Kopp to Indiana

[clarificationcat]

You like strawman arguments, don't you?
I conceded that there were at least 5 guys that Ryan Young wouldn't have displaced.
I conceded that there were a couple teams in the Big Ten that were better than us at every position.
And you follow up by claiming that I think Ryan Young would have made Baylor a better team.

"A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one."

I believe I refuted your argument

You like strawman arguments, don't you?
I conceded that there were at least 5 guys that Ryan Young wouldn't have displaced.
I conceded that there were a couple teams in the Big Ten that were better than us at every position.
And you follow up by claiming that I think Ryan Young would have made Baylor a better team.

"A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one."

OK. Thanks. I think I was too subtle for you. You're quote: "I do find your argument that "a lot of teams didn't play with a true center" to be odd. Its mainly because they didn't have one. Is that not fairly obvious?"

I think I successfully refuted that argument. Lots of teams don't have true centers and don't need or want them unless they are dominating players. Baylor being the most obvious one. I was illustrating that point through the most extreme example. Baylor was perfectly fine playing without a true center. Similarly, several of the teams in the conference that you view as not having a true center (especially the good ones) might not have wanted to start Ryan Young. Like I said, if they wanted a true center, they could have offered Matt Nicholson. You agree that Michigan, Indiana, Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa, Rutgers, and Purdue (7 teams) all had better big men. I believe your argument is that Young would have started at Ohio State, Wisconsin, Maryland and Michigan State. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that point.

And one final question for you. You didn't think that Buie should have started for us. I believe you said he should come off the bench because Greer was better at feeding the post. So if he couldn't start for us, you are comfortable having him start for about half of the teams in the conference?

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

I believe I refuted your argument

OK. Thanks. I think I was too subtle for you. You're quote: "I do find your argument that "a lot of teams didn't play with a true center" to be odd. Its mainly because they didn't have one. Is that not fairly obvious?"

I think I successfully refuted that argument. Lots of teams don't have true centers and don't need or want them unless they are dominating players. Baylor being the most obvious one. I was illustrating that point through the most extreme example. Baylor was perfectly fine playing without a true center. Similarly, several of the teams in the conference that you view as not having a true center (especially the good ones) might not have wanted to start Ryan Young. Like I said, if they wanted a true center, they could have offered Matt Nicholson. You agree that Michigan, Indiana, Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa, Rutgers, and Purdue (7 teams) all had better big men. I believe your argument is that Young would have started at Ohio State, Wisconsin, Maryland and Michigan State. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that point.

And one final question for you. You didn't think that Buie should have started for us. I believe you said he should come off the bench because Greer was better at feeding the post. So if he couldn't start for us, you are comfortable having him start for about half of the teams in the conference?

You can't refute an argument with your opinion.

Regarding Greer, at one time when Buie had been terrible for several games, I did state that Ryan Greer should be given a shot at running the offense, with Buie either benched or as one choice for "shooting guard," just to see if it helped.
This was mainly in the context of feeding Nance and Young in the post (playing at same time) because I thought Greer was a better passer than Audige (whom Collins was trying at point guard) and Buie (who was in a deep slump). Greer is more of a point guard (style-wise) than Buie or Audige.

Cappy pointed out that he viewed Greer was terrible defensively, based on his "+/-" numbers. At the time I hadn't produced those numbers myself, but when I did, I was surprised to find that to be true (in general). I also realized that Buie wasn't that bad defensively. Its not the kind of thing that just jumps out of the basic box score.

However, when Nance, Young and Greer played together (for 12 minutes total) we outscored our opponents 19-18. Nance/Young/Buie was 109-107 over 71 minutes of play. I would say the issue was not resolved either way. At this point it is moot.

One thing I learned from the detailed box scores was that Buie, Kopp and Audige all suffered statistically because Coach Collins kept putting them out there with Pete Nance and Robbie Beran at the same time.

As for Buie starting for half the teams, I originally wrote "Kopp would start for many, Buie would start for some" but then, when confronted by an ignoramus, I wrote "Buie would start for half and Kopp would start for some."

Compare that to "no one on our roster other than Pete Nance would have started for any other big Ten team."

 

[clarificationcat]

You can't refute an argument with your opinion.

