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The season hinges on Mac

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IGNORE2

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Mar 12, 2005
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Not whether he has a great season, just whether he plays. 33 minutes yesterday against SIUE with nothing to prove. We have nothing to offer at PG after him. I think this is a gigantic Achilles heal and maybe the first real mistake by CCC.

CCC should have:
- recruited a true PG last year - or
- convinced Vasser to stay (not saying he is goodie not, but he is a true PG) - or
- made sure Vasser's schollie opened and brought in a 5th year transfer

Planning to play Mac 35+ minutes per game after Demps (who can be a black hole and is better playing off the ball, not bringing it up) is slated for 35+ is begging for injuries. I agree these guys are young enough to be conditioned for it, but that doesn't been the bruising amount of play won't physically break them down.

I'm nervous.
 
xyzbobxyz said:
Not whether he has a great season, just whether he plays. 33 minutes yesterday against SIUE with nothing to prove. We have nothing to offer at PG after him. I think this is a gigantic Achilles heal and maybe the first real mistake by CCC.

CCC should have:
- recruited a true PG last year - or
- convinced Vasser to stay (not saying he is goodie not, but he is a true PG) - or
- made sure Vasser's schollie opened and brought in a 5th year transfer

Planning to play Mac 35+ minutes per game after Demps (who can be a black hole and is better playing off the ball, not bringing it up) is slated for 35+ is begging for injuries. I agree these guys are young enough to be conditioned for it, but that doesn't been the bruising amount of play won't physically break them down.

I'm nervous.
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I agree with the main point you are making. But your statement about convincing Vasser to stay presumes that he had nothing to do with Johnny's decision to want to leave.
 
DocCatsFan said:
I agree with the main point you are making. But your statement about convincing Vasser to stay presumes that he had nothing to do with Johnny's decision to want to leave.
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Johnny Vassar did not appear to be the answer to the backup point guard problem in the limited minutes I saw him play. But backcourt depth is indeed a concern. That's why it's important to get Ash a lot of minutes in the next few games. Ash showed a little progress yesterday with a couple of nice plays late, but he was an off guard in high school and it still shows. By the way, I saw Gene Pingatore, his old coach at the game yesterday.
 
BMac is the one guy on the team that's indispensable right now. We could plug other holes, but not his. Hope he stays healthy. We've got a new PG coming in next year...between him and and year of development for Ash, hoping we'll have more depth next year.
 
I don't disagree about BMac's importance to the team, but this isn't the first time in NU history that any amount of success is riding on the shoulders of a single player. I might go as far to say the same can be said about any bottom-half B10 team ... almost any year.

As a sophomore, I think Vassar would have been a reasonable back-up option.

One of the issues I see with Collins in this situation is a trait in him that I have a real love-hate for. In this case, I think Collins wanted to give Demps every chance in the world to show something at point guard. It's something both have talked about. So Collins thought he could get away with BMac, Demps and whatever.

To me, we've already seen that Demps is nowhere near a point guard, and this is the real problem. When he's playing, the offense takes much longer to get into a rhythm (usually a minimum of 10 seconds). Those valuable seconds kill the shot clock. Also, he doesn't recognize much in the offense, and too often pulls the ball back.

To me, Collins is totally a players coach. Quite often, he puts faith in players and wants to give them EVERY opportunity to succeed in the western hemisphere when they haven't shown much of a certain talent.

I think he also has that old-school quality that juniors and seniors have earned some blind faith for their loyalty. Part of me likes that.

In both cases, I think we've already seen instances where this has been a real drag on the team. We've also seen where the on-court development lead to some successes.

In the end, everybody who has said this stretch is the time to rest BMac and Demps is totally on the money. I don't think you needed BMac anywhere near 33 minutes yesterday.

And BTW, what about Charlie Hall? Not as a solution at point guard. But Collins couldn't get the kid into the game with a 20-something point lead?
 
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DocCatsFan said:
I agree with the main point you are making. But your statement about convincing Vasser to stay presumes that he had nothing to do with Johnny's decision to want to leave.
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Until I can understand how Vasser can remain on athletic scholarship at NU despite not being on the team, I have to believe CCC had such power. If he was hurt and had to leave, there's a provision for that. I seem to recall that NU is unique in giving 4, not 1, year scholarships. That suggests unless that CCC dismissed him from the team and not due to any action or behavior that could cause him to lose his scholarship.

