ISU got left out in large part because they didn't play enough quality teams. Their coach called out the major conference schools on Twitter, saying no one would agree to come to ISU. Would we play in Normal in a 2 home for 1 away deal? The one in Normal, of course, would be played on Doug Collins Court, and if they project to be a top-50 RPI team next year, that's a chance at a quality win that most people who know basketball would respect. And maybe Doug can call the game for ESPN.
Illinois State
- Thread starter JournCat
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Not a bad idea really. It's a tough game but would be viewed as a good team. They haven't achieved the consistency of Wich St but they are respected.
Maybe ISU should just abandon the home-and-home concept and play power conference teams away. If they become consistent winners, over time they will be able to demand return games at home.
I remember a similar discussion about NU a few years back--we would be a tough team to play and wouldn't be considered a quality win, so we couldn't get many quality non conference opponents. We were helped by being in a power conference, but we also had to play the teams in the power conference, which isn't an easy road game in and game out.
It's tough for the mid-majors, and I was especially pulling for ISU as many members of my extended family are alum, but I think the casual tournament fan would rather see a "name" program over an unknown one given that there are more "deserving" teams than tournament slots.
I remember a similar discussion about NU a few years back--we would be a tough team to play and wouldn't be considered a quality win, so we couldn't get many quality non conference opponents. We were helped by being in a power conference, but we also had to play the teams in the power conference, which isn't an easy road game in and game out.
It's tough for the mid-majors, and I was especially pulling for ISU as many members of my extended family are alum, but I think the casual tournament fan would rather see a "name" program over an unknown one given that there are more "deserving" teams than tournament slots.
If they become consistent winners while playing power conference teams on their own floor no one will schedule them...such is life as a mid-major. None of the big boys like to play them. They play the low majors (buy games) or they play other Power conference teams no in betweens. When was the last time a Missouri Valley school hosted a power 6 team not in a in season tournament?
This is why I suggested in the other thread offering to play St. Mary's in the week after the BTT. Although they made it this season, they've been screwed over in the recent past by the NCAA committee with excellent records, and now Illinois State provides another example. These schools would kill for another chance at a quality win on a neutral court. If not St. Mary's, perhaps Illinois State would be receptive to a neutral-court matchup with Northwestern in the United Center on selection weekend 2018. It would be a win-win, I think.
Are we sure Wichita is that good? After hearing all the complaining after their seeding I looked at their schedule. The ran the table in conference with one loss to ISU. Non conference they got hammered at home by Oklahoma State and lost to Michigan State and Louisville. They beat LSU and Oklahoma and I guess Colorado State but none of those 3 made the NCAA. If they would have lost the conference tournament I'm not so sure they get an at-large nor should they. Maybe gonzaga is the exception, but these mid-majors either have to win their conference tournament or basically go undefeated like st. Joe did years ago. This shouldn't be a surprise to them.
Well with the BTT being two weeks early next year we may be on the market for a quality non-conference opponent in late February or early March. Why not ISU?
I think Northwestern and Butler actually had 2 Home and homes. One in 12-13 and one in like 07 or thereabout. It's a "rivalry" I'd love to see continue.
It was done when they were a mid major This years game,they were a major conference opponent .
I feel for the mid-major schools. I was at Ball State in 1990 when the Cardinals beat Oregon State (Gary Peyton) and Louisville (Felton Spencer) before losing a two point game to eventual national champion UNLV. Nobody wanted to play Ball State after that run. I think it's crazy to expect mid-majors to play a ton of road games and never getting a game in return. Purdue played at Ball State in '89 and the Cardinals drilled them. Gene Keady said he'd never bring a team back to Ball State and nearly 30 years later that's still true.
When Butler started having success in the Horizon League they faced the same problem.
I'd much rather see Power 5 schools play in-state mid-major schools rather than the Mississippi Valley States of the world. Northwestern bringing in Illinois State or Loyola would be more interesting than Eastern Washington.
Tom Crean plays a bunch of joke schools but doesn't play Ball State, Valpo, Indiana State, etc. It's stupid.
When Butler started having success in the Horizon League they faced the same problem.
I'd much rather see Power 5 schools play in-state mid-major schools rather than the Mississippi Valley States of the world. Northwestern bringing in Illinois State or Loyola would be more interesting than Eastern Washington.
