think we are meaningfully better at defense with him on the court than Falzon. And it seems the data support that view. He's also a big help on the boards.

And I did watch the last two games, just FYI. They were painful.

Falzon can barely play at this point without pain. His minutes are being limited intentionally. And you know what? I still would have taken him the last two games over a healthy Skelly. The next time I see Skelly just watch a player go up for an alley oop in his area and him do absolutely nothing about it, will be the last time, I hope...

 

[TheC]

Falzon can barely play at this point without pain.

Is that a known fact or are you just speculating? Just curious, as it would be bad news, yet at least help explain his lack of productivity.

 

[hdhntr1]

The question I keep asking myself over the last three plus games - and especially tonight - is, if I was Collins, would I have the cahones to drastically reduce Lindsey's minutes? I'd want to do it to send a message.

There's no doubt his potential is light years ahead of the reserves. (Wrassler, please ... just don't ... stop).

And this team is completely different when he's "on."

But Lindsey hasn't been anywhere near on. And when he's in the off position, he generally doesn't offer much except minimal scoring.

He's clearly in his own world, and his attitude blows.

I'm not sure the team loses much when he's on the bench. And let's be clear about this, It's not because Brown and Ash are lighting it up.

The potential problems ...

* If you bench him, what kind of problem are you asking for? It's clear he needs to be handled with kid gloves.
* Are you generally waving the white flag on the season?

Is it worth it to energize the team and send a message that says this isn't who we are? This isn't what we will be in the future. Do you actually wake up the team a bit?

It's BS fan talk. My salary and reputation aren't on the line. To be fair, with that kind of salary, I'd lean toward playing it safe. And I'm not sure the benefit of trying to further establish a strong identity is worth the possible pitfalls.

But tell me you wouldn't applaud the move.

And like I said, without Lindsey, I'm not sure there's much of a difference in the team ... well, except for one half every three or four games.

Unfortunately, as of now, we do not have the depth to replace him in the lineup.. Falzon is still suffering after affects of the injury, Ash and Brown are not really replacements and while Gaines looks like he will be good, he just does not yet have an outside shot. So like it or not, we are tied to the horse that brung us and that includes Lindsey. Without his outside shot, opposing Ds just pack it in and the O just stagnates

 

[mikewebb68]

Still want to bench him? FYI, he appears to be playing hurt-- he had a wrap on his right knee and noticeably winced when he came down on that leg on the 3-point play.

 

[Sec.112]

Still want to bench him? FYI, he appears to be playing hurt-- he had a wrap on his right knee and noticeably winced when he came down on that leg on the 3-point play.

As you said, this game probably doesn't say much about whether the ship is righted or not. It think that translates to Lindsey also. Let's wait for him to do it against a team that's not on life support.

However, Lindsey did two simple things tonight that would eliminate any minor questions I have about limiting his time. Forget the scoring. Tonight you saw no ongoing signs of grousing, bitching and moaning. He was also engaged on defense.

Let's hope we can see this somewhere in the ballpark of consistently.

 

[hdhntr1]

Falzon can barely play at this point without pain. His minutes are being limited intentionally. And you know what? I still would have taken him the last two games over a healthy Skelly. The next time I see Skelly just watch a player go up for an alley oop in his area and him do absolutely nothing about it, will be the last time, I hope...

That could be because he is trying not to pick up the silly fouls that have often limited his minutes

 

[EagerFan]

In fact, iirc Skelly did get called on a foul while trying to prevent an alley oop in the second half.

 

[mikewebb68]

As you said, this game probably doesn't say much about whether the ship is righted or not. It think that translates to Lindsey also. Let's wait for him to do it against a team that's not on life support.

However, Lindsey did two simple things tonight that would eliminate any minor questions I have about limiting his time. Forget the scoring. Tonight you saw no ongoing signs of grousing, bitching and moaning. He was also engaged on defense.

Let's hope we can see this somewhere in the ballpark of consistently.

Scottie did get a T, though.

 

[mikewebb68]

In fact, iirc Skelly did get called on a foul while trying to prevent an alley oop in the second half.

Yup, first time he has attempted to break up an alley oop in ages, Was a welcome soght.

 

[Sec.112]

Scottie did get a T, though.

I was trying to think of that as a mulligan for Lindsey. I dont know how it looked on TV, but from the stands, that crew seemed pretty thin-skinned.

Four technical fouls in the game. Weren't two or three of them due to interaction with the refs? And I dont think one of the players even came close to showing up the refs.

