Seth Davis on CCC

[DaCat]

Well I’d be buying at a pretty low point with not much room for the value to decline (based on last year) so seems like an easy answer =)

Collins has been at NU for 7 seasons now, and his W-L trend is a pretty symmetrical parabola. The first three years were a steady increase in wins: 14-15-20 peaking at 24, then followed by three straight down years 15-13-8. Hard to imagine we are not at the bottom and ready for another upswing, especially given the recent strong recruiting and maturing of the talent. STRONG BUY.

 

[NUCat320]

Collins has been at NU for 7 seasons now, and his W-L trend is a pretty symmetrical parabola. The first three years were a steady increase in wins: 14-15-20 peaking at 24, then followed by three straight down years 15-13-8. Hard to imagine we are not at the bottom and ready for another upswing, especially given the recent strong recruiting and maturing of the talent. STRONG BUY.

CUBIC MODEL

 

[EvanstonCat]

Carmody's systems maximized the chances that his teams could win based on their talent and athleticism-you can criticize the talent base but not how he prepared it to contest against far superior teams

And yet doomed us to forever having insufficient talent and athleticism to ever really be successful or begin to compete against far superior teams.

Why are we still talking about this joker? The guy was given years more than he ever should have, and whether you are a CCC supporter or not, his predecessor’s departure was way overdue and I’m glad he’s no longer our coach.

 

[GatoLouco]

It is like the millionth discussion of BC and BC vs. Collins. It's actually possible to have respect for both:

1) BC was perfectly adequate if the school had only ambitions of not being a laughing stock. If we wanted to be even remotely relevant, he was not our guy. Hence why he was never on the radar for bigger programs

2) CC is a lot more aggressive in getting us to respectability. Ability to develop and coach TBD.

 

[NJCat]

2) CC is a lot more aggressive in getting us to respectability. Ability to develop and coach TBD.

Collins did something no other human did. Once. Let's not make him out to be the second coming of John Wooden. He's had just 2 winning seasons in 7.

 

[Sec.112]

I LOVE the all-hands-on-deck defense of Billy C ... exaggerations and all. Are we back in 2013 again?!?!

COVID-19? What's THAT!?!?

Obviously, it wasn't enough this thread began as reasonably critical of both coaches.

 

[willycat]

And but for the usual bad luck with injuries, BC would have done it.

You don't think a team with Coble, Juice, Shurna, Crawford and Cobb would have made it?

And CC still has yet to do it without an assist from BC (Lumpkin).

But, but he DIDN'T!

 

[ColumbusCatFan1]

I LOVE the all-hands-on-deck defense of Billy C ... exaggerations and all. Are we back in 2013 again?!?!

COVID-19? What's THAT!?!?

Obviously, it wasn't enough this thread began as reasonably critical of both coaches.

I’d say this post is a bit of an exaggeration too ; )

It’s bit of both; over the top defense and critique.

Personally, I was hoping we’d gotten to the point where that tenure could be talked about in a nuanced fashion (which in some ways, as you pointed out, it has).

We’re slowly getting there. Certainly not as ridiculous as in the past.

 

[curdog]

Collins did something no other human did. Once. Let's not make him out to be the second coming of John Wooden. He's had just 2 winning seasons in 7.

This is exactly right. Does he deserve a lifetime contract for getting us to the tourney?

 

[gocatsgo2003]

This is exactly right. Does he deserve a lifetime contract for getting us to the tourney?

Deserves a leash at least as the one Carmody got.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Is someone seriously attempting giving BC credit (or an assist) for the NCAA appearance. Because he recruited Lumpkin? Even though Sanjay didn’t play for him?

And this person is making some convoluted argument that BC actually did get us to the NCAAs if we discount injuries (though every team goes through injuries every year, including CCC’s NCAA team).

You must be effing kidding me.

WTF?????

 

[JournCat]

Is someone seriously attempting giving BC credit (or an assist) for the NCAA appearance. Because he recruited Lumpkin? Even though Sanjay didn’t play for him?

And this person is making some convoluted argument that BC actually did get us to the NCAAs if we discount injuries (though every team goes through injuries every year, including CCC’s NCAA team).

You must be effing kidding me.

WTF?????

Carmody was once caught napping at one of Sanjay's high school tournaments, btw ... a tale topped only by him calling into Frank Kaminsky's campus visit from vacation.

https://www.insidenu.com/2012/1/8/2691340/the-most-interesting-recruiting-trip-in-the-world

 

[DaCat]

Is someone seriously attempting giving BC credit (or an assist) for the NCAA appearance. Because he recruited Lumpkin? Even though Sanjay didn’t play for him?

