TJ-D will return to IU. I thought the Hoosiers might be a destination for Pete, linking up with best bud Killer, but now it seems unlikely. And if TJ-D didn't project in the NBA, despite being a solid B1G player, how in the world would PBJ get drafted????
OT: Jackson-Davis Returns to IU
- Thread starter NJCat
- Start date
From five feet out he is worthless on O. Great dunker! But extremely limited and not any threat at all beyond 5'.
Coaches at all level of competition (HS, AAU, and college) did him a great disservice but not developing an all around offensive skill. Started in 4th grade 5'from the basket and no one ever taught him to shoot a jumper, a 3, nor a free throw. Not uncommon in AAU in particular.
Wish we had guys that weren’t that good like him. Sixth in Points, Sixth in rebounds and second in blocks in the conference. Don’t know his adjusted +/-, but betting it was decent. I do know he actually can play defense, something that is foreign to our big men.
Well, he was the best player on Indiana's roster. The Hoosiers weren't good.
Not saying Jackson-Davis was a bad player. He was good, but not great.
I like to look at stats per 40 minutes, not just stats per game... here's some of the Big Ten big guys...
| Player | Min/Gm | Pts/40 | Rebs/40 | Blks/40 | 3 pt att / 40 | 3 pt % |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Edey | 20.1 | 28.1 | 15.2 | 2.3 | 0 | 0 |
| Ke Murray | 33.4 | 27.3 | 10.2 | 2.6 | 5.6 | 42.0 |
| Cockburn | 29.7 | 26.9 | 14.1 | 1.1 | 0 | 0 |
| T. Williams | 19.5 | 22.7 | 14.2 | 0.9 | 0.8 | 50.0 |
| Dickinson | 33.1 | 24.6 | 10.1 | 1.9 | 3.0 | 29.5 |
| Liddell | 35.0 | 22.1 | 9.2 | 2.7 | 4.6 | 37.1 |
| Jackson-Davis | 31.8 | 19.7 | 9.8 | 2.5 | 0.1 | 0 |
| Bingham | 16.3 | 18.9 | 12.0 | 4.0 | 3.3 | 48.1 |
| Nance | 28.5 | 19.7 | 8.4 | 1.0 | 4.8 | 46.2 |
| R. Young | 17.1 | 17.9 | 10.6 | 0.5 | 0.7 | 16.7 |
| Harrar | 26.8 | 15.6 | 15.2 | 0.2 | 0 | 0 |
| Omoruyi | 29.2 | 15.1 | 10.7 | 2.3 | 0.2 | 33.3 |
| Crowl | 26.0 | 13.3 | 6.2 | 0.2 | 3.5 | 32.6 |
I put the 3 point stats in there as a proxy for "outside shooting."
I don't think Jackson-Davis really stands out.
He's better than a few guys on the list.
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There's a pretty big difference between saying "That guy should be playing 10 minutes a game" and "That guy is an NBA draft pick."
Jackson-Davis was/is a little better than Ryan Young.
Take the word “little” out of the second paragraph and I agree with everything you said.
How about Jackson-Davis was/is at least a little better than Ryan Young but not a lot better.
No, he is a light year better. Points, blocks, and rebounds are phenominally superior. He just doesn't have many NBA offensive skills.
No, IMO they are not comparable.
Points
TJD 18.1 (6th in Big)
RY 9.0 (52)
Rebounds
TJD 8.3 (6)
RY 4.2 (42)
FG%
TJD 58.9 (6)
RY 55.9 (9)
Blocks
TJD 2.39 (2)
RY 0.32 (49)
For the non traditional big man stats, if I included them TJD, wins out in Assists, Steals, and RY shoots a slightly better FT %. Neither can throw it in the ocean from 3.
TJD second team all big ten. The biggest difference is defense TJD is first team all conference.
No he isn’t an NBA player, but it is a VERY good college player. IMO, I would not classify him as a little better than RY. A light year is a good description.
