While I was only able to listen to this game on WGN, it sure sounded like Clayton played very well. For those of you who saw the game in person or on TV, how good did he look? From Turk's assessment it appears as if he really played well on a very windy day.
Thorson
- Thread starter mybrotha
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He played well. He didn't look like an elite Big Ten QB, but he did look like he belong in the Big Ten.
He is on his way. The improvement this kid is showing from week to week is remarkable considering how little game experience he still has at the position. McCall has done a fantastic job bringing him and the whole offense along. I am really excited to see what he does next. I am not one prone to hyperbole, but if this kid stays healthy and we continue to recruit talent around him, we could have a potential NFL 1st round pick and Heisman Trophy candidate on our hands in 2-3 years. My kids got a good laugh when I made this prediction at the dinner table last night but I really think it is possible.
His numbers would have been more impressive if the refs hadn't overruled the Vault TD catch. That was a beautiful throw into the wind. The guy has a strong arm and that one had a nice touch on it.
Perhaps you qualify for access to the BTN2GO. If yes, you may be able to watch the entire archived game.
I think it was a bad call reversal. Nonetheless, if the call stands, it would have been a one-handed circus catch that 99 out of 100 times is NOT made. It would just have been Vaults acrobatics turning what normally would have been an incomplete pass into a fabulous catch. All the credit would have gone to the pass catcher. No QB can count of his targets to make that sort of catch.
Of course, this is moot, since the call was reversed.
Every game there are "near misses" one way or another, especially concerning pass catches near the lines or the ground.
Felis: Would you describe yourself as a "glass half empty" kind of guy?
Although that was almost as well placed as you could possibly ask. The coverage was very good so he couldn't afford to underthrow it at all. Vault is very short, so a typical receiver who is 6'2"-6'3" may have been able to stretch out and make the catch without going horizontal. That's an awfully tough throw to make to a short receiver and he nailed it. Should not have been overturned. If that's overturned then the last Ball State TD at the back of the end zone absolutely should have been overturned.
All I am saying is that whether it was coverage, the receiver physique or whatever, it was an extremely low percentage pass. If we/CT need that sort of one-handed circus catch to be made with any non-negligible degree of frequency in order to win games were are in deep trouble...folks don't deceive yourselves, that catch, if counted (and it should have) would have been the one in 100(0) occasions where it would't fall incomplete....the other 99(9) is an incomplete pass...which it eventually was.
You just might get the last laugh. See if your kids change their minds in Ann Arbor. I hear you have pretty good seats.
He reminds me a lot of Kafka (obviously a higher top end speed), anyone else?
Obviously, he is far ahead of where kafka was as a RD frosh
Obviously, he is far ahead of where kafka was as a RD frosh
That was a perfect ball thrown to a fast, versatile athlete who had a good matchup. Not sure why anyone would fault Thorson on that play.
I'd say he's where Kafka was as a Junior. Thinking about Minn and OSU in 2008 specifically. The growth each week is incredible and a tip of the cap to McCall and the kid himself who is clearly putting in a ton of work.
I finally got to see the game on the BTN replay last night. From watching that, I believe that Michigan has to now game plan him as a legitimate dual threat. His running decisions were much improved compared to the last four weeks. It looked like the coaches took the governor off and told him to go for it.
His passing looked much improved as well but it looked as if his first read was open a lot.
Thorson is coming along, but at the same time - the past 2 weeks (in particular), the O-line has given him a very nice pocket, the run game is carrying the load (allowing for play-action) and the receivers are getting some separation.
The true test will be when 2 or 3 of those things are taken away (in that case, don't expect much from Thorson aside from not turning the ball over).
The true test will be when 2 or 3 of those things are taken away (in that case, don't expect much from Thorson aside from not turning the ball over).
So you're saying that if his line doesn't block well, his running backs don't get any yardage, and his receivers don't get open, Thorson won't be able to win a game single handily? Very insightful analysis! Name me a QB to ever play the game that could under those circumsatnces?
Comparing him to kafka is going to cease...soon. Ive never seen kafka make some of those throws CT has made.
He is looking good and if he continues to play this well, we will b comparing him to qbs who all of college football know.
I think they ought to have to make the tape(s) on which the decision is made, public. No way he didn't make that catch. It was brilliant.
The announcers were stunned as well. Definitely agree with your point since what we saw on TV certainly did not merit the reversal. Glad Thorson went on to make a touchdown on that drive anyway and of course eating up the additional clock to do it probably helped us toward the goal of getting a shut out. Mostly disappointed for Vault's sake and the Wildcats being robbed of a highlight reel play that probably would have been included in the recaps of our win.
