Forde Nails NU

[phatcat]

I think you have complaining confused with constructive criticism. Honestly tell me you didn't think it took way to long to replace Cushing. Or that you think it's just fine that our "fans " sell their tickets to the opposition. Mike is a NU fan and they need a hell of a lot more of them. I'll be waiting for your positive post tomorrow regarding our fandom, mostly dressed in Scarlet and Gray.

Agreed. All of the things he attributes to Mikero are fair game

Fitz accepts the accolades when they come his way - the narrative that he has less talented players but somehow gets the most out of them. Makes him look like a genius, and he basks in it. Have you every heard him refute it and say "are you kidding? We put kids in the NFL almost every year! They are talented"

Then he is all butt hurt when someone criticizes him when things don't go well

He is what ? 45? Should be in the prime of his career (as evidenced by last 4 years wins). Instead the offense looks like he just took over from someone that got fired (e.g any Illinois coach this century). Or as Shoat Cooper put it, a bunch of turds that dropped from a tall cow's a$$

 

[JournCat]

Agreed. All of the things he attributes to Mikero are fair game

Fitz accepts the accolades when they come his way - the narrative that he has less talented players but somehow gets the most out of them. Makes him look like a genius, and he basks in it. Have you every heard him refute it and say "are you kidding? We put kids in the NFL almost every year! They are talented"

Then he is all butt hurt when someone criticizes him when things don't go well

He is what ? 45? Should be in the prime of his career (as evidenced by last 4 years wins). Instead the offense looks like he just took over from someone that got fired (e.g any Illinois coach this century). Or as Shoat Cooper put it, a bunch of turds that dropped from a tall cow's a$$

Probably the most disappointing thing is we have a defense good enough to go back to Indianapolis. An average offense (say ranked in the 70s in the FBS) would have beaten Stanford and Nebraska and maybe Wisconsin if you take the 14 freebie points off the board. It'd be another thing if we just sucked because we were rebuilding. I don't know how you're a "fake fan" for lamenting that.

 

[corbi296]

I think you have complaining confused with constructive criticism. Honestly tell me you didn't think it took way to long to replace Cushing. Or that you think it's just fine that our "fans " sell their tickets to the opposition. Mike is a NU fan and they need a hell of a lot more of them. I'll be waiting for your positive post tomorrow regarding our fandom, mostly dressed in Scarlet and Gray.

There is nothing constructive about what you and Mikero post about. You guys are two peas in a pod.

Like i’ve said repeatedly, the only legitimate target of your complaints should be Fitz because everything that has happened and is happening is a direct result of his philosophy and the decisions he has made. The talent we have on offense right now, the offensive philosophy, the play calling, the makeup of past and current coaching staffs is solely attributable to Fitz. I have been critical of certain decisions he has made or not made but I also believe that he made many more good decisions than bad ones and the unprecedented success this program has had on his watch reflects that. Fitz is an outstanding coach, leader and representative of the University. I can’t imagine anyone being better suited to be NU’s head football coach. Fitz is not perfect but the good far outweighs the bad and I always keep that in mind when I am posting about him and the team.

 

[Mr Wickerpark]

LOL. Three of the best coaches in the history of their respective programs. Guys who are not just living on past success but who have had strong recent success. All of a sudden they have a slow start to a season and clowns like Pat Forde come out with these sweeping generalizations. I don’t blame Fitz for saying he doesn’t care. If he had listened to sports writers and fans, he would have gotten himself fired a long time ago.

Clowns?
I think the article made "good sense".
You can disagree and continue to support McCall. Neither opinion makes someone a clown but you should know the saying by now?

 

[SmellyCat]

Ball control offense doesn't mean having your running back predictably smash into the butts of his linemen every other play, for no gain. Well, maybe that is ball control--for the opposing team.

Right. What I dislike most about the offense is not that it's bad, it's that it's predictable. It just happens to be bad because it's so predictable.

Yes, an even "mediocre" offense paired with this defense could yield great things, such as last year's divisional championship. One can say that last year's numbers don't even rise to the level of "mediocre," but there were certainly flashes of great offense in a number of games we really haven't seen this year.

