Question about the NU approach

[Sec.112]

There's a couple things that the Cats do regularly that were on full display tonight, and I just don't get. Can somebody with a more recent basketball background offer me a potential explanation about the thinking that goes into these two scenarios.

1) In one of the recent broadcasts, Bardo (I think) explained Collins openly says he would rather have a quick shot on offense or one deep into the shot clock. The quick shots were on full display tonight. And I'm not talking open layups.

Anybody with some bit of experience know why a coach would promote a quick shot, rather than a good shot at any point in the shot clock? If you do the quick shots repeatedly throughout the game (which the Cats do), I think the additional defense is going to take much more of a toll, than the extra time put into offense.

2) Tonight, the Cats had some real problems inbounding the ball near the end of the game. We've seen it for a couple years that the strategy is clearly to get the ball inbounds in the corners and get it out of there quickly to the center of the court. Any defense with half a brain understand this approach, and does a good job double-teaming the corner as Wisconsin did tonight.

Why does CC prefer to inbound to the corner?

I assume I'm missing something in the new thinking about both scenarios. I hope someone has an educated explanation.

 

[Seattle_Cat]

I also noticed some quick shots that didn't seem to be quality shots. I understand taking the quick shot if it is a good, high percentage shot. But often tonite they weren't all that good. Perhaps the player was overconfident.

 

[olshin]

There's a couple things that the Cats do regularly that were on full display tonight, and I just don't get. Can somebody with a more recent basketball background offer me a potential explanation about the thinking that goes into these two scenarios.

1) In one of the recent broadcasts, Bardo (I think) explained Collins openly says he would rather have a quick shot on offense or one deep into the shot clock. The quick shots were on full display tonight. And I'm not talking open layups.

My guess is that Collins wants a good OPEN shot before the defense sets up. Otherwise, late in the shot clock. That would be the thinking. Not always the reality though.

 

[pawildcat]

I'm of the old school that thinks it's always better to pass the ball a time or two unless you're on a fast break or get a high-quality, wide-open shot early. Maryland was dominating inside during the second half last night, but still hoisted a up a couple of very quick three-pointers (and they were off most of the night) when they probably could have gotten a layup if they'd worked a bit. I thought it helped lead to the upset by Michigan. I've noticed over the years something that happens when a team that has been behind makes a big run to get within two or three points. Next time up the court, one of the players from the rallying team often will hike up a quick three-pointer that misses more often than not. I think there's an unconscious desire to deliver the "dagger" that puts your team ahead or pulls you into a tie.

 

[ricko654321]

There's a couple things that the Cats do regularly that were on full display tonight, and I just don't get. Can somebody with a more recent basketball background offer me a potential explanation about the thinking that goes into these two scenarios.

1) In one of the recent broadcasts, Bardo (I think) explained Collins openly says he would rather have a quick shot on offense or one deep into the shot clock. The quick shots were on full display tonight. And I'm not talking open layups.

Anybody with some bit of experience know why a coach would promote a quick shot, rather than a good shot at any point in the shot clock? If you do the quick shots repeatedly throughout the game (which the Cats do), I think the additional defense is going to take much more of a toll, than the extra time put into offense.

2) Tonight, the Cats had some real problems inbounding the ball near the end of the game. We've seen it for a couple years that the strategy is clearly to get the ball inbounds in the corners and get it out of there quickly to the center of the court. Any defense with half a brain understand this approach, and does a good job double-teaming the corner as Wisconsin did tonight.

Why does CC prefer to inbound to the corner?

I assume I'm missing something in the new thinking about both scenarios. I hope someone has an educated explanation.

On point 1 I can't speak for CC but my sense is that he wants our pace of play to be a bit higher. In particular, with the game of bball emphasizing the value of 3s and short shots inside over midrange and long 2s. So if you get a good look from one of those areas early, then take it rather than wait til late in the shot clock when you may have to force something. The shorter shot clock helps this too. I mean he doesn't want them taking bad shots early, but it's a shift from the idea that you need to "run the offense" for a while before trying to score.

