Football Shouldn't Be Allowed to Mess Up Everybody Else

[HailToPurple]

Here is an article about how this latest craziness is affecting a womens softball player from Oregon. Bascially she will only be able to go to class one or two days a week due to the coast to coast travel reqirement.

MSN

And here is an excerpt if you don't want to read the whole thing:

“If we tried to leave on Thursday, there’s no way for us to leave at a decent hour, especially with the time change, to fully be ready for our game on Friday,” Sinicki says. “That’d mean for sure leaving on Wednesday morning most likely so that we really only go to school Monday/Tuesday which for me personally is hard. I’m a Human physiology major and a lot of our classes are offered Tuesday-Thursday like bio and chemistry. Even my higher-and upper-division classes. Realistically going to school one or two days a week for travel days like that for the Big Ten.”

These conference changes are grossly unfair to many non-football athletes, but the people in charge really don't care about them.

This is really about nothing else but money, money, and more money.

Too bad for you non-football players. You don't count anymore. You are really pretty much dispensable in the world of football and big money.

 

[JimStarr777]

Here is an article about how this latest craziness is affecting a womens softball player from Oregon. Bascially she will only be able to go to class one or two days a week due to the coast to coast travel reqirement.

MSN

And here is an excerpt if you don't want to read the whole thing:

“If we tried to leave on Thursday, there’s no way for us to leave at a decent hour, especially with the time change, to fully be ready for our game on Friday,” Sinicki says. “That’d mean for sure leaving on Wednesday morning most likely so that we really only go to school Monday/Tuesday which for me personally is hard. I’m a Human physiology major and a lot of our classes are offered Tuesday-Thursday like bio and chemistry. Even my higher-and upper-division classes. Realistically going to school one or two days a week for travel days like that for the Big Ten.”

These conference changes are grossly unfair to many non-football athletes, but the people in charge really don't care about them.

This is really about nothing else but money, money, and more money.

Too bad for you non-football players. You don't count anymore. You are really pretty much dispensable in the world of football and big money.

It’s sickening and sadly another reason to dislike collegiate sports at the d1 level.

 

[phatcat]

However, football provides ALL of the money to non revenue sports. MBB is largely breake even/pays for itself. Also, because of title IX (?), there are 85 scholarships in women's sports because of football.

Intercollegiate sports at FBS level exist because of football.

I am ok with like a much less money oriented program, but, make no mistake, these programs owe themselves to football

 

[HailToPurple]

However, football provides ALL of the money to non revenue sports. MBB is largely breake even/pays for itself. Also, because of title IX (?), there are 85 scholarships in women's sports because of football.

Intercollegiate sports at FBS level exist because of football.

I am ok with like a much less money oriented program, but, make no mistake, these programs owe themselves to football

No doubt that football pays for a lot of other sports. But that is still no reason to make the other sports have to deal with coast to coast weekday travel due to all of these conference changes. Leave the regional conferences alone and let football do whatever they want. It can still pay for the other sports.

 

[FanatiCat]

When you multiply the travel costs for non revenue sports, which may have more games than football, the cost will be huge.

That being said, D2 and D3 schools somehow fund travel for dozens of varsity sports even though they don’t have millions of dollars in TV profits from football and MBB.

 

[phatcat]

No doubt that football pays for a lot of other sports. But that is still no reason to make the other sports have to deal with coast to coast weekday travel due to all of these conference changes. Leave the regional conferences alone and let football do whatever they want. It can still pay for the other sports.

Just to be clear, these sports exist under the aegis and largesse of football. They wouldnt exist without it. There is no other economic model, except horse racing, where the athletes that provide the value-add get only nominal renumeration while so many others benefit. Further, it is a mandated relationship. If 85 football scholarships, then 85 other scholarships.

I'm in favor of something like an FCS model for FBS football, but that ship has sailed.

Finally, non revenue athletes...boohoo. take some classes via Zoom.

 

[HailToPurple]

Just to be clear, these sports exist under the aegis and largesse of football. They wouldnt exist without it.