Regarding Greer, at one time when Buie had been terrible for several games, I did state that Ryan Greer should be given a shot at running the offense, with Buie either benched or as one choice for "shooting guard," just to see if it helped.
This was mainly in the context of feeding Nance and Young in the post (playing at same time) because I thought Greer was a better passer than Audige (whom Collins was trying at point guard) and Buie (who was in a deep slump). Greer is more of a point guard (style-wise) than Buie or Audige.

Cappy pointed out that he viewed Greer was terrible defensively, based on his "+/-" numbers. At the time I hadn't produced those numbers myself, but when I did, I was surprised to find that to be true (in general). I also realized that Buie wasn't that bad defensively. Its not the kind of thing that just jumps out of the basic box score.

However, when Nance, Young and Greer played together (for 12 minutes total) we outscored our opponents 19-18. Nance/Young/Buie was 109-107 over 71 minutes of play. I would say the issue was not resolved either way. At this point it is moot.

One thing I learned from the detailed box scores was that Buie, Kopp and Audige all suffered statistically because Coach Collins kept putting them out there with Pete Nance and Robbie Beran at the same time.

As for Buie starting for half the teams, I originally wrote "Kopp would start for many, Buie would start for some" but then, when confronted by an ignoramus, I wrote "Buie would start for half and Kopp would start for some."

Compare that to "no one on our roster other than Pete Nance would have started for any other big Ten team."

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

You like strawman arguments, don't you?
I conceded that there were at least 5 guys that Ryan Young wouldn't have displaced.
I conceded that there were a couple teams in the Big Ten that were better than us at every position.
And you follow up by claiming that I think Ryan Young would have made Baylor a better team.

"A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one."

Pot meet kettle

 

[clarificationcat]

You can't refute an argument with your opinion.

Regarding Greer, at one time when Buie had been terrible for several games, I did state that Ryan Greer should be given a shot at running the offense, with Buie either benched or as one choice for "shooting guard," just to see if it helped.
This was mainly in the context of feeding Nance and Young in the post (playing at same time) because I thought Greer was a better passer than Audige (whom Collins was trying at point guard) and Buie (who was in a deep slump). Greer is more of a point guard (style-wise) than Buie or Audige.

Cappy pointed out that he viewed Greer was terrible defensively, based on his "+/-" numbers. At the time I hadn't produced those numbers myself, but when I did, I was surprised to find that to be true (in general). I also realized that Buie wasn't that bad defensively. Its not the kind of thing that just jumps out of the basic box score.

However, when Nance, Young and Greer played together (for 12 minutes total) we outscored our opponents 19-18. Nance/Young/Buie was 109-107 over 71 minutes of play. I would say the issue was not resolved either way. At this point it is moot.

One thing I learned from the detailed box scores was that Buie, Kopp and Audige all suffered statistically because Coach Collins kept putting them out there with Pete Nance and Robbie Beran at the same time.

As for Buie starting for half the teams, I originally wrote "Kopp would start for many, Buie would start for some" but then, when confronted by an ignoramus, I wrote "Buie would start for half and Kopp would start for some."

Compare that to "no one on our roster other than Pete Nance would have started for any other big Ten team."

OK. How many minutes did Nance and Young play together in total?

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

OK. How many minutes did Nance and Young play together in total?

in the last 13 games, I have them playing together for 8196 seconds = about 137 minutes.
I subtracted some garbage time from a few games, to try to be more fair.
I evaluated about 520 minutes of play in total.
Nance played about 382 minutes.
Young played about 278 minutes.
Of the 137 minutes when Nance and Young were both playing, they were teamed with Kopp and Audige for 110 minutes. They "won" 180-167. However when Buie was the 5th guy on the floor, we lost 79-78 in 49 minutes of play. When Greer was the 5th guy on the court, we "won" 11-8 in 4 minutes of action. Not much to go on.

 

[jindy]

If You don't think Fred Hoiberg would have loved to have Ryan Young in his starting lineup, you're a very dim bulb.
Nicholson would presumably have started for Nebraska too. Obviously Nance, Buie, Kopp or Audige all would have started for the Cornhuskers.

Iowa started Connor McCaffery. Buie and Kopp are better than him, but you could also make the case for Nance being a starter..
The only reason Young might not have started is that Garza liked to be down low and they might not work well together.

Nate Reuvers at Wisconsin is no better than either Nance or Young.
Brad Davison is no better than Boo Buie.

