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Third rail: Questions on NU football religion/flag waving

Hkjb

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2016
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This is going to be my last football post concerning Fitz's departure, lawsuits, hazing etc. From now on, just the team and football field performance. I've always been a Fitz fan and think he's a principled leader with some blindspots who should have known more. Salty times.

But there are few things I always wondered about, vis a vis the culture of the university: And how much do these things need to "fit"?

a) the military/navy SEAL/flag waving patriotism: I get how intense training and toughness relate to football. But I've personally felt the flag waving came across gratuitous. Not casting shade on vets, but at the same time that doesn't mean that we need to mention and invoke the military constantly. If we're a service academy, sure. But we're a snobby private school with Alums that run Hollywood. What a juxtaposition! It never really seriously bothered me, but in hindsight I wonder, was that a factor in terms of Fitz's friction with faculty? Or is that a minimum requirement for any football program trying to recruit kids from Texas? I really don't know and would like to hear views.

b) The overt expression of religious beliefs - In our case the Christian kind. Same thing - no shade on Christians including those who like to display their religious beliefs. There seems to have been a lot of religiously expressive displays from our players over the years. Not sure if this is just how all of America is, how all of collegiate athletics is, or if there's a higher concentration of that within our football team? To my untrained eye, I've always felt we had more of those things on display versus most other football programs.

All taken together, I can see how the left-leaning faculty (who may not be terribly tolerant) would wonder why they have this NASCAR-type character coaching religious players - as the most visible face of the university. I would personally feel that any faculty with those views are petty - but knowing their type, it wouldn't surprise me. I've never been a fan of all the performative patriotism - but no need to hate on the guy if that's what he and the team want to express.

Not really taking sides on this - but am eager to hear any observations on the subcultural vibes of the program and whether they are unique or different versus other teams. It's also a question of how a coach "brand" might fit with NU in the future. For example, a David Shaw type I can see being a match with the reality of the NU faculty and alumni base. That doesn't mean we'd win with him.

Still, I do fear that there may be a cultural faultline that could make it hard to find our footing - most recently reflected in the "Cat's against the world" T-shirt kerfuffle.
 
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Wait, did you just start a new thread with a post that says "this will be my last post?"
You should be so lucky. Just my last post dealing with the hazing train crash. From now on I will only post about the actual team performance/ability to compete on the field. Clunky language though - have made it clearer hopefully.....
 
This is going to be my last football post concerning Fitz's departure, lawsuits, hazing etc. From now on, just the team and football field performance. I've always been a Fitz fan and think he's a principled leader with some blindspots who should have known more. Salty times.

But there are few things I always wondered about, vis a vis the culture of the university: And how much do these things need to "fit"?

a) the military/navy SEAL/flag waving patriotism: I get how intense training and toughness relate to football. But I've personally felt the flag waving came across gratuitous. Not casting shade on vets, but at the same time that doesn't mean that we need to mention and invoke the military constantly. If we're a service academy, sure. But we're a snobby private school with Alums that run Hollywood. What a juxtaposition! It never really seriously bothered me, but in hindsight I wonder, was that a factor in terms of Fitz's friction with faculty? Or is that a minimum requirement for any football program trying to recruit kids from Texas? I really don't know and would like to hear views.

b) The overt expression of religious beliefs - In our case the Christian kind. Same thing - no shade on Christians including those who like to display their religious beliefs. There seems to have been a lot of religiously expressive displays from our players over the years. Not sure if this is just how all of America is, how all of collegiate athletics is, or if there's a higher concentration of that within our football team? To my untrained eye, I've always felt we had more of those things on display versus most other football programs.

All taken together, I can see how the left-leaning faculty (who may not be terribly tolerant) would wonder why they have this NASCAR-type character coaching religious players - as the most visible face of the university. I would personally feel that any faculty with those views are petty - but knowing their type, it wouldn't surprise me. I've never been a fan of all the performative patriotism - but no need to hate on the guy if that's what he and the team want to express.

Not really taking sides on this - but am eager to hear any observations on the subcultural vibes of the program and whether they are unique or different versus other teams. It's also a question of how a coach "brand" might fit with NU in the future. For example, a David Shaw type I can see being a match with the reality of the NU faculty and alumni base. That doesn't mean we'd win with him.

Still, I do fear that there may be a cultural faultline that could make it hard to find our footing - most recently reflected in the "Cat's against the world" T-shirt kerfuffle.
Great questions. Should the "Fighting Methodists " be totally secular? And does the faux patriotic flag waving fit Chicago's teams base?
 