Not really. Look at FanatiCat's post above regarding D2 and D3 schools. If they can manage without the millions of dollars in TV profits from football, then certainly D1 schools could find some way to do the same.

 

[its_the_sauce]

Please...

These teams already travel a lot. Ever look at our softball team's pre-season schedule. Golf teams also chalk up some frequent flyer miles as well. I'm sure Oregon travels just as much.

Some extra travel for conference games doesn't make that big a difference

 

[mesacat]

How does U of Chicago pay for 20 different mens and women's varsity sports teams after dropping BT membership in 1939?

 

[NUCat320]

I don’t understand what value the conference structure brings for football.

Why not take the 64ish teams, break them entirely from their old-school, irrelevant regional pseudo structure, protect a few rivalries, and go full national?

Minnesota-Rutgers and Minnesota-Kansas State are equally relevant. Northwestern-Oregon and Northwestern-Georgia Tech are equally relevant. South Carolina can play anybody, and nobody would still notice. Washington and Washington State would still prefer to play, and will likely be locked out of it.

Sure, there will be weird protected rivalries, and some that were valuable to one side will be left in the dust (sayonara, Michigan-Minnesota trophy), but there’s nothing to prevent an enterprising coach from inventing a new CIVIL CONFLICT trophy. (And I would welcome an annual purple Wildcat battle against @12375CAT. The trash talk would be epic.)

The answer, of course, is the existence of these conference TV deals but, srsly, there’s more than enough absurd money to go around. Live sports is the only media property worth anything, even NU-South Florida (kind of).

 

[Pulmocat]

The addition of USC,UCLA, Oregon and Washington will massively improve the BT Olympic sports. Every competitive athlete worth having on our non revenue teams has got to be incredibly excited to compete against a new group of great athletes. Running at Oregon, swimming at UCLA... what a gift!!!

 

[HailToPurple]

Please...

These teams already travel a lot. Ever look at our softball team's pre-season schedule. Golf teams also chalk up some frequent flyer miles as well. I'm sure Oregon travels just as much.

Some extra travel for conference games doesn't make that big a difference

From the article I posted at the beginning of the thread apparently some of the women at Oregon would not agree with you at all.

 

[FeralFelidae]

Just to be clear, these sports exist under the aegis and largesse of football. They wouldnt exist without it. There is no other economic model, except horse racing, where the athletes that provide the value-add get only nominal renumeration while so many others benefit. Further, it is a mandated relationship. If 85 football scholarships, then 85 other scholarships.

I'm in favor of something like an FCS model for FBS football, but that ship has sailed.

Finally, non revenue athletes...boohoo. take some classes via Zoom.

There are professional football leagues for professional football players.

 

[phatcat]

Not really. Look at FanatiCat's post above regarding D2 and D3 schools. If they can manage without the millions of dollars in TV profits from football, then certainly D1 schools could find some way to do the same.

Sure. And with zero (D3) or limited (D2) scholarships and mostly antiquated facilities. Also, I would guess they ride busses from places like Decorah, IA to Dubuque, IA for games. Any B1G athlete that wants to donthat can go ahead. Nobody holding a gun to their head

 

[HailToPurple]

Sure. And with zero (D3) or limited (D2) scholarships and mostly antiquated facilities. Also, I would guess they ride busses from places like Decorah, IA to Dubuque, IA for games. Any B1G athlete that wants to donthat can go ahead. Nobody holding a gun to their head

The problem I have is with your earlier statement:

"Just to be clear, these sports exist under the aegis and largesse of football. They wouldnt exist without it."

There would be some differences without the funding to these other sports from football, and they might have to struggle a little with costs, but to say that they wouldn't exist is a gross overstatement and simply not true. Just to be very clear on that.