And this person is making some convoluted argument that BC actually did get us to the NCAAs if we discount injuries (though every team goes through injuries every year, including CCC’s NCAA team).

You must be effing kidding me.

WTF?????

Carmody was not as bad as you portray him. He took over a dumpster fire and a "coach's graveyard" and when he left, he was the second winningest coach in program history (still is). He had his shortcomings, but give credit where it's due.

• 2004 Big Ten Coach of the Year
• 4 NITs in 4 consecutive years (2008-9 to 2011-12)
• 192-210 W-L record (Collins is 109-119 so far)
• Two 20-win seasons
• Recruited and coached the top scorer in program history (Shurna)

Obviously some of his glaring shortcomings are never going to the NCAA tournament, never having a winning season in the Big Ten, and disinterest in recruiting. But he took the program to a level of competitiveness, and helped set the stage for Collins' historic breakthrough.

 

[Max_Power]

Carmody was not as bad as you portray him. He took over a dumpster fire and a "coach's graveyard" and when he left, he was the second winningest coach in program history (still is). He had his shortcomings, but give credit where it's due.

• 2004 Big Ten Coach of the Year
• 4 NITs in 4 consecutive years (2008-9 to 2011-12)
• 192-210 W-L record (Collins is 109-119 so far)
• Two 20-win seasons
• Recruited and coached the top scorer in program history (Shurna)

Obviously some of his glaring shortcomings are never going to the NCAA tournament, never having a winning season in the Big Ten, and disinterest in recruiting. But he took the program to a level of competitiveness, and helped set the stage for Collins' historic breakthrough.

The two players in this class are the first players in the history of the program to have an actual hoops practice facility from day one. This means that NU is actually closer to being on an even playing field with the competition than ever before. The only barrier is academics and even that is workable.

The bottom line is that if there is a season this year, NU has a chance to be pretty good. NU has BigTen talent and depth at every position. The key for the season is Buie and Kopp. Can they coexist as 15ppg scorers and can Buie improve defensively. If that happens, this becomes a really interesting team with size upfront and probably enough at guard to be pretty good.

I would argue that this current group compares on paper favorably to best Carmody or Collins teams to date. Comparing the coaches and their records is apples and oranges. Carmody never had the facilities but he never had to deal with playing at the Allstate Arena or practicing out of a bloomquist. I mean even the limited facilities Carmody had at the end (the facility under the stairs) topped what Collins has dealt with in terms of being homeless for pretty much 3 years.

 

[chicagocatfan24]

This is the most exhausting argument of all time. This is the only way to look at it:

Carmody was completely mediocre
Aside from one year, Collins has also been completely mediocre

Just because Collins has underachieved doesn't mean it wasn't time to move on from Carmody.

 

[Sec.112]

This is the most exhausting argument of all time. This is the only way to look at it:

Carmody was completely mediocre
Aside from one year, Collins has also been completely mediocre

Just because Collins has underachieved doesn't mean it wasn't time to move on from Carmody.

That's funny Chicagocatfan24 because I was originally headed in the same direction as part of my post, then I deleted it. My direction ...

Frankly, I thought this thread was reasonably critical of both coaches. And that's what both deserve. At best, both are mid-level B10 coaches ... on their best days. Neither is Izzo. Hell, Matt f-ing Painter outclasses both of them.

So let's move along, and hope for the best.

 

[DaCat]

That's funny Chicagocatfan24 because I was originally headed in the same direction as part of my post, then I deleted it. My direction ...

Frankly, I thought this thread was reasonably critical of both coaches. And that's what both deserve. At best, both are mid-level B10 coaches ... on their best days. Neither is Izzo. Hell, Matt f-ing Painter outclasses both of them.

So let's move along, and hope for the best.

The next 2-3 years will be very telling whether Collins got what it takes to get the program to the top third of the conference. He will have a good mix of talent and experience. For him, it's do or die time.

 

[Styre]

This is the most exhausting argument of all time. This is the only way to look at it:

Carmody was completely mediocre
Aside from one year, Collins has also been completely mediocre

Just because Collins has underachieved doesn't mean it wasn't time to move on from Carmody.

Agreed, though that's compared to the rest of the Big Ten. Carmody reaching 4 straight NITs was a big accomplishment for Northwestern. Collins reaching the NCAAs was an even bigger accomplishment for Northwestern. But NU doesn't want to operate under "for Northwestern" standards anymore and that means we need to treat the HC position at least somewhat like other Big Ten schools do. By those standards, both coaches have been mediocre at best.

