Is it smart to play BMac / Vic for 40 mins again?

[ricko654321]

Against Maryland? Obviously we know they are our two best players right now at positions where depth is hurt w o Scottie. But knowing they came off a full performance against Wisconsin a couple days ago, how do you assess the risk reward tradeoff here? I know I know they are college kids they can recover etc etc, but I think it's been visually noticeable with both in the past that when they get overworked their legs suffer and quality of play declines.

Personally I would try to get BMac 2-3 mins off sometime in the first half. And if you can find another minute in the 2H to sandwich around a TV timeout that would be perfect. I would get Vic a couple more minutes, cause I think the way he plays such intense defense his game tends to deteriorate more quickly when his legs are gone. He was able to sustain without rest against Wisconsin better IMO cause Sanjay and Dererk had the toughest D matchups (on Hayes and Happ). I think he'll guard Trimble, so that won't be the case here. When Melo is on the bench for Maryland, I would try to opportunistically sub Vic out to get him some rest, ideally 4-5 mins over the course of the game.

Now obviously the game flow dictates some of this too, depending on how guys are looking and what the score is you could adjust strategy. Also coach will know his guys better, and have a better idea how much longer Scottie is going to be out - if it's just this one game maybe you are willing to red line Mac and Vic a bit more... It does help that we have Rutgers for the next one, though while not particularly talented they are still a very high energy team that attacks the boards and could wear out an NU squad that doesn't have our legs back after two grueling ranked opponents.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Probably not, but I don't know what other choice Collins has with Lindsey out of the lineup.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

Probably not, but I don't know what other choice Collins has with Lindsey out of the lineup.

Brown can back up B-Mac and give him a rest.

 

[thewildcat2011]

Brown can back up B-Mac and give him a rest.

In theory. In practice, the results have been somewhat mixed if we're being kind.

 

[ricko654321]

Brown can back up B-Mac and give him a rest.

Yeah- I mean fair response, but I did pose the question with full knowledge of the risks of taking them out, acknowledging it's a pretty sharp falloff. But to spell it out in more detail...

For sitting BMac 2-3 mins in 1H and another 1 min in 2H you'd have to play Brown at Pg, then Vic and Sanjay along with 2/3 of Tap Skelly Pardon.

For sitting Vic 4-5 mins over the course of the game it's prob gotta be BMac, Brown, Sanjay, then 2/3 of the same bigs.

Each one of those combos might reduce your expected pts per possession by some fraction (more on offense when we pull BMac, more on D when we pull Vic). We can try to minimize that impact by having other quality players on the floor when they are off (i.e. using sensible rotations like every coach does) and by picking and choosing your times - for Vic when Melo sits, and for BMac maybe right after an offensive possession or at a time when you want to run a couple sets inside for Dererk.

Regardless though it still prob costs you a couple points in pt margin EV while they're off, with random variance that may end up higher or lower (maybe even net + if we are lucky!). The question posed is it worth that risk to get them some blow so that they can be a bit fresher at the end of the game. I'm saying yes, especially after the tough Wisconsin game, but there could be good arguments on both sides. Seeing improved discipline from Brown on the offensive side of the court gave me a bit more comfort in terms of turning the O over to him for a couple short stretches.

 

[Medill90]

If the Cats are up double digits and its within a couple minutes of a TV time out, by all means, give them a blow.

I would just add that the great DePaul teams were only about six or seven players deep. Three players would frequently go 40 minutes. And they didn't lose because they were tired.

 

[hdhntr1]

If the Cats are up double digits and its within a couple minutes of a TV time out, by all means, give them a blow.

I would just add that the great DePaul teams were only about six or seven players deep. Three players would frequently go 40 minutes. And they didn't lose because they were tired.

I think it was a bit different of a game then. More aggressive and intense. Shot clock, etc. But timeouts tv etc give more rest than back then so who knows.

 

[ricko654321]

I think it was a bit different of a game then. More aggressive and intense. Shot clock, etc. But timeouts tv etc give more rest than back then so who knows.