 

[JournCat]

Sure. And with zero (D3) or limited (D2) scholarships and mostly antiquated facilities. Also, I would guess they ride busses from places like Decorah, IA to Dubuque, IA for games. Any B1G athlete that wants to donthat can go ahead. Nobody holding a gun to their head

This dismissive attitude has infected the discourse here since that fateful Friday afternoon last month. Are you an athlete reporting hazing? Toughen up and stop looking for a paycheck. A non-revenue athlete worried about travel? Be grateful or transfer. A student journalist? Just shut the hell up.

 

[CatManTrue]

This dismissive attitude has infected the discourse here since that fateful Friday afternoon last month. Are you an athlete reporting hazing? Toughen up and stop looking for a paycheck. A non-revenue athlete worried about travel? Be grateful or transfer. A student journalist? Just shut the hell up.

Another question to consider: Are you teasing a bull? If so, wise up and don’t.

 

[corbi296]

When you multiply the travel costs for non revenue sports, which may have more games than football, the cost will be huge.

That being said, D2 and D3 schools somehow fund travel for dozens of varsity sports even though they don’t have millions of dollars in TV profits from football and MBB.

Yes but they don’t offer scholarships or if they do, there are only a few to go around.

 

[corbi296]

How does U of Chicago pay for 20 different mens and women's varsity sports teams after dropping BT membership in 1939?

They don’t offer scholarships and their coaching staffs/facilities are bare bones.

 

[corbi296]

The problem I have is with your earlier statement:

"Just to be clear, these sports exist under the aegis and largesse of football. They wouldnt exist without it."

There would be some differences without the funding to these other sports from football, and they might have to struggle a little with costs, but to say that they wouldn't exist is a gross overstatement and simply not true. Just to be very clear on that.

NU woman’s lacrosse would not exist in its current form. Izzy Skane would probably not be at NU without a scholarship. Kelly Amonte Hiller would not be coaching at NU without the revenues from football that help pay her salary. Those sports would exist but they would be the equivalent of a glorified club sports team.

I hate where college sports is currently and where this is heading but I fear there is no stopping it now.

 

[NJCat]

That being said, D2 and D3 schools somehow fund travel for dozens of varsity sports even though they don’t have millions of dollars in TV profits from football and MBB.

I doubt DII and DIII are flying charter from coast to coast though. I suspect that the majority are playing games against schools close enough to go by bus or school vans. Huge difference from DI Power school scheduling.

 

[phatcat]

This dismissive attitude has infected the discourse here since that fateful Friday afternoon last month. Are you an athlete reporting hazing? Toughen up and stop looking for a paycheck. A non-revenue athlete worried about travel? Be grateful or transfer. A student journalist? Just shut the hell up.

Hmm, you've obviously not seen what I've read since the scandal broke.

In fact, I am lifting up the student journalists. Nobody wants to find out they have cancer, but it's better than NOT finding out. Thank the Lord for the Daily.

You have me on the wrong side of the debate. I am firmly in favor of Fitz's dismissal, despite the administration's Keystone Kops approach. Further, I feel like it has tainted his entire career. His spiel about molding young men and taking care of a parent's kid now ring hollow. I like athletics, but am, first and foremost, a supporter of my university. The widespread humiliation caused by this will have ramifications for years, especially since Fitz preached exactly the opposite of what occurred.

I get the travel problem. I recall Gaddis Rathel and Art Aaron stumbling into a 9am class after a night game in MN the night before. But let's have some perspective. The non revenue sports, to put it kindly, are the remora to the football shark. To put it unkindly, they are more like a sea lamprey. They would not exist in their current state without football. Now, If I had my druthers, I'd go back to the Big TEN from the 60s-80s, bring back the tie, traditional bowls and get rid of replays. But I know those won't happen.

 

[hdhntr1]

No doubt that football pays for a lot of other sports. But that is still no reason to make the other sports have to deal with coast to coast weekday travel due to all of these conference changes. Leave the regional conferences alone and let football do whatever they want. It can still pay for the other sports.

Many of these other programs have multiple games per week unlike FB that is just one

 

[HailToPurple]

NU woman’s lacrosse would not exist in its current form. Izzy Skane would probably not be at NU without a scholarship. Kelly Amonte Hiller would not be coaching at NU without the revenues from football that help pay her salary. Those sports would exist but they would be the equivalent of a glorified club sports team.