Heywood - c'mon buddy, share a little something with us.
 
xyzbobxyz said:
Until I can understand how Vasser can remain on athletic scholarship at NU despite not being on the team, I have to believe CCC had such power. If he was hurt and had to leave, there's a provision for that. I seem to recall that NU is unique in giving 4, not 1, year scholarships. That suggests unless that CCC dismissed him from the team and not due to any action or behavior that could cause him to lose his scholarship.

Heywood - c'mon buddy, share a little something with us.
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Or it could simply be that Vasser chose to transfer, but couldn't find a school and is still looking. Why would he be on the current team if he is still looking to transfer?
 
VirginiaWildcat said:
Or it could simply be that Vasser chose to transfer, but couldn't find a school and is still looking. Why would he be on the current team if he is still looking to transfer?
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Then why would they honor his scholarship? I was on an athletic scholarship and nearly lost it over a conflict with an assistant coach. NU just doesn't give athletic money away. There is a unpublished reason Vasser is at NU on schollie and not playing and I'm convinced his actions are not reason.
 
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xyzbobxyz said:
Then why would they honor his scholarship? I was on an athletic scholarship and nearly lost it over a conflict with an assistant coach. NU just doesn't give athletic money away. There is a unpublished reason Vasser is at NU on schollie and not playing and I'm convinced his actions are not reason.
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They have to honor his scholarship...
 
VirginiaWildcat said:
They have to honor his scholarship...
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Untrue. If you refuse to participate, it goes to a council. There are routes thereafter, but that council hears each side during a hearing and makes a ruling. A voluntary refusal to participate in reasonable team related activities is grounds for loss of scholarship. And I know this first hand. Either Vasser would have to have agreed to participate or NU pulls the scholarship. You could appeal and then take to Court, but I suspect violating the scholarship contract signed by both parties would the school's action.

Either the Vasser schollie is available or the school removed Vasser front the team for non-disciplinary reason and must honor the contract.
 
xyzbobxyz said:
Untrue. If you refuse to participate, it goes to a council. There are routes thereafter, but that council hears each side during a hearing and makes a ruling. A voluntary refusal to participate in reasonable team related activities is grounds for loss of scholarship. And I know this first hand. Either Vasser would have to have agreed to participate or NU pulls the scholarship. You could appeal and then take to Court, but I suspect violating the scholarship contract signed by both parties would the school's action.

Either the Vasser schollie is available or the school removed Vasser front the team for non-disciplinary reason and must honor the contract.
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You're trying to muddy up something that's very simple.

1. CCC tells Vasser he still has a lot of work to do before getting significant PT.
2. Vasser thinks he's better than that and announces he will transfer.
3. Vasser expects lots of calls over the summer (and as a result isn't very proactive in searching for a new home), but gets only a few, from lesser schools.
4. Choosing not to attend the handful much lesser schools, he ends up still at NU in the fall, and NU honors his scholie (because we're NU).
5. Collins, miffed because Vasser didn't attend any summer workouts and still plans to transfer, told him not to bother joining the team in the fall.
 
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Well, that flies in the face of personal experience. Very similar personal experience. Vasser can announce whatever he wants as long as it does not denigrate the school or program. But once he refuses to participate, then the money is challenged through the administrative process. NU is not as gracious as you describe. A disgruntled athlete will not be coddled and rewarded with $75K in tuition and benefits. I'm sorry - but unless NU has changed dramatically, it doesn't work that way. Besides my own experience, I also was close to a football player that decided to quit after his junior year. No PT in the future - he didn't want the time obligations to be a practice player. NU helped him get on to financial aid, but took away his scholarship.

Now, with the much more limited number of schollies in basketball, a major deficiency in the position in question, you are proposing that NU parted with policy and elected to honor Vasser's scholarship despite his unwillingness to participate in the program due to limitations discussed with CCC?

Let's say everything you described happened. The AD should, and I would expect to, have a frank conversation with CCC. "Listen, these are 18 year old minds and they don't make the best decisions. Right now, you need another warm body at PG going into the season - even if just for practice. We want you to put Vasser back in the program." An adult conversation - even if Vasser rides the pine all year long. (Which many, many schollie athletes have and continue to do.) If Vasser declines, good bye schollie and now look for that 5th year transfer - even at the midyear. Otherwise, Vasser would be present and in light of the shallow depth at PG and the fact is that Ash is a freshman without PG experience and Demps is showing not to be an option, you would be seeing a little bit of Vasser.