Please don't mistake that understanding what Fitz's overall coaching strategy is equates to liking its execution in 2019.

 

[AtlantaCat]

Clowns?
I think the article made "good sense".
You can disagree and continue to support McCall. Neither opinion makes someone a clown but you should know the saying by now?

There have been many straw men attacked in this thread. I agree that the Forde material quoted is "spot on".

 

[AtlantaCat]

[QUOTE="Please don't mistake that understanding what Fitz's overall coaching strategy is equates to liking its execution in 2019.[/QUOTE]

Cue Coach John McKay joke.

 

[hoosboot]

Ball control offense doesn't mean having your running back predictably smash into the butts of his linemen every other play, for no gain. Well, maybe that is ball control--for the opposing team.

You're correct...it doesn't mean that.

 

[hoosboot]

Yards per play independent of everything else doesn't paint a complete picture. I think that's part of Corbi's point. There are a lot of variables that go into being successful and siloing stats into offensive and defensive performance that don't address any of those variables isn't always helpful.

That's not to say that anyone should be happy with the offense we've played so far this year.

 

[phatcat]

There is nothing constructive about what you and Mikero post about. You guys are two peas in a pod.

Consider this - how many of us are there in the WORLD that care enough about NU football to get this jacked up about it? 5000? Can you imagine if he was the coach at any other competitive P5 school? and what does constructive look like? 'Lord Fitz, pray, please consider making some minor adjustments to your strategy when we have the ball, so that we are not the absolute worst offense in FBS'?

 

[DaCat]

Yards per play independent of everything else doesn't paint a complete picture. I think that's part of Corbi's point. There are a lot of variables that go into being successful and siloing stats into offensive and defensive performance that don't address any of those variables isn't always helpful.

Agreed.

What about points scored? I believe we are dead last in the FBS.

 

[SmellyCat]

Please don't mistake that understanding what Fitz's overall coaching strategy is equates to liking its execution in 2019.

Cue Coach John McKay joke.

I love that joke, and I've thought of it often during the last six weeks.

 

[corbi296]

Consider this - how many of us are there in the WORLD that care enough about NU football to get this jacked up about it? 5000? Can you imagine if he was the coach at any other competitive P5 school? and what does constructive look like? 'Lord Fitz, pray, please consider making some minor adjustments to your strategy when we have the ball, so that we are not the absolute worst offense in FBS'?

I happen to agree with their approach and believe what we are seeing is about as good as it’s going to get right now given the deficiencies and inexperience on the OL and QB. I understand others see it differently and my point to them is their anger and frustration at McCall as the source of the problem is misplaced. They should be blaming Fitz, because everything we see right now with this offense is directly attributable to Fitz’s philosophy and decision making. McCall is following Fitz’s lead.

 

[PlayStrongPlayProud]

I happen to agree with their approach and believe what we are seeing is about as good as it’s going to get right now given the deficiencies and inexperience on the OL and QB. I understand others see it differently and my point to them is their anger and frustration at McCall as the source of the problem is misplaced. They should be blaming Fitz, because everything we see right now with this offense is directly attributable to Fitz’s philosophy and decision making. McCall is following Fitz’s lead.

Corbi, you didn't respond to my previous post. How do you define success for McCall? How can you tell whether he is a good OC or a bad OC? What metrics should he be judged on? How do you tell if he is improving, getting worse or has flatlined?

Others are pointing to points per game, yards per game, etc. What metrics do you look at?

 

[wildcatpn]

I happen to agree with their approach and believe what we are seeing is about as good as it’s going to get right now given the deficiencies and inexperience on the OL and QB. I understand others see it differently and my point to them is their anger and frustration at McCall as the source of the problem is misplaced. They should be blaming Fitz, because everything we see right now with this offense is directly attributable to Fitz’s philosophy and decision making. McCall is following Fitz’s lead.

People would probably take you more seriously if you would add an occassional "in my opinion" to your posts. You have no idea what decision making and philosophy McCall and Fitz talk about and you also have no idea the extent to which McCall is following Fitz's lead. You make is sound like McCall is just a puppet and Fitz controls his every movement and thought. Simply not true.