PS if you think this is a bad idea feel free to look at the top 5 offenses in the NBA (either by ppg or more importantly by efficiency) and consider whether they like to take "quick shots" or not.

On your second point again can't speak for him but I don't think our intention is to get the ball into the corner, everyone knows that's the worst place. But the fallback if the initial play doesn't work is basically BMac scramble to one corner or the other and throw it to him. The guy defending the inbounder often makes passes to the middle of the court tougher, also. On this topic though, I would say that I think our inbounds plays against a press need to get a bit more creative. It seems like the initial screens we set are halfhearted and not very sharp, they almost never set someone up. And half the time it seems like the play is essentially "everyone stay clear up around the FT line and run aimlessly around while we let BMac try to beat his guy 1 on 1 to get open."

 

[TheC]

On point 1 I can't speak for CC but my sense is that he wants our pace of play to be a bit higher. In particular, with the game of bball emphasizing the value of 3s and short shots inside over midrange and long 2s. So if you get a good look from one of those areas early, then take it rather than wait til late in the shot clock when you may have to force something. The shorter shot clock helps this too. I mean he doesn't want them taking bad shots early, but it's a shift from the idea that you need to "run the offense" for a while before trying to score.

PS if you think this is a bad idea feel free to look at the top 5 offenses in the NBA (either by ppg or more importantly by efficiency) and consider whether they like to take "quick shots" or not.

On your second point again can't speak for him but I don't think our intention is to get the ball into the corner, everyone knows that's the worst place. But the fallback if the initial play doesn't work is basically BMac scramble to one corner or the other and throw it to him. The guy defending the inbounder often makes passes to the middle of the court tougher, also. On this topic though, I would say that I think our inbounds plays against a press need to get a bit more creative. It seems like the initial screens we set are halfhearted and not very sharp, they almost never set someone up. And half the time it seems like the play is essentially "everyone stay clear up around the FT line and run aimlessly around while we let BMac try to beat his guy 1 on 1 to get open."

As for the press break, ideally you'd get the ball in the middle and work from there, but that is usually the one spot the defense is working very hard to take away from you. Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that you have five seconds to get the ball in bounds and the corner is usually the toughest place to defend and the place where an offensive player is mostly likely to get open. The key is to get it out of the corner before the trap is set and we seem to struggle with that.

 

[elgatoloco]

On point 2 I have never understood trouble against a press.

On point 1 watch MSU--they have pretty much the same philosophy, I think. They'll run a fast break, then a secondary break, then they'll back it up and run their sets.

 

[Fitz51]

On point 2 I have never understood trouble against a press.

Last night almost gave me flashbacks to that miserable last 90 seconds against Illinois at home a few years back - one of the most frustrating sports games I have ever seen, and I am not exaggerating. That Illinois game was a Top 5 groaner for me. I think I threw things across the room.

 

[willycat]

On point 2 I have never understood trouble against a press.

On point 1 watch MSU--they have pretty much the same philosophy, I think. They'll run a fast break, then a secondary break, then they'll back it up and run their sets.

Guess you have never tried breaking a press in pressure situations. I have, although it was in HS and JC but the intense pressure by the defense, especially the inbounds guy, the crowd noise and the clicking 5 second clock makes it tough. Remember practicing breaking a press for hours, after a frustrating late loss. Brutal.

 

[Sec.112]

My guess is that Collins wants a good OPEN shot before the defense sets up.

if you think this is a bad idea feel free to look at the top 5 offenses in the NBA (either by ppg or more importantly by efficiency) and consider whether they like to take "quick shots" or not.

Ahhhh, there it is for #1. Thank you, boys.

I remember reading that Coach K went through an offensive transformation from his work with Mike D'Antoni and Basketball USA. That's where the quick shot theory comes from. Now it makes sense.