Nance and Young are both equal to or better than Race Thompson and would have started for Indiana.
Buie was better than Rob Phinisee for the same team.

Rutgers had several good players, but Nance, Kopp and Young would have started over Paul Mulcahy.

Minnesota had Marcus Carr and Liam Robbins. Anybody from Buie, Kopp, Young, Nance would have started for them, unless Young and Robbins were redundant.

Nance and Young both are better than John Harrar on Penn State. Kopp and Seth Lundy are about the same.

Purdue had 2 quality big guys, but Eric Hunter was no better than Buie.

Illinois and Michigan probably had better talent than us at all 5 positions.

Nance would have started for most teams in the league, Buie and Young about half. Kopp would have started for some.

It isn't NU's talent thats the biggest problem.

Eric Hunter is far, far better than Buie on the defensive end of the court which is why he gets the minutes that he does for Purdue.

 

[NJCat]

There's a good article about Mike Woodson in The Athletic today. One funny anecdote about Bob Knight:

While walking through the practice facility one day, Knight was approached by Miller Kopp, a 6-7 senior transfer from Northwestern. When Kopp extended his hand and introduced himself, the old coach cracked, “Son, I don’t give a damn what your name is. What I want to know is, can you guard?”

I hate to break it to coach Knight, but unless Miller said "No" he was lying.......

 

[NCPurplecat]

Indiana can pack a much larger arena and despite recent coaching woes has history on its side. Kopp will be a better 3rd or 4th option than first option and will help Indiana. Good players make their mates better. Miller did not do that and his rebounding stats were surprisingly bad. He has a nice looking shot and made many a tough shot but when he went cold it was chilly. He did have the first basket in the refreshed arena. At least one good memory.

 

[Max_Power]

Indiana can pack a much larger arena and despite recent coaching woes has history on its side. Kopp will be a better 3rd or 4th option than first option and will help Indiana. Good players make their mates better. Miller did not do that and his rebounding stats were surprisingly bad. He has a nice looking shot and made many a tough shot but when he went cold it was chilly. He did have the first basket in the refreshed arena. At least one good memory.

Should we tell them ... although I will say that Miller Kopp's career 3pt average at 36% was higher than I thought since all I recall is him missing 64% of his shots. What did surprise me in looking at the stats was how few threes he took.

This tweet from Vitale was a little bit below Vitale telling all ND fans how great JJ Starling will be.

 

[GatoLouco]

View embedded media

Should we tell them ... although I will say that Miller Kopp's career 3pt average at 36% was higher than I thought since all I recall is him missing 64% of his shots. What did surprise me in looking at the stats was how few threes he took.

This tweet from Vitale was a little bit below Vitale telling all ND fans how great JJ Starling will be.

🤮🤢🤮🤢🤮🤢🤮

Kopp will probably end up taking as many shots, but way less rushed than at NU. Not only because of TJD, but also (don't sleep on) Xavier Johnson. Which, in theory, should allow him to do the 40%+ from three.

He will be, despite defensive shortcomings, excellent for IU. Durham and Franklin were players IU probably wishes they stayed, but the Kopp/Johnson additions makes them way more threatening on offense.


🤮🤢🤮🤢🤮🤢🤮

 

[CappyNU]

View embedded media

Should we tell them ... although I will say that Miller Kopp's career 3pt average at 36% was higher than I thought since all I recall is him missing 64% of his shots. What did surprise me in looking at the stats was how few threes he took.

This tweet from Vitale was a little bit below Vitale telling all ND fans how great JJ Starling will be.

You raise a good point here - Kopp took way more shots in 2019-20 when he did shoot 40% from 3 than he did last year when he shot 29.5% from 3 in conference. Obviously the addition of Audige was part of it, as he jacked up a lot of shots, but presumably Kopp was the defense's first priority in 2020 as well as last year, yet he shot ~50% more 3's in 2020 than last year. Strange.

 

[Max_Power]

You raise a good point here - Kopp took way more shots in 2019-20 when he did shoot 40% from 3 than he did last year when he shot 29.5% from 3 in conference. Obviously the addition of Audige was part of it, as he jacked up a lot of shots, but presumably Kopp was the defense's first priority in 2020 as well as last year, yet he shot ~50% more 3's in 2020 than last year. Strange.