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I don’t think that patriotism or religion had anything to do with Fitz’ firing. Honoring veterans and featuring the American flag at games happens all over the country. I am guessing that some other programs use Navy Seals or Seal techniques as part of summer practice. I have not noticed any overt references to religion at home games. I have noticed that recruits all over the country often include references to their God as they express gratitude for the opportunity to play at their school of choice.

My opinion is that the firing was a “rouge” decision made by Schill that should have been backstopped by the BOT. (Gragg was MIA). Schill does not seem to appreciate the role of athletics in a university setting, which is unfortunate but probably not related to his politics.
 
This is going to be my last football post concerning Fitz's departure, lawsuits, hazing etc. From now on, just the team and football field performance. I've always been a Fitz fan and think he's a principled leader with some blindspots who should have known more. Salty times.

But there are few things I always wondered about, vis a vis the culture of the university: And how much do these things need to "fit"?

a) the military/navy SEAL/flag waving patriotism: I get how intense training and toughness relate to football. But I've personally felt the flag waving came across gratuitous. Not casting shade on vets, but at the same time that doesn't mean that we need to mention and invoke the military constantly. If we're a service academy, sure. But we're a snobby private school with Alums that run Hollywood. What a juxtaposition! It never really seriously bothered me, but in hindsight I wonder, was that a factor in terms of Fitz's friction with faculty? Or is that a minimum requirement for any football program trying to recruit kids from Texas? I really don't know and would like to hear views.

b) The overt expression of religious beliefs - In our case the Christian kind. Same thing - no shade on Christians including those who like to display their religious beliefs. There seems to have been a lot of religiously expressive displays from our players over the years. Not sure if this is just how all of America is, how all of collegiate athletics is, or if there's a higher concentration of that within our football team? To my untrained eye, I've always felt we had more of those things on display versus most other football programs.

All taken together, I can see how the left-leaning faculty (who may not be terribly tolerant) would wonder why they have this NASCAR-type character coaching religious players - as the most visible face of the university. I would personally feel that any faculty with those views are petty - but knowing their type, it wouldn't surprise me. I've never been a fan of all the performative patriotism - but no need to hate on the guy if that's what he and the team want to express.

Not really taking sides on this - but am eager to hear any observations on the subcultural vibes of the program and whether they are unique or different versus other teams. It's also a question of how a coach "brand" might fit with NU in the future. For example, a David Shaw type I can see being a match with the reality of the NU faculty and alumni base. That doesn't mean we'd win with him.

Still, I do fear that there may be a cultural faultline that could make it hard to find our footing - most recently reflected in the "Cat's against the world" T-shirt kerfuffle.

Thank God.
 
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You should be so lucky. Just my last post dealing with the hazing train crash. From now on I will only post about the actual team performance/ability to compete on the field. Clunky language though - have made it clearer hopefully.....
You see he suckered you into defying your own declaration…pure brilliance.
 
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My opinion is that the firing was a “rouge” decision made by Schill that should have been backstopped by the BOT. (Gragg was MIA). Schill does not seem to appreciate the role of athletics in a university setting, which is unfortunate but probably not related to his politics.

We know it was not due to performance on the field. Might be tangentially related to some small scandal brought upon the university from that program he was entrusted.
 
This is going to be my last football post concerning Fitz's departure, lawsuits, hazing etc. From now on, just the team and football field performance. I've always been a Fitz fan and think he's a principled leader with some blindspots who should have known more. Salty times.

But there are few things I always wondered about, vis a vis the culture of the university: And how much do these things need to "fit"?

a) the military/navy SEAL/flag waving patriotism: I get how intense training and toughness relate to football. But I've personally felt the flag waving came across gratuitous. Not casting shade on vets, but at the same time that doesn't mean that we need to mention and invoke the military constantly. If we're a service academy, sure. But we're a snobby private school with Alums that run Hollywood. What a juxtaposition! It never really seriously bothered me, but in hindsight I wonder, was that a factor in terms of Fitz's friction with faculty? Or is that a minimum requirement for any football program trying to recruit kids from Texas? I really don't know and would like to hear views.

b) The overt expression of religious beliefs - In our case the Christian kind. Same thing - no shade on Christians including those who like to display their religious beliefs. There seems to have been a lot of religiously expressive displays from our players over the years. Not sure if this is just how all of America is, how all of collegiate athletics is, or if there's a higher concentration of that within our football team? To my untrained eye, I've always felt we had more of those things on display versus most other football programs.

All taken together, I can see how the left-leaning faculty (who may not be terribly tolerant) would wonder why they have this NASCAR-type character coaching religious players - as the most visible face of the university. I would personally feel that any faculty with those views are petty - but knowing their type, it wouldn't surprise me. I've never been a fan of all the performative patriotism - but no need to hate on the guy if that's what he and the team want to express.

