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Please put to rest

timbfischer

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Oct 22, 2009
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Please put to rest the narrative that NU is always the superior academic school for everything or for every person. As an an undergrad graduate of NU and a graduate assistant at both University of Arizona and Penn State, I can attest that the best students are great no matter where they go. Yes, there is a difference in complexity of education... the average student will learn more complexity at NU than at UA or PSU, because the average student is much more suited to advanced learning at NU. But make no mistake, a motivated student at ISU or Minny will have every bit a chance of competing for coveted grad school spots IF they apply themselves AND the prof is suited to it. The difference is that this is easier to do for football players at NU where both the academic and football staff seem to put more of a priority on athletes also excelling in the academic world. And out faculty TEND to be more highly regarded in MOST disciplnes... engineering (other than materials science is a drawback). And this may not be a plus for a lot of recruits.

I LOVE NU and think we ARE the best choice for ALL student athletes because our staff really does emphasize the STUDENT (not to mention the HUMAN and LEADERSHIP aspects of education). But let us not diss a high school athlete when they have goals that MAY be as well served by other programs.

I believe our staff does an EXCELLENT job of finding the RIGHT student athletes for our University and am proud of all who make the difficult choice to be a Northwestern University Football Wildcat.

Tim

Edited because I misspelled "Wildcat" DOH!
 
Please put to rest the narrative that NU is always the superior academic school for everything or for every person. As an an undergrad graduate of NU and a graduate assistant at both University of Arizona and Penn State, I can attest that the best students are great no matter where they go. Yes, there is a difference in complexity of education... the average student will learn more complexity at NU than at UA or PSU, because the average student is much more suited to advanced learning at NU. But make no mistake, a motivated student at ISU or Minny will have every bit a chance of competing for coveted grad school spots IF they apply themselves AND the prof is suited to it. The difference is that this is easier to do for football players at NU where both the academic and football staff seem to put more of a priority on athletes also excelling in the academic world. And out faculty TEND to be more highly regarded in MOST disciplnes... engineering (other than materials science is a drawback). And this may not be a plus for a lot of recruits.

I LOVE NU and think we ARE the best choice for ALL student athletes because our staff really does emphasize the STUDENT (not to mention the HUMAN and LEADERSHIP aspects of education). But let us not diss a high school athlete when they have goals that MAY be as well served by other programs.
While I don't disagree that every school offers a motivated student and opportunity to learn
I believe our staff does an EXCELLENT job of finding the RIGHT student athletes for our University and am proud of all who make the difficult choice to be a Northwestern University Football Wildcat.

Tim

Edited because I misspelled "Wildcat" DOH!

While I don't disagree that every university gives a motivated student the opportunity to get a great education even as they pursue elite athletics. I think NU does an excellent job in the football program to create a community culture that supports the young athlete to be a true student. I think it is one of the great challenges of the recruiting process, development and supervision. One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch but three or four can.
 
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While I don't disagree that every university gives a motivated student the opportunity to get a great education even as they pursue elite athletics. I think NU does an excellent job in the football program to create a community culture that supports the young athlete to be a true student. I think it is one of the great challenges of the recruiting process, development and supervision. One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch but three or four can.

I agree, I think I mentioned that I think NU does a fantastic job of scouting the young me who can live up the high standard.
 
You both said the same thing in interesting ways. I agree with both of you.

The GRE exam is a great equilizer. Kick butt on the GRE exam and it doesn't matter where you went to school.
 
Please put to rest the narrative that NU is always the superior academic school for everything or for every person. As an an undergrad graduate of NU and a graduate assistant at both University of Arizona and Penn State, I can attest that the best students are great no matter where they go. Yes, there is a difference in complexity of education... the average student will learn more complexity at NU than at UA or PSU, because the average student is much more suited to advanced learning at NU. But make no mistake, a motivated student at ISU or Minny will have every bit a chance of competing for coveted grad school spots IF they apply themselves AND the prof is suited to it. The difference is that this is easier to do for football players at NU where both the academic and football staff seem to put more of a priority on athletes also excelling in the academic world. And out faculty TEND to be more highly regarded in MOST disciplnes... engineering (other than materials science is a drawback). And this may not be a plus for a lot of recruits.

I LOVE NU and think we ARE the best choice for ALL student athletes because our staff really does emphasize the STUDENT (not to mention the HUMAN and LEADERSHIP aspects of education). But let us not diss a high school athlete when they have goals that MAY be as well served by other programs.