Tom Crean plays a bunch of joke schools but doesn't play Ball State, Valpo, Indiana State, etc. It's stupid.
To be fair, he played (and lost!) at IPFW earlier this year, and I know they've played some other smaller Indiana schools in recent years. But that doesn't reflect the bulk of their schedule, as you say.
(technically not "at" IPFW, it was at the Fort Wayne Coliseum, not IPFW's gym)
Illinois rarely plays any other in-state schools(UIC sort of a sister school being the exception). MVC was bad this year and that killed ISu's chances but maybe a possible shot at UofI in the NIT will motivate the Redbirds.
Yeah it's quite tricky. It's like once those teams become decent and / or if they don't want to take the bought road games, no one will schedule them. The P5 schools view it (understandably) as an asymmetric bet - if you win you were supposed to, if you lose it's a disaster and you are headlined on ESPN for getting upset (recall MSU, Indy, IL, and so many other schools in other conferences this winter). It takes until a team sustains excellence over a number of years and has enough respect to be viewed as a peer of sorts (Butler and Gonzaga have achieved this, Wichita St is getting there), before they are able to then be scheduled on even footing.
If I were in those teams' shoes I would probably just opt to go and play the road games in order to try to get wins. It's not ideal, and it makes the odds stacked against you, but at least you give yourself a chance - and if you win the games then you're rewarded.
But even then it's tough - so much of your season gets based on just a few good games out of conference, before your team has figured itself out. And then the rest of the year is almost like falling action, just trying to avoid missteps against subpar teams. Someone above ran through the games that Wichita St was able to play - they basically split these 3-3 against respectable teams, but didn't beat the great teams, which means they dropped to a 10 seed. If they had won just 2-3 more games their record looks like 5-1 against decent OOC opponents (plus 2-1 vs ISU) and then the polls rank them top 10 in discussion for a 3 or 4 seed.
Meanwhile Gonzaga basically ran the table on their P5 opponents (beat AZ, Wash, SD St, Florida, Iowa, Tenn). Now that's likely because they are a very very good team. But think if they had dropped just 2 of them (AZ and Fla?) and finished 30-3, all of a sudden they didn't beat any top teams, beat up on a couple middling P5 teams that didn't make the tourney (Wash, Iowa, Tenn), and their resume looks a lot like Wichita St's... and maybe they are a 7 seed or so. So like 2 wins is the difference between a 1 and a 7? It seems a bit absurd, especially when you consider the margin of error when two pretty good teams play each other -- think back to our losses against Butler, ND, MN, IL the first time around... or our wins over Dayton, Mich, MD, Rutgers etc... you can expand that to the great run we had early in conference season when we played like a 4-5 seed, or conversely the period with Scottie out and recovering where we didn't play like we deserved to be in the tourney at all.
For a mid major if 1 or 2 bad games or an injury or an illness happen at the wrong time, it could ruin your whole season and shift you from a top 10 team to a team that has to win their conference to get in. Gonzaga and Butler, and perhaps now Wichita St in the future, have managed to possibly get out of this cycle, but almost no one else has.
Wichita is very young with a lot of new pieces that had to come together( when they were playing their toughest competition).By the end of the year they were playing 10 deep..and they are extremely well coached. Being an LU fan I can tell you the Valley plays some intense,physical basketball but do not for the most part have the same physical talent as the B10.The two exceptions were Wichita State and Illinois State But almost always outplay their seed in the Tournament. . LU has had real difficulty trying to get decent teams in(part of the issue is attendance)and have got their only decent competition through tournaments and Conference vs Conference . Wins vs Creighton last year and San Diego State this year were the result of an ESPN bracket buster deal and this year a Mountain West vs the Valley deal.
Lot of teams recruit the Chicago area and do not want to take the chance of losing in front of a recruit.
Sadly I think the only way to get out of that cycle is to get the nod to move up to a better conference. Butler is now a high-major team, despite being in the Horizon League when they made their Final Four runs, so they'll never have to worry about scheduling. Creighton is now a high-major as well.
Someday, Gonzaga will come back to the pack in the WCC and at that point the committee will happily throw them out of the tournament. They've defied the odds more than any other mid-major in history in being this good for this long in that conference.
Did I miss something. Is the Big Ten Tourney going to be 2 weeks earlier next year. If so, why. This doesn't sound right.