Not really taking sides on this - but am eager to hear any observations on the subcultural vibes of the program and whether they are unique or different versus other teams. It's also a question of how a coach "brand" might fit with NU in the future. For example, a David Shaw type I can see being a match with the reality of the NU faculty and alumni base. That doesn't mean we'd win with him.

Still, I do fear that there may be a cultural faultline that could make it hard to find our footing - most recently reflected in the "Cat's against the world" T-shirt kerfuffle.

I think the questions you asked are on target. My daughter is about to start her senior year (Thank God!) and I have sat thru some stuff that made my eyes roll so far back in my head I've never fully recovered...

Yes the faculty's jealousy of Fitzgerald, in those quarters where it existed, would be related to the image he projects... Strong, positive, male, charismatic, proud, flag-waving, family-oriented, team-oriented, traditional. I never thought Fitzgerald was religious, but of course, any hint of that would cause apoplexy in certain quarters.

There are other, more perverse attitudes, but if I comment on them the thread will be shut down or my post will disappear.
 
I don’t think that patriotism or religion had anything to do with Fitz’ firing. Honoring veterans and featuring the American flag at games happens all over the country. I am guessing that some other programs use Navy Seals or Seal techniques as part of summer practice. I have not noticed any overt references to religion at home games. I have noticed that recruits all over the country often include references to their God as they express gratitude for the opportunity to play at their school of choice.

My opinion is that the firing was a “rouge” decision made by Schill that should have been backstopped by the BOT. (Gragg was MIA). Schill does not seem to appreciate the role of athletics in a university setting, which is unfortunate but probably not related to his politics.
I think you mean ‘rogue’ decision, unless you mean that Schill is trying to ‘save face’.
 
One fact many folks don't seem to remember is that the military entwinement with football pageantry is a fairly new phenomenon. It was in the '80s or maybe '90s that the military started spending money to get flag ceremonies and flyovers and such included in NFL games. I'm pretty sure some of my relatives now believe the "National" part means the NFL is a government entity and football is one of those constitutional rights.
 
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I think you mean ‘rogue’ decision, unless you mean that Schill is trying to ‘save face’.
I think the fact that he put "rouge" in quotes suggests that the misspelling was intentional, although I'm not exactly sure what joke he was making.

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One fact many folks don't seem to remember is that the military entwinement with football pageantry is a fairly new phenomenon. It was in the '80s or maybe '90s that the military started spending money to get flag ceremonies and flyovers and such included in NFL games. I'm pretty sure some of my relatives now believe the "National" part means the NFL is a government entity and football is one of those constitutional rights.
Why do you hate America? (Joking)
 
Fitz is a class act
Overt patriotism.
One and eleven

Navy SEAL training
Unique team bonding methods
For four and twenty
 
Good grief. Is the Left leaning NU faculty and Evanston citizenry really feeling threatened by a subculture that believes in Christian principles and occasionally expresses them in innocuous ways? It’s not like Fitz and the players are protesting abortion rights at halftime.

No one's has expressed feeling threatened by flag-waving or religion in football -- not faculty, not Evanston residents -- and I have no idea how this relates to Fitz's firing. It's a red herring. Fitz was fired for lack of institutional control over his team's behavior. No one, except perhaps the whistleblower, was out to get Fitz and trying to suggest that the faculty and/or Evanstonians were involved in his firing is just stupid. It was a decision made by Schill and the BoTs. The faculty letter in support of more oversight of the athletic department is just common sense, especially given the recent history of poor decision-making by the athletic department.
 
No one's has expressed feeling threatened by flag-waving or religion in football -- not faculty, not Evanston residents -- and I have no idea how this relates to Fitz's firing. It's a red herring. Fitz was fired for lack of institutional control over his team's behavior. No one, except perhaps the whistleblower, was out to get Fitz and trying to suggest that the faculty and/or Evanstonians were involved in his firing is just stupid. It was a decision made by Schill and the BoTs. The faculty letter in support of more oversight of the athletic department is just common sense, especially given the recent history of poor decision-making by the athletic department.
Its interesting that you would state things like that so absolutely.
Maybe you haven't been on campus in a decade or so.
Maybe you haven't really followed the story of how a two week suspension turned into termination for cause.
Maybe you missed the Board of Trustees congratulating the Daily on leaking a story that (theoretically) they would have fact-checked in less than 24 hours....
Maybe you're an idealist and believe that everybody is a good person.

All I know is that you have only a sliver of a chance of being correct.
 