I hope Miller is happy at IU because he was not happy last year, for whatever reason. The drop in threes may have been caused by the change if offensive scheme. Also, as a spot up shooter, it has to be hard to play with Buie and Audgie who, lets face it, like to shoot the ball sometimes without regard to whether they have a good shot or not.

 

[EagerFan]

Kopp will look a lot better at IU. Moving from being the main threat to just another, lesser threat will give him fewer but much better looks, and being a defensive liability instead of being just another defensive liability will lessen his damage on that end.

 

[SDakaGordie]

I agree with these thoughts, which directly imply that our overall talent level is obviously lower. Some have suggested this is not so; not sure how you can have it both ways.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

You raise a good point here - Kopp took way more shots in 2019-20 when he did shoot 40% from 3 than he did last year when he shot 29.5% from 3 in conference. Obviously the addition of Audige was part of it, as he jacked up a lot of shots, but presumably Kopp was the defense's first priority in 2020 as well as last year, yet he shot ~50% more 3's in 2020 than last year. Strange.

Kopp was the Defenses top priority to stop from scoring. He was also the opposing teams top priority on O as teams continually exploited his defense.

 

[NJCat]

Kopp was the Defenses top priority to stop from scoring. He was also the opposing teams top priority on O as teams continually exploited his defense.

Miller rated #20 in the B1G in this blog......not exactly a glowing review of his defense though. Hard to see how this makes him the 20th best player:

Areas for Improvement​

While Kopp can shoot the rock, he’ll need to work on improving his defensive game and ability to clean up on the glass.

“He’s got to defend some. He’s going to be held accountable because I’ve always told players throughout the course of a ballgame, you’re going to guard someone differently than the guy you started with,” Woodson added.

If Kopp can’t improve defensively it’ll likely limit his playing time this season. He’ll also need to return to form, after a disappointing junior season at Northwestern. Kopp has showcased the ability to shoot the ball, but if he comes out shooting 33% from beyond the arc again this winter he very well could fall out of the rotation.

‘BTPowerhouse 25’ - Tie - No. 20 Miller Kopp

BTPowerhouse’s staff counts down the best players in the Big Ten heading into the 2021-’22 season.

www.btpowerhouse.com

 

[hdhntr1]

You can't refute an argument with your opinion.

Regarding Greer, at one time when Buie had been terrible for several games, I did state that Ryan Greer should be given a shot at running the offense, with Buie either benched or as one choice for "shooting guard," just to see if it helped.
This was mainly in the context of feeding Nance and Young in the post (playing at same time) because I thought Greer was a better passer than Audige (whom Collins was trying at point guard) and Buie (who was in a deep slump). Greer is more of a point guard (style-wise) than Buie or Audige.

Cappy pointed out that he viewed Greer was terrible defensively, based on his "+/-" numbers. At the time I hadn't produced those numbers myself, but when I did, I was surprised to find that to be true (in general). I also realized that Buie wasn't that bad defensively. Its not the kind of thing that just jumps out of the basic box score.

However, when Nance, Young and Greer played together (for 12 minutes total) we outscored our opponents 19-18. Nance/Young/Buie was 109-107 over 71 minutes of play. I would say the issue was not resolved either way. At this point it is moot.

One thing I learned from the detailed box scores was that Buie, Kopp and Audige all suffered statistically because Coach Collins kept putting them out there with Pete Nance and Robbie Beran at the same time.

As for Buie starting for half the teams, I originally wrote "Kopp would start for many, Buie would start for some" but then, when confronted by an ignoramus, I wrote "Buie would start for half and Kopp would start for some."

Compare that to "no one on our roster other than Pete Nance would have started for any other big Ten team."

You do constantly. Fact is that he wasn't ready to play and is more of a project. Yes he has something that cannot be taught in height but he had a growth spurt that got him there and BIGs such as that have a habit of taking a while to grow into their bodies. Look at WIS over the years. They have often RS their bigs because there are not ready. Then they put them in the weight room and worked with them and when they were ready to see the floor, they were formidable.

The coaches saw him every day in practice and I dare say they have a much better idea of where he is at in development than you do with your opinion

 

[cometclear]

Kopp will do well playing with a better talent and better coaching. This is all sour grapes from folks who spent a lot of time touting him his first couple years because he was one of their guys at that time.