I hate where college sports is currently and where this is heading but I fear there is no stopping it now.

You do not know those things to be facts. Just your opinion on the matter. There are many sources of money for a university to have in order to fund a sport. Football revenue is just one of them. So you have proved nothing.

 

[mesacat]

Johns Hopkins are in Big Ten lacrosse leagues and don't seem too need fb revenue for support. Bet they have other varsity sports Prob not a lot of NIL money either.

 

[corbi296]

You do not know those things to be facts. Just your opinion on the matter. There are many sources of money for a university to have in order to fund a sport. Football revenue is just one of them. So you have proved nothing.

Just like you don’t know that they would continue to exist. That also is your opinion. Your hypothesis seems to rest on the implied assumption that NU would dip into its endowment or that NU could raise donations from Alumni specifically to support continued non revenue sport scholarships and coaching salaries. I find those assumptions to be highly dubious and not based on any sort of anecdotal evidence.

 

[HailToPurple]

NU is the same as all other DI schools. True that a lot of the expenses for other sports are helped with money from football. But that doesn't mean there aren't any other sources of funds.

So the argument that we would loose our coaching staffs is exactly the same for other schools. NU isn't any different.

If our best coachs were to leave there is no place that they could go that would have more funding for them than we have.

 

[Fitz51]

NU is the same as all other DI schools. True that a lot of the expenses for other sports are helped with money from football. But that doesn't mean there aren't any other sources of funds.

So the argument that we would loose our coaching staffs is exactly the same for other schools. NU isn't any different.

If our best coachs were to leave there is no place that they could go that would have more funding for them than we have.

I’m thinking we would tighten our coaching staffs.

 

[corbi296]

NU is the same as all other DI schools. True that a lot of the expenses for other sports are helped with money from football. But that doesn't mean there aren't any other sources of funds.

So the argument that we would loose our coaching staffs is exactly the same for other schools. NU isn't any different.

If our best coachs were to leave there is no place that they could go that would have more funding for them than we have.

The 25-35 schools in a hypothetical mega conference would have the funds to support elite teams/coaches for other sports as well.

 

[HailToPurple]

But the question as I said in the first post is what is most fair to the athletes in the other sports.

And the answer is not more money for the school.

The answer is to let them continue to compete on a regional basis with schools that they share long time rivalries with and don't force them to spend inordinate amounts of time traveling across the country to play schools that they really don't care about anyhow.

That's what is fair. Taking that away from them is just greed to get more money for the school.

And if you will read the article I referenced you'll hear what I am saying directly from a female softball player. So this is not just me against these changes. Much more important it is the women players themselves.

Why aren't the powers that be listening to them. Don't bother answering that question. We already know the answer. It begins with m and ends with y.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

But the question as I said in the first post is what is most fair to the athletes in the other sports.

And the answer is not more money for the school.

The answer is to let them continue to compete on a regional basis with schools that they share long time rivalries with and don't force them to spend inordinate amounts of time traveling across the country to play schools that they really don't care about anyhow.

That's what is fair. Taking that away from them is just greed to get more money for the school.

And if you will read the article I referenced you'll hear what I am saying directly from a female softball player. So this is not just me against these changes. Much more important it is the women players themselves.

Why aren't the powers that be listening to them. Don't bother answering that question. We already know the answer. It begins with m and ends with y.

How is a more keeping the National conference alignment versus shifting to a more regionalized conference for non-revenue sports about money? It’s about stupidity. It is very clear it has been about money for revenue sports 50+ years.

I agree with the premise that non-revenue sports don’t need to travel cross country for a regular season game. To me, the powers to be in Conferences and Athletic Department don’t care all that much about Sally Softball player completely her studies remotely.