I believe our staff does an EXCELLENT job of finding the RIGHT student athletes for our University and am proud of all who make the difficult choice to be a Northwestern University Football Wildcat.

Tim

Edited because I misspelled "Wildcat" DOH!
Average ACT of the football players when I was at NU was 25!
 
You both said the same thing in interesting ways. I agree with both of you.

The GRE exam is a great equilizer. Kick butt on the GRE exam and it doesn't matter where you went to school.
Not as true anymore. Some grad schools don"t put as much weight into the GRE anymore. For research grad schools at least, a lot of weight is on prior research experiences which is often about opportunities. But, you can get those at most major universities these days. But an NU degree certainly goes a long way in the admissions committee and may cover up for some other deficiencies.
 
Meh - our sports history isn't great, so let's pretend to be the best academic institution in the country. Harmless fun!
 
Please put to rest the narrative that NU is always the superior academic school for everything or for every person. As an an undergrad graduate of NU and a graduate assistant at both University of Arizona and Penn State, I can attest that the best students are great no matter where they go. Yes, there is a difference in complexity of education... the average student will learn more complexity at NU than at UA or PSU, because the average student is much more suited to advanced learning at NU. But make no mistake, a motivated student at ISU or Minny will have every bit a chance of competing for coveted grad school spots IF they apply themselves AND the prof is suited to it. The difference is that this is easier to do for football players at NU where both the academic and football staff seem to put more of a priority on athletes also excelling in the academic world. And out faculty TEND to be more highly regarded in MOST disciplnes... engineering (other than materials science is a drawback). And this may not be a plus for a lot of recruits.

I LOVE NU and think we ARE the best choice for ALL student athletes because our staff really does emphasize the STUDENT (not to mention the HUMAN and LEADERSHIP aspects of education). But let us not diss a high school athlete when they have goals that MAY be as well served by other programs.

I believe our staff does an EXCELLENT job of finding the RIGHT student athletes for our University and am proud of all who make the difficult choice to be a Northwestern University Football Wildcat.

Tim

Edited because I misspelled "Wildcat" DOH!
Agree !

.02 And, Go Cats
 
Meh - our sports history isn't great, so let's pretend to be the best academic institution in the country. Harmless fun!
Unless people actually believe that it is the only institution in the country where someone can get a quality education.
 
Not as true anymore. Some grad schools don"t put as much weight into the GRE anymore. For research grad schools at least, a lot of weight is on prior research experiences which is often about opportunities. But, you can get those at most major universities these days. But an NU degree certainly goes a long way in the admissions committee and may cover up for some other deficiencies.

Of course, this depends on one's academic interests. In biology, I'll defer to you because you're in academia now, but I recall mediocre scores from prestigious schools being a red flag to admissions at Pitt. A prestigious degree from a highly selective school comes with expectations (which are usually met).

Good point on research experience, but like you said, one can get research experience at major and mid-major schools. However, for D1 athletes who don't have the same opportunity for the research experience other students have due to time demands, the name on the diploma probably has greater value.

This reminds me of...

 
It's not a good look when our fans run down a kid for picking another school over NU. We can tout our superior academics all the livelong day -- and in the end, there are only handful of schools we compete with for recruits that are close to matching NU's academic reputation -- but if someone chooses another place, I don't enjoy reading about how he clearly doesn't care about academics. There are a million reasons a 17-year-old picks one school over another, and academics may be important but not #1.
 
It's not a good look when our fans run down a kid for picking another school over NU. We can tout our superior academics all the livelong day -- and in the end, there are only handful of schools we compete with for recruits that are close to matching NU's academic reputation -- but if someone chooses another place, I don't enjoy reading about how he clearly doesn't care about academics. There are a million reasons a 17-year-old picks one school over another, and academics may be important but not #1.

Is it not accurate to say that a recruit choosing Iowa State over Northwestern or Oregon State over Stanford does not prioritize academics?
 
Is it not accurate to say that a recruit choosing Iowa State over Northwestern or Oregon State over Stanford does not prioritize academics?

It's pretty clear that that such a recruit does not put academics as a priority.

Anyone who suggests otherwise is in denial regardless of what positions on openness and subjectivity of academic prestige that they want to take.

This all said, NU isn't for everyone and if they choose to go elsewhere, I wish them well.
 