Yeah fair point. And I will also point out that it's been visibly noticeable (to my flawed eyes anyways) that both these guys have worn down at the end of games (or later in seasons too) in the past. I think modern players also train and practice much harder than guys in past decades, so potentially CC takes it easier on them between games to adjust for this too.

But pointing to teams from decades ago or saying "well they shouldn't get tired" seems to me to be denying the reality of the fact that we've seen both Mac's and Vic's legs go at the end of games in the past. In that sense it turns into a game of tradeoffs - play them full go through the game and hope their legs last vs. get them rest and hope we don't get crushed when they are out vs. tell them to play but manage energy usage through the game and not go 100% when they don't need to. Collins sometimes also seems to save his timeouts and try to space them across the 2nd half to provide rest more so than to stop runs or call plays. It's always easier to do all of this if you are in the lead, of course....

 

[hdhntr1]

Against Maryland? Obviously we know they are our two best players right now at positions where depth is hurt w o Scottie. But knowing they came off a full performance against Wisconsin a couple days ago, how do you assess the risk reward tradeoff here? I know I know they are college kids they can recover etc etc, but I think it's been visually noticeable with both in the past that when they get overworked their legs suffer and quality of play declines.

Personally I would try to get BMac 2-3 mins off sometime in the first half. And if you can find another minute in the 2H to sandwich around a TV timeout that would be perfect. I would get Vic a couple more minutes, cause I think the way he plays such intense defense his game tends to deteriorate more quickly when his legs are gone. He was able to sustain without rest against Wisconsin better IMO cause Sanjay and Dererk had the toughest D matchups (on Hayes and Happ). I think he'll guard Trimble, so that won't be the case here. When Melo is on the bench for Maryland, I would try to opportunistically sub Vic out to get him some rest, ideally 4-5 mins over the course of the game.

Now obviously the game flow dictates some of this too, depending on how guys are looking and what the score is you could adjust strategy. Also coach will know his guys better, and have a better idea how much longer Scottie is going to be out - if it's just this one game maybe you are willing to red line Mac and Vic a bit more... It does help that we have Rutgers for the next one, though while not particularly talented they are still a very high energy team that attacks the boards and could wear out an NU squad that doesn't have our legs back after two grueling ranked opponents.

Of course it is not smart but sometimes you just don't have a choice

 

[Medill90]

Of course it is not smart but sometimes you just don't have a choice

^ this is the point I was trying to make.

You sit BMac and who runs the offense....that hasn't worked out so well. A tired BMac is a better option.

 

[TheC]

if it's just this one game maybe you are willing to red line Mac and Vic a bit more... It does help that we have Rutgers for the next one, though while not particularly talented they are still a very high energy team that attacks the boards and could wear out an NU squad that doesn't have our legs back after two grueling ranked opponents.

The problem is that the next game IS Rutgers. That game is MUST-WIN, plus, though their record isn't the greatest, their guards play hard and really made BMac work last time. It would suck for him to get wiped out against Rutgers.

 

[ricko654321]

^ this is the point I was trying to make.

You sit BMac and who runs the offense....that hasn't worked out so well. A tired BMac is a better option.

Haha okay yes I will buy this argument, but the "you don't have a choice" argument is reductive logic that doesn't fit here. You always have a choice. And it's important to compare the consequences of those choices vs the consequences of playing him all the way thru anyways. And if you believe that a tired BMac is a better option, then that would be a "smart" play.

Now I don't necessarily agree, but it's an open debate and a good discussion I think. Also most of the objections thus far seem to be centered around BMac - I would rather run him longer in terms of minutes and get Vic some rest when Melo is out given a choice between the 2... BMac is usually given a defensive matchup (and less d rebound responsibilities) where he doesn't need to expend as much energy on that side of the floor as we'll need Vic to.

CC also sometimes does the thing where he puts Brown in and sees how it goes... letting BMac sit until the offense inevitably starts grinding to a halt or making mistakes, then rushing him back in when that happens (sometimes only 1-2 possessions after he came out). For a home game where you can control the flow a bit better that might be a good strategy.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

I don't think its really fair to say that when B-Mac is out the offense "inevitably starts grinding to a halt" B-Mac starts every game. There have been about a dozen games where we have gotten off to TERRIBLE starts, down 12-2 early etc. Moreover, we have had several games where the offense stalls for 6 or 7 minutes at a time, and our only points are from the line, and until recently the board was discussing if and when he was ever going to break out of his shooting slump.