RY was a good player here, but let’s not get carried away with his impact at the conference level,
Comparing per game stats when one guy played twice as much as the other is pretty unfair, wouldn't you say?
I'll answer that for you - yes, its not fair at all. Here are the pro-rated stats against Big Ten opponents.
They are all posted up above and worth reading to get a better evaluation.
| Mins | Pts/40 | Rebs/40 | Blks/40 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jackson-Davis | 31.8 | 19.7 | 9.8 | 2.5 |
| R. Young | 17.1 | 17.9 | 10.6 | 0.5 |
They are quite comparable in both scoring and rebounding.
Sure, Jackson-Davis is a better athlete, but these two are in no way "light years apart."
Defensively, its always harder to know, but its safe to assume Jackson-Davis was somewhat better.
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Lord have mercy! If you can’t see TJD is a significantly better defender, I don’t know how you would expect anyone to take you seriously on any topic?
Whether, you want to acknowledge it or not, there is a REASON TJD played 14 minutes a game more and it’s not that CCC is a complete moron. Do we pro rate, batting average or earned run average in MLB? How about TD passes or yards per carry for back ups on the NFL. There is a reason for that too. Performance isn’t a linear straight line.
I have no idea why I even got sucked into a debate comparing TJD to RY. Anyone with two eyes can see completely different animal. I hate doing this because RY was a great soldier for NU and by all accounts a good guy, but this argument smacks of just another reason to continue my tirade against CCC.
Actually, ERA is indeed pro rated, runs per 9 innings............you give up 1 run in 3 innings and your ERA is 3.
I've always thought Jackson-Davis was a little lazy, with a tendency to pout.
Ryan Young was a gamer compared to Jackson-Davis.
So, to me, Jackson-Davis wins defensively on his superior athleticism, but Young wins on effort.
Its nothing to get upset about, unless we're back to trying to eliminate all discussion.
I love Ryan Young, but I don't think Young and Jackson-Davis are even really comparable other than they both played center in the B1G. Jackson-Davis' athleticism, offensive skills, defensive effectiveness, and motor are all far superior. There's a reason why Jackson-Davis was invited to the NBA Combine and the guy who played in front of Ryan Young (let alone Young himself) wasn't.
That's not to say that Ryan Young isn't a good player or isn't valuable to a team. It's just that an Indiana team that was an NCAA tourney team was completely built around Jackson-Davis because he's that kind of talent while Young was a nice piece on a NU team that had NIT aspirations because he's that kind of talent.
Indiana was a tournament team like we were a tournament team, quite comparable talent.
Bubble team, got slaughtered by Saint Mary's 82-53 after beating a mediocre Wyoming team from an overrated conference. Yeah I know they made excuses about being tired.
Jackson-Davis had 12 points and 5 rebounds in 31 minutes of getting blown out.
He's not "that kind of talent." He's overrated.
And Ryan Young is underrated.
As evidenced by this discussion.
The stats support this assessment. Young was a slightly better rebounder, slightly worse scorer.
But I do appreciate your thoughtful response.
In Ryan Young’s best game against MSU he scored 18 points. Grabbed 8 boards. 0 Blocks. That’s all worse that Jackson-Davis avg. I love Young. Great role player for NU and servered us well. He’s not a borderline NBA talent. Jackson-Davis is a borderline NBA talent.
Young is overrated by a few on this board. He’s a stat sheet player. His skills and strengths really translate to the stat sheet(Scoring offensive rebounds, etc.). His weakness don’t translate as much to the stat sheet. (Defense, quickness, etc.) Excellent player. Got a lot out of his abilities. I’m glad he suited up in Purple. He’s not close to Jackson-Davis.
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Those things are all true or close to true. The only debate is how much better is Jackson-Davis than Young?
I mean they did play against each other twice two years ago. I would venture to guess that Young was not intimidated whatsoever by Jackson-Davis.
But you can't use per game numbers when one guy plays 18 minutes and the other guy plays 31.