But the current situation - a fiasco, in my humble opinion. If CCC chose not to include a scholarship athlete at a position in need because that athlete wanted to transfer due to PT, then CCC is acting out as poorly as Vasser did. If it is an attitude or behavior issue, then there should have been a process to remove the schollie and replace with a financial aid package. Therefore, while I love most everything that I have seen from CCC, this is the first kink in his armor - IMHO. If Mac goes down for any long period, these decisions will loom larger and should draw some critique - if so only to learn from them.
 
xyzbobxyz said:
Let's say everything you described happened. The AD should, and I would expect to, have a frank conversation with CCC. "Listen, these are 18 year old minds and they don't make the best decisions. Right now, you need another warm body at PG going into the season - even if just for practice. We want you to put Vasser back in the program."
Click to expand...

Or he *might* say..."The kid doesn't want to be on the team? Fine. No reason for him to be there is he's still looking to transfer." What coach wants to have a kid on his squad that doesn't want to be there?

He'd rather invest the time in Ash who actually ISN'T still looking to transfer.
 
VirginiaWildcat said:
You're trying to muddy up something that's very simple.

1. CCC tells Vasser he still has a lot of work to do before getting significant PT.
2. Vasser thinks he's better than that and announces he will transfer.
3. Vasser expects lots of calls over the summer (and as a result isn't very proactive in searching for a new home), but gets only a few, from lesser schools.
4. Choosing not to attend the handful much lesser schools, he ends up still at NU in the fall, and NU honors his scholie (because we're NU).
5. Collins, miffed because Vasser didn't attend any summer workouts and still plans to transfer, told him not to bother joining the team in the fall.
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Aren't you the guy who is always whining about no evidence being offered to support opinions of the Vasser situation and yet you come up with this?
 
xyzbobxyz said:
Well, that flies in the face of personal experience. Very similar personal experience. Vasser can announce whatever he wants as long as it does not denigrate the school or program. But once he refuses to participate, then the money is challenged through the administrative process. NU is not as gracious as you describe. A disgruntled athlete will not be coddled and rewarded with $75K in tuition and benefits. I'm sorry - but unless NU has changed dramatically, it doesn't work that way. Besides my own experience, I also was close to a football player that decided to quit after his junior year. No PT in the future - he didn't want the time obligations to be a practice player. NU helped him get on to financial aid, but took away his scholarship.

Now, with the much more limited number of schollies in basketball, a major deficiency in the position in question, you are proposing that NU parted with policy and elected to honor Vasser's scholarship despite his unwillingness to participate in the program due to limitations discussed with CCC?

Let's say everything you described happened. The AD should, and I would expect to, have a frank conversation with CCC. "Listen, these are 18 year old minds and they don't make the best decisions. Right now, you need another warm body at PG going into the season - even if just for practice. We want you to put Vasser back in the program." An adult conversation - even if Vasser rides the pine all year long. (Which many, many schollie athletes have and continue to do.) If Vasser declines, good bye schollie and now look for that 5th year transfer - even at the midyear. Otherwise, Vasser would be present and in light of the shallow depth at PG and the fact is that Ash is a freshman without PG experience and Demps is showing not to be an option, you would be seeing a little bit of Vasser.

But the current situation - a fiasco, in my humble opinion. If CCC chose not to include a scholarship athlete at a position in need because that athlete wanted to transfer due to PT, then CCC is acting out as poorly as Vasser did. If it is an attitude or behavior issue, then there should have been a process to remove the schollie and replace with a financial aid package. Therefore, while I love most everything that I have seen from CCC, this is the first kink in his armor - IMHO. If Mac goes down for any long period, these decisions will loom larger and should draw some critique - if so only to learn from them.
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There's a lot of posts I don't agree with when it comes to xyzbobxys, but I think he's on the money with this situation.
 
wildcatpn said:
Didn't he just reprimand you for providing no evidence for your opinions and then 2 minutes later praise someone else who provided no evidence for their opinions?
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I have no problem with him offering his opinion. He's offered his theory countless times on the Johnny Vasser situation. However, whenever anybody offers a contrary opinion such as the one xyzbob offered he is quick to discount it as somehow anti-CC and makes criticisms to the tune of "you can't offer one shred of evidence to support that view." Well, Viginia hasn't offered such support of his view either. That's all I'm saying. Finally, I wouldn't say I'm "praising" anyone. I'm merely agreeing with him.
 
xyzbobxyz said:
But the current situation - a fiasco, in my humble opinion. .
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xyz, appreciate your analysis and the sharing of your personal history. A couple questions for you....