If you guys are saying picking ISU over NU means their TOP priority isn't academics, then I'd agree with you, but I think they can have academics on the list and just still like another school better because of X, Y, and Z, which are higher priorities. For example, a theoretical person might choose to go to a school like Kansas or Kentucky and will prioritize academics while he's there, but he picked Kansas or Kentucky because his girlfriend is going there and that was a HIGHER priority than academics.
 
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If you guys are saying picking ISU over NU means their TOP priority isn't academics, then I'd agree with you, but I think they can have academics on the list and just still like another school better because of X, Y, and Z, which are higher priorities. For example, a theoretical person might choose to go to a school like Kansas or Kentucky and will prioritize academics while he's there, but he picked Kansas or Kentucky because his girlfriend is going there and that was a HIGHER priority than academics.
Or they have a particular program that is higher priority than what is offered here. An example of what could have been is Pat Ward coming to NU. Had he viewed Aerospace Engineering as being more important and he had chosen to go to Purdue or somewhere else that offered it instead of NU, it would have been perfectly understandable as we do not even offer the major.
 
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Or they have a particular program that is higher priority than what is offered here. An example of what could have been is Pat Ward coming to NU. Had he viewed Aerospace Engineering as being more important and he had chosen to go to Purdue or somewhere else instead of NU, it would have been perfectly understandable as we do not even offer the major.

Get a grip...you’re finding the exception not the rule. A kid with academics as a priority does not choose Iowa State, Oregon State or NC State over NU, Stanford or Duke. It’s okay to say it.
 
Get a grip...you’re finding the exception not the rule. A kid with academics as a priority does not choose Iowa State, Oregon State or NC State over NU, Stanford or Duke. It’s okay to say it.
NU is a relatively small school. As a result, there are plenty of majors we do not have. (In engineering, I can think of a number of them but I am less familiar with other schools offerings at NU) If the potential recruit is sincere about going into one of those fields, it is a perfectly legitimate academic reason for going to another school that offers such a program rather than NU, even though overall they rank lover overall than NU.
 
I found with going to Northwestern for grad school after attending a small Pa. state school as an undergraduate that the biggest difference was the overall caliber of the student body. Certainly, the caliber of teaching can vary from school to school, but having observed public schools as a student, news reporter and sometimes teacher over the years, I'd say the biggest predictor of school quality is the type of student you're taking in.
 
NU is a relatively small school. As a result, there are plenty of majors we do not have. (In engineering, I can think of a number of them but I am less familiar with other schools offerings at NU) If the potential recruit is sincere about going into one of those fields, it is a perfectly legitimate academic reason for going to another school that offers such a program rather than NU, even though overall they rank lover overall than NU.

It’s less about the academic programs themselves and more about the emphasis placed on academics by the football programs.
 
It’s less about the academic programs themselves and more about the emphasis placed on academics by the football programs.

Exactly.

I don't know who among us has the time, but I'd be very curious to see the breakdown of majors among the NU football roster. I just went through Nos. 2-7 and I got 3 undeclared, 1 Comm, 1 LOC and 1 Mechanical Engineering (Jelani Roberts). A 17-year-old who prioritizes academics, but might not exactly know what he wants to do after college, chooses NU over those other schools, period. As OP said, "the difference is that this is easier to do for football players at NU where both the academic and football staff seem to put more of a priority on athletes also excelling in the academic world."

I of course understand if a recruit has a very clear major in mind and chooses the school that specializes in that. But, in general, that's not what we're talking about.
 
Exactly.

I don't know who among us has the time, but I'd be very curious to see the breakdown of majors among the NU football roster. I just went through Nos. 2-7 and I got 3 undeclared, 1 Comm, 1 LOC and 1 Mechanical Engineering (Jelani Roberts). A 17-year-old who prioritizes academics, but might not exactly know what he wants to do after college, chooses NU over those other schools, period. As OP said, "the difference is that this is easier to do for football players at NU where both the academic and football staff seem to put more of a priority on athletes also excelling in the academic world."

I of course understand if a recruit has a very clear major in mind and chooses the school that specializes in that. But, in general, that's not what we're talking about.

A key delineator is across scholarship and walk-on players. Many other schools will tout the number of guys majoring in engineering, chemistry, biology, etc. on the roster, but those will be by and large walk on guys while the scholarship guys are steered toward easier tracks. That’s not the case at NU (no matter what Kain Colter says).
 