There didn't seem to be much of any warnings/discussions from the refs either. Just ... BAM!

There was discussion this week that Ted Valentine may be retiring. Maybe that was their salute to Teddy TV - a big "look at me" game.

 

[mikewebb68]

I was trying to think of that as a mulligan for Lindsey. I dont know how it looked on TV, but from the stands, that crew seemed pretty thin-skinned.

Four technical fouls in the game. Weren't two or three of them due to interaction with the refs? And I dont think one of the players even came close to showing up the refs.

There didn't seem to be much of any warnings/discussions from the refs either. Just ... BAM!

There was discussion this week that Ted Valentine may be retiring. Maybe that was their salute to Teddy TV - a big "look at me" game.

I believe Lindsey got his for taunting another player after a block. And two of the Minny Ts were guys showing up the refs, the first and the last, imo. In fact, on the last one, Mason was essentially begging the ref to end his night...it was one of those "about time its 80-60" techs...

 

[NUCat320]

On balance, Lindsey's turned in a pretty good season. Nearly 15 ppg in the conference, and only under double figures twice.

 

[mikewebb68]

On balance, Lindsey's turned in a pretty good season. Nearly 15 ppg in the conference, and only under double figures twice.

Yeah, this was another fairly silly OP, one of many on this board in the last few months...

 

[Sec.112]

Yea, that whole asking questions is a crazy concept, especially when you present both sides of the argument.

For the short list, we'll ignore Lindsey's 3-pt%, B10 efg% and defense, and pretend he was a solid cog in the team.

 

[mikewebb68]

Yea, that whole asking questions is a crazy concept, especially when you present both sides of the argument.

For the short list, we'll ignore Lindsey's 3-pt%, B10 efg% and defense, and pretend he was a solid cog in the team.

Suggesting that Lindsey's minutes drastically be reduced, back when you posted it, and now, was just a silly post, imo.

 

[Wrestlerneverdiesasacatfan]

I believe Lindsey got his for taunting another player after a block. And two of the Minny Ts were guys showing up the refs, the first and the last, imo. In fact, on the last one, Mason was essentially begging the ref to end his night...it was one of those "about time its 80-60" techs...

Ash is tied with Lindsey from three point land and statistically tied for field goal percentage. Ash is a better ball handler and better defender!

 

[mikewebb68]

Ash is tied with Lindsey from three point land and statistically tied for field goal percentage. Ash is a better ball handler and better defender!

Ash is better than Lindsey! In fact, he's better than Trae Young! Ash should be in the NBA!

 

[ricko654321]

Suggesting that Lindsey's minutes drastically be reduced, back when you posted it, and now, was just a silly post, imo.

You are being a bit derisive and obnoxious, in my personal opinion. I didn't really think his minutes should be cut but there were some issues and trying to squelch reasonable discussion by being snarky isn't the best way to go about it. You are being sort of like the GCG guy on the football board...

 

[mikewebb68]

You are being a bit derisive and obnoxious, in my personal opinion. I didn't really think his minutes should be cut but there were some issues and trying to squelch reasonable discussion by being snarky isn't the best way to go about it. You are being sort of like the GCG guy on the football board...

Not nearly as derisive as the OP was toward Lindsey.

 

[Sec.112]

"Derisive" toward Lindsey? You betcha!! One-hundred times over. Guilty as charged. I'll be happy to lead that pack.

You're not actually implying that Lindsey shouldn't be subject to STRONG scrutiny for what has happened?

This is the gentle version of my view on Mr. Settle-for-the-Easy-Shot.

 

[NUCat320]

"Derisive" toward Lindsey? You betcha!! One-hundred times over. Guilty as charged. I'll be happy to lead that pack.

You're not actually implying that Lindsey shouldn't be subject to STRONG scrutiny for what has happened?

This is the gentle version of my view on Mr. Settle-for-the-Easy-Shot.

Among the four returning starters, only Pardon and Law have performed at similar to slightly better levels, and Mc and Lindsey have played worse.

Among the bench players, only Ash has gotten better, from a base of zero.

 

[hdhntr1]

Among the four returning starters, only Pardon and Law have performed at similar to slightly better levels, and Mc and Lindsey have played worse.

Among the bench players, only Ash has gotten better, from a base of zero.

You forgot Gaines. Again from a base of zero. But we do not have much to chose between. Benson, a little up and down. Not worse but not much better either. Falzon is not back to health.