 

[IdahoAlum]

Agreed, though that's compared to the rest of the Big Ten. Carmody reaching 4 straight NITs was a big accomplishment for Northwestern. Collins reaching the NCAAs was an even bigger accomplishment for Northwestern. But NU doesn't want to operate under "for Northwestern" standards anymore and that means we need to treat the HC position at least somewhat like other Big Ten schools do. By those standards, both coaches have been mediocre at best.

I disagree Styre. If we want to approach Big Ten “standards,” we need to lower academic standards, starting paying all our students to show up for games, fire Collins about three seasons ago, hire a coach with deep shoe company pockets, and stop requiring our athletes to go to class and graduate. Absent all that, I’m good with “for Northwestern” standards.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Carmody was not as bad as you portray him. He took over a dumpster fire and a "coach's graveyard" and when he left, he was the second winningest coach in program history (still is). He had his shortcomings, but give credit where it's due.

• 2004 Big Ten Coach of the Year
• 4 NITs in 4 consecutive years (2008-9 to 2011-12)
• 192-210 W-L record (Collins is 109-119 so far)
• Two 20-win seasons
• Recruited and coached the top scorer in program history (Shurna)

Obviously some of his glaring shortcomings are never going to the NCAA tournament, never having a winning season in the Big Ten, and disinterest in recruiting. But he took the program to a level of competitiveness, and helped set the stage for Collins' historic breakthrough.

How did I portray him? I’m just saying he deserves no credit for our NCAA year. And he doesn’t get credit for having put a team into the NCAAs, when they didn’t even if it was (arguable at best, though doubtful) just because some of his players were injured.

In any case, he was the epitome of Northwestern mediocrity. He didn’t suck balls, but he was nothing better than mediocre. Period. That is how I portray him, and it’s no worse than he was.

 

[Styre]

I disagree Styre. If we want to approach Big Ten “standards,” we need to lower academic standards, starting paying all our students to show up for games, fire Collins about three seasons ago, hire a coach with deep shoe company pockets, and stop requiring our athletes to go to class and graduate. Absent all that, I’m good with “for Northwestern” standards.

This is a wild distortion of how the rest of the Big Ten actually operates. For example, nobody paid "all [their] students" to show up for basketball games. Maryland paid two students per football game, selected at random, in one season (2018), in the form of scholarships, using money that had been donated for that specific purpose.

Yes, NU has obstacles that other schools don't. But we have to stop acting like the basketball program is a minor-league operation. We hold the football program to a higher standard than we used to and we can do the same with the other revenue sport.

 

[Katatonic]

But Carmody didn’t. And Collins did. You can play your hypothetical games all day long. The facts don’t lie.

Did I mention Collins led NU to a victory over Vanderbilt in the NCAA tournament? That’s another fact.

Seem to recall people talking up injuries in order to give CC a pass on the recent struggles (not to say that it doesn't factor in, but to a certain point).

And the Fact remains that CC has yet to do so entirely with his own recruits will eventually do so, but as of yet, hasn't even made any postseason).

But as I had stated before, Phillips should have made the change earlier, and while BC would have kept a higher floor, there are limits to the PO system, and another coach (whether it be CC or someone else) would have a higher ceiling.

Thought the notion that BC would never have broken thru was silly (came as close as the program had ever done at that juncture), but didn't see anything beyond the Sweet 16.

A diff system with at least avg. B1G talent (upperclass-laden) could make a deeper run.

Why would the Lakers running the PO impact their defensive rebounding?

I know nothing about the Lakers running the PO but I'll venture why the rebounding sucked (a stat of which I am also unaware). The key is in your questions..."for a short while."

"For a short while" tells me it didn't work. In the NBA, that means the players rejected it. Which means they were unenthused about the system and coaching. Which is why the coach was fired before T'Giving.

Whether or not they were enthused by the PO didn't mean they stopped trying to pad their own stats for their own benefit.

They didn't seem to fall short when it came to scoring; for the 2012-13 season, the Lakers averaged more than 100 ppg whereas the season prior, they averaged in the 90s.

 

[Medill90]

Seem to recall people talking up injuries for giving CC a pass on the recent struggles (not to say that it doesn't factor in, to a certain point).

And the Fact remains that CC has yet to do so entirely with his own recruits will eventually do so, but as of yet, hasn't even , are the postseason).




Whether or not they were enthused by the PO didn't mean they stopped trying to pad their own stats for their own benefit.

They didn't seem to fall short when it came to scoring; for the 2012-13 season, the Lakers averaged more than 100 ppg whereas the season prior, they averaged in the 90s.

I guess two things...