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Hurt my feelings on the assessment of the engineering schools at NU. Really don't know how they rank individually but have to believe they are lower on balance than say journalism and theatre for a number of reasons. First is size. My engineering discipline graduated 16 students. At large state universities that is a drop in the bucket. Cannot carry a lot of award winning faculty at that size. Second is mission/expectations/facilities. The Purdue's of the world represent the industrial backbone of their state and are looked upon as major contributors to the economic vitality of Indiana in helping attract and nurture businesses. They have invested enormous monies into specialized laboratories/facilities (engineering and other STEM disciplines) and carry large faculty over a broad range of disciplines. Drive across the Virginia Tech and Maryland (or MIT) campuses and count the number of buildings devoted to engineering. Extraordinary. Contrast this with NU with limited space, no state funding, etc. Apples and oranges. What NU does do is attract very talented, motivated students who are offered an academically intense undergraduate technical education. Plus NU has select disciplines with exceptional graduate programs. STEM disciplines in large part (not entirely) are facility based programs. There are STEM disciplines where NU has invested heavily in facilities - mostly associated with the medical school - but not so much the case for many others. Cannot be all things for everyone. NU selects their priorities while offering quality education across the spectrum.
 
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Hurt my feelings on the assessment of the engineering schools at NU. Really don't know how they rank individually but have to believe they are lower on balance than say journalism and theatre for a number of reasons. First is size. My engineering discipline graduated 16 students. At large state universities that is a drop in the bucket. Cannot carry a lot of award winning faculty at that size. Second is mission/expectations/facilities. The Purdue's of the world represent the industrial backbone of their state and are looked upon as major contributors to the economic vitality of Indiana in helping attract and nurture businesses. They have invested enormous monies into specialized laboratories/facilities (engineering and other STEM disciplines) and carry large faculty over a broad range of disciplines. Drive across the Virginia Tech and Maryland (or MIT) campuses and count the number of buildings devoted to engineering. Extraordinary. Contrast this with NU with limited space, no state funding, etc. Apples and oranges. What NU does do is attract very talented, motivated students who are offered an academically intense undergraduate technical education. Plus NU has select disciplines with exceptional graduate programs. STEM disciplines in large part (not entirely) are facility based programs. There are STEM disciplines where NU has invested heavily in facilities - mostly associated with the medical school - but not so much the case for many others. Cannot be all things for everyone. NU selects their priorities while offering quality education across the spectrum.

...almost none of which affects football scholarship student-athletes.
 
If you guys are saying picking ISU over NU means their TOP priority isn't academics, then I'd agree with you, but I think they can have academics on the list and just still like another school better because of X, Y, and Z, which are higher priorities. For example, a theoretical person might choose to go to a school like Kansas or Kentucky and will prioritize academics while he's there, but he picked Kansas or Kentucky because his girlfriend is going there and that was a HIGHER priority than academics.

C'mon dude. You are not prioritizing academics if you choose Kansas or Kentucky over NU. You just aren't. You're prioritizing going to the school where your girlfriend is over pretty much everything. I'm not judging a kid for doing it. Maybe that girl is his sweetheart and soul mate and it's the right decision. But, let's not kid ourselves and pretend that he's picking those schools over NU because he prioritizes academics.
 
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Exactly.

I don't know who among us has the time, but I'd be very curious to see the breakdown of majors among the NU football roster. I just went through Nos. 2-7 and I got 3 undeclared, 1 Comm, 1 LOC and 1 Mechanical Engineering (Jelani Roberts). A 17-year-old who prioritizes academics, but might not exactly know what he wants to do after college, chooses NU over those other schools, period. As OP said, "the difference is that this is easier to do for football players at NU where both the academic and football staff seem to put more of a priority on athletes also excelling in the academic world."

I of course understand if a recruit has a very clear major in mind and chooses the school that specializes in that. But, in general, that's not what we're talking about.
FB has a more broad array of majors. But in BB, a good percentage seem to be communication majors.
 
C'mon dude. You are not prioritizing academics if you choose Kansas or Kentucky over NU. You just aren't. You're prioritizing going to the school where your girlfriend is over pretty much everything. I'm not judging a kid for doing it. Maybe that girl is his sweetheart and soul mate and it's the right decision. But, let's not kid ourselves and pretend that he's picking those schools over NU because he prioritizes academics.