 

[Southport Cat]

They are not mutually exclusive. An efficient, opportunistic and productive offense with a dominant defense fits Fitz's ideal of complementary football. Statically speaking, that may very well translate into a "mediocre" offense. Fitz's goal is not to have an offense that tops the statistical charts. His goal is to win as many games as possible and he believes that NU's best path to that goal is to pair a dominant defense with a ball control offense.

I'm sorry, but wouldn't paring a dominant defense with a dominant offense be the best path to winning as many games as possible? The idea that "just barely good enough" is a better target than "best in the country" makes zero sense to me.

 

[hoosboot]

Agreed.

What about points scored? I believe we are dead last in the FBS.

Which is a better win...the one where you win 9-7 or the one where you win 72-70?

 

[corbi296]

I'm sorry, but wouldn't paring a dominant defense with a dominant offense be the best path to winning as many games as possible? The idea that "just barely good enough" is a better target than "best in the country" makes zero sense to me.

How do you define “dominant offense”? If by that you mean a high scoring, pass dominant offense that tops the offensive statistical charts then I would say that yes that type of offense is largely incompatible with a dominant defense which also tops the statistical charts. The two have rarely been paired together and the reason is that they don’t complement each other.

 

[corbi296]

Corbi, you didn't respond to my previous post. How do you define success for McCall? How can you tell whether he is a good OC or a bad OC? What metrics should he be judged on? How do you tell if he is improving, getting worse or has flatlined?

Others are pointing to points per game, yards per game, etc. What metrics do you look at?

In McCall’s case I would argue that wins and QB development are the two best ways to judge the job he is doing given the constraints Fitz has imposed. Maybe also time of possession and turnovers would be other stats to measure efficiency and execution.

 

[FanatiCat]

In McCall’s case I would argue that wins and QB development are the two best ways to judge the job he is doing given the constraints Fitz has imposed. Maybe also time of possession and turnovers would be other stats to measure efficiency and execution.

Outside of the UNLV game, against P5 competition this year our offense has directly given up 50% of the total points that it has scored (21 vs 42). That has to be some kind of record!

 

[AtlantaCat]

Which is a better win...the one where you win 9-7 or the one where you win 72-70?

In the word of gcg, yes.

 

[corbi296]

Outside of the UNLV game, against P5 competition this year our offense has directly given up 50% of the total points that it has scored (21 vs 42). That has to be some kind of record!

Yes, our offense has sucked this year. No disagreement from me on that point.

 

[PlayStrongPlayProud]

In McCall’s case I would argue that wins and QB development are the two best ways to judge the job he is doing given the constraints Fitz has imposed. Maybe also time of possession and turnovers would be other stats to measure efficiency and execution.

Wins is how you would judge Fitz, not McCall.

Ignoring Thorson's freshman year (which was bad), his interception total increased every year thereafter. His TD totals were stagnant (declining from his peak sophomore year), his yards passed were stagnant, his completion percentage ticked up slightly, his QB rating was stagnant. Is McCall really a QB whisperer? Did Clayton get drafted? Yes, because he is 6ft 4 with a strong arm.

 

[corbi296]

Wins is how you would judge Fitz, not McCall.

Ignoring Thorson's freshman year (which was bad), his interception total increased every year thereafter. His TD totals were stagnant (declining from his peak sophomore year), his yards passed were stagnant, his completion percentage ticked up slightly, his QB rating was stagnant. Is McCall really a QB whisperer? Did Clayton get drafted? Yes, because he is 6ft 4 with a strong arm.

The one thing that no one can objectively deny McCall is his ability to develop QBs. Dating back to his days at Bowling Green he has taken unheralded recruits and made them into NFL draft picks. That’s fact.

 

[NUCat320]

I guess the Wiskey game is what people call a moral victory. The thing that bothers me is that we should have won that game. And the Stanford game. And the Neb game. The only game I concede is the MSU loss, where we were just sh*tty and that happens, I accept that. But it rankles me that the Offense lost those other games that the Defense nearly won for us. That's what needs to change.

No patience!

 

[DaCat]

Which is a better win...the one where you win 9-7 or the one where you win 72-70?