Is the point to discredit Collins and thereby bolster Carmody? I support both coaches so may be the wrong guy to argue that with.

In a very NU way, every summer Carmody was here, I could conjure some rationale as to why the upcoming season would result in an NCAA bid. I do that now for Collins. Even last summer when guys here gave a sober outlook on the season I saw the NIT in the cards.

I thoroughly enjoyed Carmody, was wowed until the end by the PO, but could not deny that three quarters of the Big Ten had bigger more athletic horses than NU. I guess where I differ is that I attribute that almost entirely to academics.

In regards to the 12 - 13 Lakers team....look at the roster....Kobe...Metta World Peace...Steve Nash...Pau Gasol...Dwight Howard...Antwan Jamison. A gaggle of which came in between seasons. Of course they average more than the previous season...which had nothing to do with the PO...the coach...or the fact that cut Avocados spoil rapidly.

 

[go cats go]

I was on this thread on Saturday when it was only 10 posts or so deep. I returned this evening to see that it had 102 posts. I said to myself, "I bet it turned into a Carmody thread." Click. Scroll. Sure enough.

 

[IdahoAlum]

This is a wild distortion of how the rest of the Big Ten actually operates. For example, nobody paid "all [their] students" to show up for basketball games. Maryland paid two students per football game, selected at random, in one season (2018), in the form of scholarships, using money that had been donated for that specific purpose.

Yes, NU has obstacles that other schools don't. But we have to stop acting like the basketball program is a minor-league operation. We hold the football program to a higher standard than we used to and we can do the same with the other revenue sport.

The point was other Big Ten schools don’t HAVE to pay their students to come to games — at NU, that may be our only option to fill seats on a regular basis with NU — not opponents’ — fans.

 

[PurpleFaze]

The next 2-3 years will be very telling whether Collins got what it takes to get the program to the top third of the conference. He will have a good mix of talent and experience. For him, it's do or die time.

He definitely needs to start showing more in the win column the next 2-3 years. If he can continue to recruit at the same level he has that should be possible. The hope would be we improve record-wise and that allows him to recruit at an even higher level.

 

[cwcorgi-ks]

The point was other Big Ten schools don’t HAVE to pay their students to come to games — at NU, that may be our only option to fill seats on a regular basis with NU — not opponents’ — fans.

Another option: start winning consistently. Amazing how many people want to join in then.

 

[SDakaGordie]

The main point was that Collins is still a young coach.

 

[docrugby1]

I disagree Styre. If we want to approach Big Ten “standards,” we need to lower academic standards, starting paying all our students to show up for games, fire Collins about three seasons ago, hire a coach with deep shoe company pockets, and stop requiring our athletes to go to class and graduate. Absent all that, I’m good with “for Northwestern” standards.

I nominate you to become our next AD

 

[Styre]

The main point was that Collins is still a young coach.

I mean, he's 46 (older than Fitz, for example) and heading into his 8th year in charge of a high-major program. He certainly has many years ahead of him but it's not like he's a wide-eyed 30 year old.

 

[SDakaGordie]

I live in CT and have followed UCONN basketball (of course, since that’s all we have here), which offers a comparison. Kevin Ollie won an NCAA Championship in his second year as a coach. He was just super-fortunate to have had that kind of talent around him. No one would argue that Collins was / is a much better coach than Ollie. Collins is trying against some very tough odds to assemble the kind of talent that makes a coach successful. I think all eyes see that our talent is still inferior to other Big Ten teams. He is trying to change that, and we should all be very excited by his progress, even if it’s not surprisingly a bit inconsistent.

 

[hoosboot]

I live in CT and have followed UCONN basketball (of course, since that’s all we have here), which offers a comparison. Kevin Ollie won an NCAA Championship in his second year as a coach. He was just super-fortunate to have had that kind of talent around him. No one would argue that Collins was / is a much better coach than Ollie. Collins is trying against some very tough odds to assemble the kind of talent that makes a coach successful. I think all eyes see that our talent is still inferior to other Big Ten teams. He is trying to change that, and we should all be very excited by his progress, even if it’s not surprisingly a bit inconsistent.

While I hold out hope for the approach that Coach Collins is taking to improving the program, the results have actually been pretty consistent.

 

[SDakaGordie]

An NCAA tournament bid (and a victory in it) is a bit of an outlier, I would argue.

 

[hoosboot]

An NCAA tournament bid (and a victory in it) is a bit of an outlier, I would argue.

Totally. It's unfortunately a huge outlier at this point. Six of seven years the results have been very consistent. We're hoping that they start getting consistent in a different way as the young pups grow up.