My point in saying this is to note that B-Mac is a really good, but not great player. He's not so amazing that he has to play every single minute. I would love to see him get more of a break and I think it would help him and the team as we get deeper into the season.

 

[NUCat320]

It seems to me that Mc should get pulled - full stop - on the first whistle after 10 minutes, and that Vic get pulled the first whistle after 14 minutes, both in the first half. If that break turns to four-plus minutes, Brown or Tap should take a foul. Strict, time-based substitutions are common in the NBA.

It should definitely be on an assistant coach or manager's task list for the game (and, at least in Mc's case, for every game).

 

[ricko654321]

It seems to me that Mc should get pulled - full stop - on the first whistle after 10 minutes, and that Vic get pulled the first whistle after 14 minutes, both in the first half. If that break turns to four-plus minutes, Brown or Tap should take a foul. Strict, time-based substitutions are common in the NBA.

It should definitely be on an assistant coach or manager's task list for the game (and, at least in Mc's case, for every game).

Yep, something like that would be my approach. You have to be a bit more flexible here given potential foul trouble considerations with our current short bench, and I've said I would try to have Vic's sub pattern mirror Melo's, but I'm on board with the general idea.

And I agree with the person above who said that, while BMac is a very good player, we've had a number of tough stretches with him in at PG too. It's just that Chris is going to have less tolerance for bad stretches with Isaiah at PG cause he knows that he has a better and more experienced option on the bench.

 

[hdhntr1]

The problem is that the next game IS Rutgers. That game is MUST-WIN, plus, though their record isn't the greatest, their guards play hard and really made BMac work last time. It would suck for him to get wiped out against Rutgers.

At the same time, this week and short bench does prepare us for the tournaments. BTT back to back days and only one day rest in NCAA

 

[EagerFan]

Which BMac shows up - awesome hero from last two games or the other guy with the missed shots and tons of turn overs?
Which Brown shows up - dangerous shooter/distributor or reckless frosh driving into cover and throwing up bad shots early in the clock?
Those answers determine how much BMac plays.

Can Sanjay cover Melo at all or does he have his hands full elsewhere? I dunno much about MD's players.
If Sanjay can spell Law in defense, Law gets to rest and will be more likely to help drive the nails in at the end of the game. If Law has to cover Melo the entire game, I don't see a lot of offense out of him in the second half.

 

[ricko654321]

Which BMac shows up - awesome hero from last two games or the other guy with the missed shots and tons of turn overs?
Which Brown shows up - dangerous shooter/distributor or reckless frosh driving into cover and throwing up bad shots early in the clock?
Those answers determine how much BMac plays.

Can Sanjay cover Melo at all or does he have his hands full elsewhere? I dunno much about MD's players.
If Sanjay can spell Law in defense, Law gets to rest and will be more likely to help drive the nails in at the end of the game. If Law has to cover Melo the entire game, I don't see a lot of offense out of him in the second half.

I think collins will put Sanjay on Maryland's rotating cast of bigs. They have about 5 of them, but I would guess Sanjay will guard Justin Jackson (not the ball carrier), their version of a stretch 4. They also have Dodd inside, and Cekovsky a big dude who plays pretty stout D but not great O. And a couple others. Turgeon seems to rotate in a bunch of guys, I think maybe 10 total? So while I haven't looked at any stats I would guess that Melo plays <35 mpg and you can get Vic his rest just by mirroring when Melo goes to the bench. BMac and or Brown guard Cowan.

 

[EagerFan]

That makes sense. As I said I dunno MD, but I guess I'll find out in a couple of hours...

 

[CatManTrue]

That makes sense. As I said I dunno MD, but I guess I'll find out in a couple of hours...

Now seems like a good time to rest them for a few minutes, with the game largely out of reach.