The winning score is not the issue, it is the effectiveness of the offense to be able to put up points so that we have a chance of winning. As we have seen in recent years, Fitz has done a remarkable job winning the close games. But the offense is built in such a way that the margin of error is very narrow. Witness the Rutgers and Neb games from last year. Those are two bad teams we should've beaten comfortably with a decent offense. And look at the stumbles against Akron and ISU. I don't care if we win a game 9-7. But case in point, we were in the game against Stanford this year down only 10-7 late in the fourth quarter, and ended up losing 17-7 by going backwards and giving up a strip-sack TD. A decent offense would've helped keep the defense off the field and put up more points against a below-average Stanford team.

 

[Titanium999]

Pat Forde just skewers the reluctance of three coaches to embrace change.....ouch!:

Fatigue with the status quo. Three schools are led by the winningest coaches in program history, all of whom are mired in an offensive malaise that is dragging down their teams. Kirk Ferentz at Iowa, Mark Dantonio at Michigan State and Pat Fitzgerald at Northwestern are a combined 3-7 in league play, while presiding over the Nos. 94, 98 and 128 scoring offenses in the nation, respectively.In the big picture, all three head coaches have earned the benefit of the doubt — but the doubts are gaining strength here in 2019. They are proud, loyal and stubborn, aligning themselves with longtime assistants and basically daring anyone to call them on it. Fitzgerald has had the same offensive coordinator, Mick McCall, for 12 years now. Last year, with a four-year starting quarterback, the Wildcats were 124th nationally in yards per play. This year, they’re 130th and dead last, and their lone victory is over UNLV. They have not ranked higher than 84th in yards per play since 2011. The Fitz formula has worked well for a long time — but why not try to energize the offense and aim even higher? Why not try to reach the level where Notre Dame currently operates, and where Stanford did for several seasons earlier this decade?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/the-big-ten-is-really-good-and-really-bad-what-gives-033948705.html

We almost won the big ten last year!

 

[NUCat320]

I happen to agree with their approach and believe what we are seeing is about as good as it’s going to get right now given the deficiencies and inexperience on the OL and QB. I understand others see it differently and my point to them is their anger and frustration at McCall as the source of the problem is misplaced. They should be blaming Fitz, because everything we see right now with this offense is directly attributable to Fitz’s philosophy and decision making. McCall is following Fitz’s lead.

I wonder where Wisconsin, a flash-free ball control offense for as long as there’s been football, ranks in yards per play on average. I wonder if NU has been higher.

Wisconsin is the model that Fitz wants to follow. They’re always better at offense.

2018: 6.4 to 4.7
2017: 6.1 to 5.3
2016: 5.5 to 5.3
2015: 5.3 to 4.5
2014: 6.8 to 4.5
2013: 6.9 to 5.4
2012: 5.9 to 5.3
2011: 7.0 to 5.6

(NU last outgained Wisconsin on a per play basis in 2006.)

It’s weird that Wisconsin — with a ball control offense and universally terrible quarterback play — is always better at moving the ball. The philosophies are the same — grind em down, play mistake free, score one more than the other guy.

I don’t think ‘philosophy’ is why NU’s offense has been awful since forever.

(For what it’s worth, yards per play is a fascinating metric. In 2006, Illinois led with 5.2. Last year, that would have been 12th in the conference.)

source:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfbconferences/big-ten/2018-team-offense.html

 

[curdog]

Which is a better win...the one where you win 9-7 or the one where you win 72-70?

Gif bro is back. So if we win every game 2-0, no need to make any changes? Got it.

 

[corbi296]

I wonder where Wisconsin, a flash-free ball control offense for as long as there’s been football, ranks in yards per play on average. I wonder if NU has been higher.

Wisconsin is the model that Fitz wants to follow. They’re always better at offense.

2018: 6.4 to 4.7
2017: 6.1 to 5.3
2016: 5.5 to 5.3
2015: 5.3 to 4.5
2014: 6.8 to 4.5
2013: 6.9 to 5.4
2012: 5.9 to 5.3
2011: 7.0 to 5.6

(NU last outgained Wisconsin on a per play basis in 2006.)