Here's a scary thought for you - its possible that Collins would not have played Jackson-Davis ahead of either Nance or Beran because Jackson-Davis had limited shooting range. Everybody that got minutes for Collins last year was willing to chuck up 3 pointers. Collins' top 6 guys in minutes all attempted at least three 3 pointers per 40 minutes. Jackson-Davis didn't shoot 3's so...
I used a Young’s best game statistically when he started at center. Against Jackson-Davis season long avg. If anything that should be more favorable to Young in comparison.
Collins would have started Buie, Audige, Simmons, Nance, and Jackson Davis. For the beginning of the season. Then switch Roper out for Simmons later in the season. Nance and Young would both get min at the 5 when Jackson Davis was getting breathers. Beran and Williams backing up Nance. Nance played the 5 because he was our best option defensively at the 5. Excellent help defender poor post defender.
I don’t know how it’s a debate that a guy with borderline NBA talent is more than just a little better than a non-starter on a non tournament team. Jackson Davis is more than somewhat defensively better than Young lol. That’s the biggest difference level in both their games. Jackson-Davis is a really good B1G center. Young in a really good backup B1G center. Okay starting center. Struggles to much defensively to get too many min.
Thanks for thoughtfully stating your evaluation of the two guys. Its hard to know what Collins "would have done."
He loves Beran, I think thats hard to deny. Playing Nance primarily with Beran (instead of Young) suggests that he was philosophically opposed to using a traditional center and letting Nance roam the floor, scoring from all over. I would seriously hope that Collins would have been willing to play Jackson-Davis in the low post with Nance at the stretch-4. But I'm not sure he would have.
He may have alternated Nance and Jackson-Davis at the 5, making sure his precious Beran was out there doing whatever Collins thinks he does.
Pardon and Olah = Traditional 5's. Recruited your boy Nicholson who is a traditional 5. Not philosophically opposed to using a traditional center. Collins deserves criticism and he's earned it. You don't need to make things up to criticize him.
Olah was a Carmody recruit who played one decent season before NU fired Carmody.
Collins had zero alternatives when he took over. There was nobody of any quality on the roster over 6'8" besides Olah. In other words, Collins had to play Olah a lot.
In his 2nd class, Collins brought in Dererk Pardon, who was 6'8" with long arms and played with his back to the basket.
Also Barret Benson - a true big man.
But then we saw Rapolas Ivanauskas, a failed Pete Nance prototype.
The next year we got Nance himself and Ryan Young - a traditional low post player.
A couple years later Collins added Nicholson, our first really big post player since Olah.
But other than the undersized Pardon, all the traditional centers found themselves sitting on the bench a lot, unless we were desperate for size.
Geez that CCC is a dunce to think he could recruit these traditional big men and turn them into 3 point shooters!
If I increase his stats by pro rating his minutes? If a buzzard had a bugle up its ass there would be music in the sky!!! Light-years.
Oh man I'm sorry. It is difficult for me to detect sarcasm in written statements.
There a reason Young didn't play a lot of Mins, not that good. If you are the guy who Evaluate talent for NW, Lord help them...
I don't know what school NW is, but I'll go out on a limb and say Ryan Young could have started for Indiana.
| Player | Mins/Gm | Pts/40 | Rebs/40 | Assts/40 |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Race Thompson | 30.8 | 16.0 | 10.3 | 1.5 |
| Ryan Young | 17.1 | 17.9 | 10.6 | 2.3 |
Minutes are up to the coach. Performance is up to the player.
Well, rebounding is close. Young slight edge. There really aren't a lot of free, meaningful stats for defense.
You can sometimes look at blocked shots and steals, but neither guy was particularly adept at either.
Thompson 0.8 blocks, 1.2 steals per 40 minutes
Young 0.5 blocks, 0.8 steals per 40 minutes.
In my opinion, NU's perimeter defense was not as good as its post defense, which was not particularly great, but better than most people believe.
Well, I'd say Beran will be a big key whether Collins keeps his job after this year. If he performs like he did vs. Minnesota in the regular season finale, maybe all that love will pay off, but I'll believe it when I see it.