There is also this pesky law called Title VI. As long as there is football there will be plenty of women sports. If there isn’t football there will be many less woman scholarships. Title VI dismantled many men’s Swimming, Tennis, Wrestling and Gymnastics teams at many schools. Why? It’s because there the law required gender based equality for scholarship opportunities. All those men sports don’t make money. Poof, gone. The exact same thing would happen to women’s athletic teams if the school no longer required to have that equality. Football has 85 full scholarships and they are one of the best things that ever happened to women’s collegiate athletics.

 

[HailToPurple]

To me, the powers to be in Conferences and Athletic Department don’t care all that much about Sally Softball player completely her studies remotely.

And that is exactly the problem I've been trying to address here. The "nationalization" of men's football is taking a very large toll on players in other sports.

The solution is actually very simple.

Leave the NCAA alone and allow it serve all sports except football. Return some of the teams like UCLA and USC back to their original regional conference for everything other than football.

Then create an entirely new body, probably call it the NCFA, National Collegiate Football Association, for football with all of the D1 schools. Leave the D2 and D3 football where it is in regional conferences.

A very simple solution with zero costs. Funding for non-football sports would still be exactly the same as it is now.

I don't see any problem at all with this solution. To me it is an ideal one.

 

[eastbaycat99]

I suggested a B1G approach in another thread where the conference add Stanford, Cal and one other western school (maybe SDSU or Oregon State), have the football teams play in three national divisions that rebalance based on recent history every 3 or 4 years, and three regional divisions for all other sports. Athletes in sports other than football would have a few opportunities for out of region games but mot travel would be similar to now.

It seems to me the conference has the opportunity to have the best of both worlds if the powers that be just get their heads out of their a**es.

 

[hdhntr1]

You do not know those things to be facts. Just your opinion on the matter. There are many sources of money for a university to have in order to fund a sport. Football revenue is just one of them. So you have proved nothing.

It is a fact. Whole series of facts actually. BTN gives $100 million a year. That funds that entire athletic department at NU. Without FB that would not exist. Title 9 forces huge number of women's athletic scholarships. Many women's sports would not exist without 85 FB scholarships forcing that. Think that the the indoor practice facility doesn't make a difference in women's lacrosse? That would not exist without NU FB, Think Ryan's donations would be there without FB? That funds all the infrastructure

 

[hdhntr1]

NU is the same as all other DI schools. True that a lot of the expenses for other sports are helped with money from football. But that doesn't mean there aren't any other sources of funds.

So the argument that we would loose our coaching staffs is exactly the same for other schools. NU isn't any different.

If our best coachs were to leave there is no place that they could go that would have more funding for them than we have.

You are dreaming. Did you see NU sports prior to 1995? NU would not put money into anything sports related for men or women. Every one of the sports was starving. NU did the bare minimum and often even that would have been an improvement. Without BTN and FB (which is the basis for everything athletic), almost nothing would exist and that definitely includes women's lacrosse

 

[HailToPurple]

It is a fact. Whole series of facts actually. BTN gives $100 million a year. That funds that entire athletic department at NU. Without FB that would not exist. Title 9 forces huge number of women's athletic scholarships. Many women's sports would not exist without 85 FB scholarships forcing that. Think that the the indoor practice facility doesn't make a difference in women's lacrosse? That would not exist without NU FB, Think Ryan's donations would be there without FB? That funds all the infrastructure

I don't think you understand what I am suggesting here. It would change none of what you claim.

I'll explain it some more. There would now be two separate organizations. The NCAA would remain exactly the same as now with the exception that football would no longer be a part of it.

The new NCFA would now have all, or most, of the D1 football teams. The only difference would be that the non-football teams would play different schools than the football teams.

I don't see how that matters to the football program at all. It would be completely independent from all of the other sports. And it would still bring in the same amount of revenue as it does now.

How that money gets used would be up to the university. And I don't see any reason why the football program would or should care how that money is spent.

To be clear, however, my proposal means creating the new NCFA right now before any more realignment takes place. I realize that's not likely to happen, but I still think it would be by far the best solution.

 

[hdhntr1]

Johns Hopkins are in Big Ten lacrosse leagues and don't seem too need fb revenue for support. Bet they have other varsity sports Prob not a lot of NIL money either.