 

[elgatoloco]

As for the press break, ideally you'd get the ball in the middle and work from there, but that is usually the one spot the defense is working very hard to take away from you. Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that you have five seconds to get the ball in bounds and the corner is usually the toughest place to defend and the place where an offensive player is mostly likely to get open. The key is to get it out of the corner before the trap is set and we seem to struggle with that.

Guess you have never tried breaking a press in pressure situations. I have, although it was in HS and JC but the intense pressure by the defense, especially the inbounds guy, the crowd noise and the clicking 5 second clock makes it tough. Remember practicing breaking a press for hours, after a frustrating late loss. Brutal.

And you'd be wrong. I didn't play in JC but in high school, despite my limited skill set, was the team's designated press breaker. There can be a ton of pressure (one team we played regularly was known for its 32-minutes-of-hell philosophy), but I always viewed the press as an opportunity to spread a team out and get an easy score.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

Attention, Elgatoloco, it looks as if GCG has hijacked your account, and is posting here on the basketball board.

 

[ricko654321]

Ahhhh, there it is for #1. Thank you, boys.

I remember reading that Coach K went through an offensive transformation from his work with Mike D'Antoni and Basketball USA. That's where the quick shot theory comes from. Now it makes sense.

I just took a look to check my own supposition since I wrote that without checking. Top 5 offenses in the NBA by efficiency (using pts per possession) are GS, OKC, Spurs, Cavs, Clips. Of those, GS is #2 in pace, OKC and Clips also in the top half. Spurs and Cavs below average pace. So obviously shooting quickly is not the only way to have an efficient offense, but certainly it can be effective, especially if you have good shot selection. Spurs are effective cause they use the heavy motion "pace and space" style. Cleveland has okay motion, but they also have the best 1 on 1 player in the game (and another very very good one), so they don't mind it so much if the clock runs down and it resorts to that.

And PS it's not exactly like the Cats are playing fast right now... by Pomeroy's adjusted tempo metric (which accounts for the pace of the teams you play) we as a strong 336th out of 351... Maybe it just feels faster than what we are used to at the margin. I think CC coaches our team to try to push the ball upcourt and look for an early open shot before D sets up. If nothing there, we go into one of our various high screen sets and move the ball around for a bit (or once every blue moon try to feed the post). If that doesn't work we give to BMac or occasionally Tre and have them create something.

Also, side note- it's very noticeable how Collins controls the pace once we get ahead. Kinda wish sometimes we wouldn't slow down and get out of our normal offense quite so early... but when BMac is on like he was yday then it tends to work out pretty well to just hand it to him.

 

[Deeringfish]

I'm no expert but taking a quick shot, if it is there, allows you to shoot and rebound before the D is set and take advantage of a little chaos.

 

[Sec.112]

And PS it's not exactly like the Cats are playing fast right now ... I think CC coaches our team to try to push the ball upcourt and look for an early open shot before D sets up.

Overall, I agree the Cats don't play fast, but they do somewhat force a few shots early in the clock.

I don't necessarily think the concept is a bad idea, but I also don't think the Cats have a stunningly good shot selection.

But with two starters down, I don't have a whole lot of complaints with how this season is going. FIRE AWAY!! (Well, except for ... and ... and ... )

 

[CappyNU]

Overall, I agree the Cats don't play fast, but they do somewhat force a few shots early in the clock.

I don't necessarily think the concept is a bad idea, but I also don't think the Cats have a stunningly good shot selection.

But with two starters down, I don't have a whole lot of complaints with how this season is going. FIRE AWAY!! (Well, except for ... and ... and ... )

You're correct in that we don't play fast relative to college basketball as a whole, however this is the fastest team we've had on offense since KenPom started tracking offensive and defensive possession lengths in 2010. What's more interesting is that we play such slow games because our DEFENSIVE possession length has been top-5 slowest in the last two seasons, which I believe is directly related to CCC's desire to not push for turnovers.