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Good grief. Is the Left leaning NU faculty and Evanston citizenry really feeling threatened by a subculture that believes in Christian principles and occasionally expresses them in innocuous ways? It’s not like Fitz and the players are protesting abortion rights at halftime.
For chrissakes, if you’re gonna protest, at least face the pressbox.






The flag stuff and red white and blue N helmets are tacky 100% of the time, but also I’m 100% sure it had nothing to do with the firing.
 
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This is going to be my last football post concerning Fitz's departure, lawsuits, hazing etc. From now on, just the team and football field performance. I've always been a Fitz fan and think he's a principled leader with some blindspots who should have known more. Salty times.

But there are few things I always wondered about, vis a vis the culture of the university: And how much do these things need to "fit"?

a) the military/navy SEAL/flag waving patriotism: I get how intense training and toughness relate to football. But I've personally felt the flag waving came across gratuitous. Not casting shade on vets, but at the same time that doesn't mean that we need to mention and invoke the military constantly. If we're a service academy, sure. But we're a snobby private school with Alums that run Hollywood. What a juxtaposition! It never really seriously bothered me, but in hindsight I wonder, was that a factor in terms of Fitz's friction with faculty? Or is that a minimum requirement for any football program trying to recruit kids from Texas? I really don't know and would like to hear views.

b) The overt expression of religious beliefs - In our case the Christian kind. Same thing - no shade on Christians including those who like to display their religious beliefs. There seems to have been a lot of religiously expressive displays from our players over the years. Not sure if this is just how all of America is, how all of collegiate athletics is, or if there's a higher concentration of that within our football team? To my untrained eye, I've always felt we had more of those things on display versus most other football programs.

All taken together, I can see how the left-leaning faculty (who may not be terribly tolerant) would wonder why they have this NASCAR-type character coaching religious players - as the most visible face of the university. I would personally feel that any faculty with those views are petty - but knowing their type, it wouldn't surprise me. I've never been a fan of all the performative patriotism - but no need to hate on the guy if that's what he and the team want to express.

Not really taking sides on this - but am eager to hear any observations on the subcultural vibes of the program and whether they are unique or different versus other teams. It's also a question of how a coach "brand" might fit with NU in the future. For example, a David Shaw type I can see being a match with the reality of the NU faculty and alumni base. That doesn't mean we'd win with him.

Still, I do fear that there may be a cultural faultline that could make it hard to find our footing - most recently reflected in the "Cat's against the world" T-shirt kerfuffle.
If you mean that sports and FB in particular tend to be and attract people that tend to have more conservative values and views than much of the rest of NU, yes. And would that group of like to see the figurehead of that represents everything they hate taken down? Again yes. Did they do it themselves, maybe not but they sure pilled on leading to what happened
 
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You should be so lucky. Just my last post dealing with the hazing train crash. From now on I will only post about the actual team performance/ability to compete on the field. Clunky language though - have made it clearer hopefully.....
Ever heard of a joke?
 
Its interesting that you would state things like that so absolutely.
Maybe you haven't been on campus in a decade or so.
Maybe you haven't really followed the story of how a two week suspension turned into termination for cause.
Maybe you missed the Board of Trustees congratulating the Daily on leaking a story that (theoretically) they would have fact-checked in less than 24 hours....
Maybe you're an idealist and believe that everybody is a good person.

All I know is that you have only a sliver of a chance of being correct.
Sure he/she has even a sliver ??
 
Thanks all for your thoughts. Funny how many people answered a question I didn't ask (and didn't intend to ask) about whether faculty hostilities played a role in Fitz's firing. I personally doubt it. Still, it may complicate finding a good replacement, as well as the current players' committment to NU. Schill and Gragg will be trying to please everybody and in the process won't choose a coach for his leadership or ability to win. They are politicians, so they will choose a coach who tries to please everyone.
 
Thanks all for your thoughts. Funny how many people answered a question I didn't ask (and didn't intend to ask) about whether faculty hostilities played a role in Fitz's firing. I personally doubt it. Still, it may complicate finding a good replacement, as well as the current players' committment to NU. Schill and Gragg will be trying to please everybody and in the process won't choose a coach for his leadership or ability to win. They are politicians, so they will choose a coach who tries to please everyone.
A coach that pleases everyone doesn’t exist especially for good ole NU.
 
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Its interesting that you would state things like that so absolutely.
Maybe you haven't been on campus in a decade or so.
Maybe you haven't really followed the story of how a two week suspension turned into termination for cause.
Maybe you missed the Board of Trustees congratulating the Daily on leaking a story that (theoretically) they would have fact-checked in less than 24 hours....
Maybe you're an idealist and believe that everybody is a good person.

All I know is that you have only a sliver of a chance of being correct.
He ain’t coming back
 
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