It’s weird that Wisconsin — with a ball control offense and universally terrible quarterback play — is always better at moving the ball. The philosophies are the same — grind em down, play mistake free, score one more than the other guy.

I don’t think ‘philosophy’ is why NU’s offense has been awful since forever.

(For what it’s worth, yards per play is a fascinating metric. In 2006, Illinois led with 5.2. Last year, that would have been 12th in the conference.)

source:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfbconferences/big-ten/2018-team-offense.html

Was that a long winded way of saying that Wisconsin is a better football program than NU? If so don’t bother because that’s obvious. They are the model but we are not yet close to matching their consistency and upside. The main difference between their program and ours is their dominance on the OL.

 

[NUCat320]

Was that a long winded way of saying that Wisconsin is a better football program than NU? If so don’t bother because that’s obvious. They are the model but we are not yet close to matching their consistency and upside. The main difference between their program and ours is their dominance on the OL.

They have an offense. That’s why they’re better.
And they do it in a bruising , punishing way, with a focus on ball control.

It’s not the philosophy that holds NU back, which is what you’re arguing. It’s the inability to effectively scheme and coach offense that holds NU back.

NU is supposed to be close with Wisconsin. They’re a consistent top 10-20 program. I kind of thought NU was close to that. 20-30 anyway, a notch below but competitive. Are you saying Wisconsin is leagues ahead on NU, not a peer, and we shouldn’t bother comparing NU to Wisconsin?

 

[DaCat]

Yes, our offense has sucked this year. No disagreement from me on that point.

On the pre-game show just now, Urban Meyer and Glen Mason were brutally honest about the NU offense, basically saying how terrible it is. Meyer said he couldn't understand how bad it is this year compared to last year. Didn't give us a chance.

 

[NJCat]

On the pre-game show just now, Urban Meyer and Glen Mason were brutally honest about the NU offense, basically saying how terrible it is. Meyer said he couldn't understand how bad it is this year compared to last year. Didn't give us a chance.

Yeah, I watched that. Credit to Urban for being honest. Didn't sugar coat the game to try to pump viewership.

 

[corbi296]

They have an offense. That’s why they’re better.
And they do it in a bruising , punishing way, with a focus on ball control.

It’s not the philosophy that holds NU back, which is what you’re arguing. It’s the inability to effectively scheme and coach offense that holds NU back.

NU is supposed to be close with Wisconsin. They’re a consistent top 10-20 program. I kind of thought NU was close to that. 20-30 anyway, a notch below but competitive. Are you saying Wisconsin is leagues ahead on NU, not a peer, and we shouldn’t bother comparing NU to Wisconsin?

Yes, they have an offense that is successful because their OL is consistently among the best in the country. Our OL has consistently been amongst the worst in the country. That needs to change for NU’s offense to perform materially better.

 

[corbi296]

On the pre-game show just now, Urban Meyer and Glen Mason were brutally honest about the NU offense, basically saying how terrible it is. Meyer said he couldn't understand how bad it is this year compared to last year. Didn't give us a chance.

What’s your point? You get no argument from me that our offense stinks right now.

 

[curdog]

What’s your point? You get no argument from me that our offense stinks right now.

Man you are determined to die on this hill

 

[IGNORE]

Corbi, you didn't respond to my previous post. How do you define success for McCall? How can you tell whether he is a good OC or a bad OC? What metrics should he be judged on? How do you tell if he is improving, getting worse or has flatlined?

Others are pointing to points per game, yards per game, etc. What metrics do you look at?

He’s avoiding you because you ask the right question. You have provided nothing for him to attack or a way for him to dodge. So you get ignored. Consider it an honor.

 

[corbi296]

Man you are determined to die on this hill

Die on what hill? McCall isn’t THE Problem with this offense. Fix the obvious problems first and then let’s see what the offense looks like. It won’t be what you think.

 

[curdog]

Die on what hill? McCall isn’t THE Problem with this offense. Fix the obvious problems first and then let’s see what the offense looks like. It won’t be what you think.

Like I said. You are determined to die on this hill

 

[corbi296]

Like I said. You are determined to die on this hill

Ok buddy, whatever you say. Go Bernie!