* Is it possible that the administrative process has not yet been triggered simply because there's been no need to free up the scholly?
* I know through some faculty friends that Shapiro is really pushing athletics as a way to help solve the diversity challenge that NU grapples with. Is it possible that Vasser is on a longer leash?

I know that in the press release Collins is quoted to say that Vasser came to him and declared that he wanted to transfer. Collins doesn't get to push the button on university press notifications, the AD no doubt signed off on that. So, why say that publicly if it wasn't true?
 
VirginiaWildcat said:
Or he *might* say..."The kid doesn't want to be on the team? Fine. No reason for him to be there is he's still looking to transfer." What coach wants to have a kid on his squad that doesn't want to be there?

He'd rather invest the time in Ash who actually ISN'T still looking to transfer.
Click to expand...

To answer your question - Ummm - any coach missing a PG? Even if he rides the pine, he becomes a practice player, a scout team player. Instead of running Mac against Ash to teach the point, you run Vasser. Less mileage on Mac. Those bumps and bruises, screens and dives, in practice, in games - are going to add up. And I hope Mac got his flu shot.

It's an adult decision vs a juvenile one. It's also a $75K decision. I don't know many kids that would show up and get posterized daily by going through the motions. Either Vasser would say - 'nope, screw you' thereby opening that schollie for use - or would go in and play hard. Whether to grow tape for another program or whatever. And in all practicality, as things have played out, Vasser would be seeing game time. And maybe, just maybe, he might have worked himself into the true back-up role by the end of the year and going into next, eliminating the need to throw Brown into the heavy rotation as a freshman. And eliminating the need to force Ash outside his comfort zone, if he is going to see some minutes this year.

Frankly, Ash is not our next PG. Brown is. Ash is our next Demps or Lindsey at the 2. A guard, with some ball handling skills brought in to shoot. We are forced to put this young, square peg in a round hole because we have no other option. If that is due to a coaching decision, then I openly question that decision. If things go south with Mac, I would hope others will openly question that decision.

Sorry Virgina, and I really like what CCC to date, but until other information comes out - this was a bonehead mistake. With dozens of PG transfers available over the summer, to allow the current status to occur - inexcusable.
 
xyzbobxyz said:
To answer your question - Ummm - any coach missing a PG? Even if he rides the pine, he becomes a practice player, a scout team player. Instead of running Mac against Ash to teach the point, you run Vasser. Less mileage on Mac. Those bumps and bruises, screens and dives, in practice, in games - are going to add up. And I hope Mac got his flu shot.

It's an adult decision vs a juvenile one. It's also a $75K decision. I don't know many kids that would show up and get posterized daily by going through the motions. Either Vasser would say - 'nope, screw you' thereby opening that schollie for use - or would go in and play hard. Whether to grow tape for another program or whatever. And in all practicality, as things have played out, Vasser would be seeing game time. And maybe, just maybe, he might have worked himself into the true back-up role by the end of the year and going into next, eliminating the need to throw Brown into the heavy rotation as a freshman. And eliminating the need to force Ash outside his comfort zone, if he is going to see some minutes this year.

Frankly, Ash is not our next PG. Brown is. Ash is our next Demps or Lindsey at the 2. A guard, with some ball handling skills brought in to shoot. We are forced to put this young, square peg in a round hole because we have no other option. If that is due to a coaching decision, then I openly question that decision. If things go south with Mac, I would hope others will openly question that decision.

Sorry Virgina, and I really like what CCC to date, but until other information comes out - this was a bonehead mistake. With dozens of PG transfers available over the summer, to allow the current status to occur - inexcusable.
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Sorry, xyz, but you don't know the situation, or what happened. That much I can say for certain.
 
Medill90 said:
xyz, appreciate your analysis and the sharing of your personal history. A couple questions for you....