Actually them having Mens Lacrosse is only possible because they do not have FB. If they did, unlikely they would be able to offer scholarships for men's Lacrosse

 

[hdhntr1]

I don't think you understand what I am suggesting here. It would change none of what you claim.

I'll explain it some more. There would now be two separate organizations. The NCAA would remain exactly the same as now with the exception that football would no longer be a part of it.

The new NCFA would now have all, or most, of the D1 football teams. The only difference would be that the non-football teams would play different schools than the football teams.

I don't see how that matters to the football program at all. It would be completely independent from all of the other sports. And it would still bring in the same amount of revenue as it does now.

How that money gets used would be up to the university. And I don't see any reason why the football program would or should care how that money is spent.

To be clear, however, my proposal means creating the new NCFA right now before any more realignment takes place. I realize that's not likely to happen, but I still think it would be by far the best solution.

Read the thread. I commented on your statement indicating that you felt that NU womens lacrosse did not owe it's existence in its present form to NU Football

 

[HailToPurple]

Read the thread. I commented on your statement indicating that you felt that NU womens lacrosse did not owe it's existence in its present form to NU Football

You still don't understand my point. If football was separated out into a football only conference the schools would still receive exactly the same amount of money that they do now.

There would be no difference in the schools' income. So there likewise would be no difference in the amount of money available for salaries of the coaches with any of the other sports.

There would be zero impact on womens lacrosse or anything else. You seem to think that putting football into its own conference would somehow reduce the income from it. But there is no basis for that to happen.

In fact with some new prestige rivalries the income might even be higher. It certainly wouldn't be less.

 

[zeek55]

I don’t understand what value the conference structure brings for football.

Why not take the 64ish teams, break them entirely from their old-school, irrelevant regional pseudo structure, protect a few rivalries, and go full national?

Minnesota-Rutgers and Minnesota-Kansas State are equally relevant. Northwestern-Oregon and Northwestern-Georgia Tech are equally relevant. South Carolina can play anybody, and nobody would still notice. Washington and Washington State would still prefer to play, and will likely be locked out of it.

Sure, there will be weird protected rivalries, and some that were valuable to one side will be left in the dust (sayonara, Michigan-Minnesota trophy), but there’s nothing to prevent an enterprising coach from inventing a new CIVIL CONFLICT trophy. (And I would welcome an annual purple Wildcat battle against @12375CAT. The trash talk would be epic.)

The answer, of course, is the existence of these conference TV deals but, srsly, there’s more than enough absurd money to go around. Live sports is the only media property worth anything, even NU-South Florida (kind of).

I think the biggest problem with separating football out is that the biggest schools would take advantage of that to implement structures through which they benefit themselves the most. That's a real problem with what you and @HailToPurple describe.

That's the key financial purpose of the conference structure, to ensure that the economic benefits (money) are spread relatively equally across all members for the sports that bring the money into the conference.

Here's the issue: The moment you separate football, the football powers with huge attendance/viewership will create a league of 20-25 of themselves where they earn $150 million per school from TV money. Or maybe they take the 30-35 highest or some number. But how do we get a seat at that table? Why do we? 100+ years of Big Ten affiliation is why we have a seat here. Keeping the Big Ten strong (even if it goes national) has to be the only "national" objective of NU's AD.

Why would the biggest brands keep sharing the football TV money if they can keep a regional home for non-football sports without the conference structure and without sharing the money?

That's why I think any small school in the Big Ten or SEC (or even Big 12) would be hesitant to allow a football split off to happen. Nobody would benefit except Alabama, Ohio State, Georgia, Michigan, Florida, Penn State, etc. They'd be able to cut everyone else out in the sport that brings in most of the money.

I don't think that a school like Northwestern would get a seat at the table in such a world; we'd basically be relegated. Maybe they keep us around in non-football sports for that easy access to a big market like Chicago, but we'd be competing against far richer ADs and our boosters would have no incentive to try to keep up with that with just donations but no revenue stream.