It's probably just semantics at this point, so I probably don't need to argue this point anymore. I think a person choose KU because their girlfriend is there and still prioritize academics the entire time. They missed out on what we think might be a superior academic experience by picking it over NU, but it doesn't mean they don't care about academics at all.

I am happy with the guys we get at NU, and I try not to sweat the guys we don't. They make the decisions they make, and it's not for me to tell them they were wrong.
 
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It's probably just semantics at this point, so I probably don't need to argue this point anymore. I think a person choose KU because their girlfriend is there and still prioritize academics the entire time. They missed out on what we think might be a superior academic experience by picking it over NU, but it doesn't mean they don't care about academics at all.

I am happy with the guys we get at NU, and I try not to sweat the guys we don't. They make the decisions they make, and it's not for me to tell them they were wrong.

Not Prioritizing academics and not caring about academics at all are two different things.
 
Is it not accurate to say that a recruit choosing Iowa State over Northwestern or Oregon State over Stanford does not prioritize academics?
No. Stop it Coral. It also isn't accurate that a player isn't thinking if he chooses Minny over NU. A player is looking out for himself first and who knows whats best for the kid other than him and his immediate family. At any rate, these kids come in here all thinking they will further their career as a professional football player, so the clearest path to achieving that profession is to go to a football factory, i.e., if football is the dream and passion. Therefore, it makes 'good sense' for someone to go to The Ohio State University to become a professional as opposed to relying on hoping scouts notice you at the combine after a stellar NU career. See Jackson.
 
No. Stop it Coral. It also isn't accurate that a player isn't thinking if he chooses Minny over NU. A player is looking out for himself first and who knows whats best for the kid other than him and his immediate family. At any rate, these kids come in here all thinking they will further their career as a professional football player, so the clearest path to achieving that profession is to go to a football factory, i.e., if football is the dream and passion. Therefore, it makes 'good sense' for someone to go to The Ohio State University to become a professional as opposed to relying on hoping scouts notice you at the combine after a stellar NU career. See Jackson.

A kid picking Iowa State over NU or Stanford isn't doing so with academics as a deciding factor. Not in this world or any other except perhaps one where the world is flat and the moon is made of cheese.
 
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Is it not accurate to say that a recruit choosing Iowa State over Northwestern or Oregon State over Stanford does not prioritize academics?
No it is not. A kid will have a number of priorities and it is the overall combination of one package over another. Academics might still be a priority but the overall package of the best academic institution may not win out. Academics might be a priority but the kid might have 10 and if you don't win anywhere other than academics, you likely don't win.
 
A kid picking Iowa State over NU or Stanford isn't doing so with academics as a deciding factor. Not in this world or any other except perhaps one where the world is flat and the moon is made of cheese.
A deciding factor is not THE deciding factor. Lots of things can be important to the kid and it is the overall package he is deciding on.
 
I have a ton of respect for the athletes who graduate from NU, but it’s a bit of a chicken or the egg question in terms of what makes them who they are as a student-athlete. Is it the academic expectations and support that makes a student-athlete become a high level scholar, or is it because of the academic requirements, that high level scholars choose to become student-athletes at NU?

I agree with hdhntr that a variety of things can impact a recruits decision, and having something outside of academics being the factor that steers a person to a school that isn’t considered academically elite, doesn’t mean that academics aren’t important.
 
No. Stop it Coral. It also isn't accurate that a player isn't thinking if he chooses Minny over NU. A player is looking out for himself first and who knows whats best for the kid other than him and his immediate family. At any rate, these kids come in here all thinking they will further their career as a professional football player, so the clearest path to achieving that profession is to go to a football factory, i.e., if football is the dream and passion. Therefore, it makes 'good sense' for someone to go to The Ohio State University to become a professional as opposed to relying on hoping scouts notice you at the combine after a stellar NU career. See Jackson.

I agree Turk. In addition, if a kid who plays football at a “football factory” graduates with a 4.0 or high 3 point average, he will have the opportunity for a quality post-graduate degree, or a great job in their field equal to the demand for that job. The same goes for a kid at a school like NU or Stanford who happens to be a great football player with the ability to match up with any other player at that position in college football, will have a great opportunity to play in the NFL. For the few who are both athletically and intellectually elite, they really can’t make a wrong decision. (Unless they decide to go to Michigan- but that might just be my bias talking)
 
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