* Is it possible that the administrative process has not yet been triggered simply because there's been no need to free up the scholly?
* I know through some faculty friends that Shapiro is really pushing athletics as a way to help solve the diversity challenge that NU grapples with. Is it possible that Vasser is on a longer leash?

I know that in the press release Collins is quoted to say that Vasser came to him and declared that he wanted to transfer. Collins doesn't get to push the button on university press notifications, the AD no doubt signed off on that. So, why say that publicly if it wasn't true?
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Starting with the last question first - I don't understand how. As soon as Vasser refuses to participate in program responsibilities, even media related, his contract becomes target for administrative remedy. There are steps for the athlete and team and then AD to work it out - but ultimately, either side can push it to an administrative hearing. My recollection was my panel included faculty outside coaching and at least one student. Even after that point, but before the decision is published, the parties can resolve - as happened in my case. I was in a non-revenue sport.

My buddy the football player - he announced before Spring practice in his junior year. They immediately informed him their intent to retract his schollie beginning with the next term - I think it was for summer. Then, they offered to help him with the financial aid process so that he could remain in school. And that's what they did - and he went on to play rugby senior year. The following year, his roommate, slated to start at tackle, had a meltdown around Kenosha and left the team. (Much has to do with these two being roommates and my friend was probably not the best influence. That OL had pro size and potential that he threw away.) Since his meltdown was colored in psych issues, he retained his schollie - but was not well accepted by the coaching staff. The impression he felt was that they thought he played the system.

The admin process would have been triggered when the school informed Vasser, officially, after he announced plans to transfer that his scholarship would be withdrawn effective Summer 2015. The admin process moves very fast - mine occurred in July of the relevant year. So, if Vasser was the moving force and withdrew from bball activities, the ball would have begun rolling before end of school in June. CCC had to know he would be thin at PG. There were dozens of transfer options besides any last minute PG recruiting. If CCC did not recognize the value of that $75K schollie, I'm sure the school would - based on those experiences above.

I cannot speak to the second question. My experience during time at NU demonstrated great diversity. I recall all colors and creeds well represented. While the white population was the majority, there were lots of non-whites. I cannot see Shapiro stepping into a matter involving one bball player with a 13 schollie limit, and interfering.

Besides, we do have a precedent here. Turner quit - chose not to transfer too. He left his schollie behind. It was very clear that Turner made his own decision and therefore, no longer qualified for the schollie. That's why this Vasser situation so intrigues me. Says he is leaving, he stays, keeps his money and now we are very short handed at his position. Pretty much defines win-win opportunity. Vasser could solve a problem and possibly improve transfer options or earn a spot. Who loses?
 
VirginiaWildcat said:
Sorry, xyz, but you don't know the situation, or what happened. That much I can say for certain.
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No apologies necessary - I think this is discussion worthy so I open a thread. I still believe if it comes to a head - due to a Mac problem - then more people will ask why we risked a year that we are posed to continue our breakthrough by having on PG on the team and another on the campus. Those that Are put off by my position on things, or simple have me on ignore, will see many more people talking about the topic.

I hope it doesn't happen. I want to see a post season - preferably NCAA. But this scenario begs some questions.
 
DocCatsFan said:
I have no problem with him offering his opinion. He's offered his theory countless times on the Johnny Vasser situation. However, whenever anybody offers a contrary opinion such as the one xyzbob offered he is quick to discount it as somehow anti-CC and makes criticisms to the tune of "you can't offer one shred of evidence to support that view." Well, Viginia hasn't offered such support of his view either. That's all I'm saying. Finally, I wouldn't say I'm "praising" anyone. I'm merely agreeing with him.
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Still haven't got over it, huh Doc.
 
VirginiaWildcat said:
Doc, did you see Kale Abrahamson is averaging 17+PPG? Good for him, eh?
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Kale has been playing great at Drake. Scored over 40 in one game. They're playing DePaul on Wed if you're interested.

More news about Kale. He completed in degree in psychology in 3 years and is now taking graduate courses. He just achieved an academic honor for having a 4.0 GPA in his first semester of graduate work.
 
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xyzbobxyz said:
I still believe if it comes to a head - due to a Mac problem - then more people will ask why we risked a year that we are posed to continue our breakthrough by having on PG on the team and another on the campus.
Click to expand...

If BMac has issues...Vasser wouldn't have been the solution this year. I don't think it hurts us at all with him not on the roster...honestly. He wouldn't be playing if he was.
 
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