Allen County War Memorial Coliseum it was called. I think it sat about or nearly 10,000.
I believe it is only one week earlier. BTT to be held at MSG which is committed to Big East tourney for the normal week.
I believe ole miss has responded and is looking to schedule something.
Side note - Illinois would be wise to contact muller IMO. Much more realistic than the other names I am hearing
I missed this thread entirely. I started a new thread about this KenPom article today on Slate. It's good.
http://www.slate.com/articles/sport...tack_the_deck_against_small_schools_like.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/sport...tack_the_deck_against_small_schools_like.html
Which brings up the question, Why would the BIG agree to it?" Makes us look like a second rate conference playing a week early like all the one bid conferences.
Sure but they will never do that again. IU played that game to have the team play in another part of the state in what assumed would be a blow out win, back fired. Thats why these schools do not want to play games like this. Look at Duke...only non conference games they play on the road are A) a game they have to like the ACC/Big East challenge or B) play someone at a neutral site like MSG etc. They will not go to anyone's gym under any other circumstance
1) Back to the original message, forget a 2-for-1 with ISU. Between the reduced travel costs and increased attendance, I think it would be worth it for NU to sign them to a 1-for-1.
2) Muller has been howling about this pretty loudly and I dont blame him. NU was/is generally in the same situation. It'seems why they needed to go the tournament route.
OTOH, in a good interview with Kaplan yesterday, Muller says he doesn't have an answer and admits he'd schedule the same as the P5 if he was a P5 coach. He says it needs to be addressed by the tourney committee. That kills his argument.
The only solution I have is wondering if it's time for the NCAA to step in and loosely regulate scheduling.
Let's pretend for a moment the NCAA is competent. Could a requirement work that teams from the top 5 RPI/KenPom conferences be required to schedule one lousy game with a team from the next five conferences every year?
I don't know how that wouldn't be better for the game. Better for the mid-majors. Better games in Nov and Dec. Spreads the wealth a bit.
The only problem would be the lower conferences who make money off these games. That's fine. Kick some money down to them for lost revenue and build a fund for them based on fines from teams that don't meet scheduling requirement.
2) Muller has been howling about this pretty loudly and I dont blame him. NU was/is generally in the same situation. It'seems why they needed to go the tournament route.
OTOH, in a good interview with Kaplan yesterday, Muller says he doesn't have an answer and admits he'd schedule the same as the P5 if he was a P5 coach. He says it needs to be addressed by the tourney committee. That kills his argument.
The only solution I have is wondering if it's time for the NCAA to step in and loosely regulate scheduling.
Let's pretend for a moment the NCAA is competent. Could a requirement work that teams from the top 5 RPI/KenPom conferences be required to schedule one lousy game with a team from the next five conferences every year?
I don't know how that wouldn't be better for the game. Better for the mid-majors. Better games in Nov and Dec. Spreads the wealth a bit.
The only problem would be the lower conferences who make money off these games. That's fine. Kick some money down to them for lost revenue and build a fund for them based on fines from teams that don't meet scheduling requirement.
What happened to that bracket busters thing they did a few years back where they had like 10 games in February for teams like this? I take it they didn't make enough money or too many people complained about their ruined conference seasons?
St. Mary's and Illinois State had problems getting enough respect this year - why not play each other? I'd watch Wichita State vs. UNC-Wilmington (or whatever).
St. Mary's and Illinois State had problems getting enough respect this year - why not play each other? I'd watch Wichita State vs. UNC-Wilmington (or whatever).
That is how LU got their game with Creighton but it took like 3 years to get Creighton to return the game.If I remember correctly Creighton did everything they could to not return the game....and rightfully so, LU won. But you are correct it was a good way to get some of the mid majors to play.
It was discontinued after the 2012-13 season. The event had grown to an unmanageable size - in the final year it "featured" 122 schools - and even at that size there still weren't enough compelling games to fill out the TV schedule.
Logistical nightmare to assign teams that nobody had heard of midseason.
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I once went to a random BracketBusters game between UIC and SIU at the Pavilion. Both teams were bad, there was nobody there, and the game wasn't televised. To this day I'm not sure what the point was.
When Creighton was in the MVC, Nebraska played there every other year. (Granted, this is different since it's an in-state rivalry, but nevertheless, it's the exception that proves the rule!)
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