Corbi, you make a good point. It IS rare to find a QB like that. I’ve only been able to think of two, one retired and one active, during the last 20+ years. In what is a bizarre coincidence, they BOTH have played in Green Bay.
While it seems pretty elementary, there were more than a few here who had no problem not taking those things into account and bagging on a certain recent NU QB.
We don't have to too far back in the history of the 'Cats...
Persa didn't have much help around him (even on the other side of the ball) and yet, due to his playmaking abilities, the 'Cats won a # of games they wouldn't have w/ a less talented QB.
And once Siemian got healthy (and McCall finally decided to move the pocket), the 'Cats should have beaten UM (-9 yds rushing) or the shootout over the Illini in 2013 (2.9 ypc w/ Siemian having the highest ypc avg.).
Wouldn't expect Thorson to do the same as he is still a bit raw, but by the time he's a JR, he should be able to make up for it if say the O-line and running game take a step back.
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Give it up. Thorson is 5-0 with essentially the same surrounding cast that went 5-7 last year. The team is much improved across the board but the success we are experiencing is very much a function of having a QB that fits the system we run. No knock on Trevor. He was a good college QB but he was not the ideal QB for McCall's offense.
^ Are you even serious? lol
Hmmm - the D-line is rotating 10 players - didn't happen last year and the secondary might be the best it's ever been.
For 2015 thus far in the B1G -
Scoring O - 11th
Scoring D - 1st
Rushing O - 1st
Rushing D - 5th
Pass O - 14th
Pass D - 2nd
Kickoff returns - 1st
Punt returns - 6th
Punting - 4th
Sacks against - 3rd
Penalties - 1st
For 2014
Scoring O - 12th (not much diff.)
Scoring D - 7th (pretty sig improvement)
Rushing O - 11th (huge improvement)
Rushing D - 7th
Pass O - 8th
Pass D - 8th
Kickoff returns - 10th (huge improvement)
Punt returns - 2nd (drop)
Punting - 14th (huge improvement)
Sacks against - 11th (huge improvement)
Penalties - 6th (improvement)
So you tell me where was that D in 2014 that limited Stanford to 6 pts, Duke to 10 and Minny to zip?
You know, that D that gave up 31 pts to Cal, 23 to NIU and 17 to Minny?
And where was that return game which gave the 'Cats a score against Duke and goal to go against Minny? (Last year it was the 'Cats that gave up a crucial score in the return game against Minny).
Where was the running game that is churning 250 yd/game? Last year, it wasn't even 140 yds/game.
Last season, the NU passing game was relied upon too many times to convert on 3rd down and due to the rather lackluster rushing game, too many times we saw 3rd and long.
This season, the 'Cats have converted a good bit more 3rd down via the run and have seen a lot more 3rd and short situations.
Furthermore, we have seen a really sharp decrease in holding penalties by the O-line (which killed a good no. of drives last year) and the # of dropsies by receivers doesn't even compare to last year.
And let's not forget the rather vanilla play-calling against Cal and NIU (guess Fitz and McCall wanted to save the good stuff for the conf.), not to mention the repeated attempts at trying to convert 3rd and short w/ a power set that more often than not got stuffed (just after a few times of that, was calling for the QB sneak and it took a few more games before McCall got w/ the program - and then he got overly reliant on that as is his tendency).
Against Stanford and Duke - Ftz and McCall were willing to open the playbook (guess they learned the hard lesson last season that can't always save the good stuff for conference play).
The same surrounding cast?
Yeah, it wasn't like the 'Cats were down to 37 schollie players (some of whom were playing hurt) by the time of the Illini game.
Gee, I wonder if Prater and Shuler being knocked out of the 2nd half of the NEB game last year had anything to do w/ the passing game going from effective to totally non-effective?
The one positive thing arising out of all the injuries from last season is that so many of the younger players were able to gain game experience (hence, a major reason why the 'Cats are deep at certain positions, esp. on D).
You must not think that Kafka fit into McCall's system then.
Actually when healthy, Siemian fit into McCall's system even better - since he was a more effective weapon as a passer and as a passer on the rolll out/scrambling (not to say that Thorson won't get there some day).
Again, the 4th Q of the UM game and the ND game are prime examples of a dialed-up McCall O (and at that juncture, it was w/ a depleted NU roster).
The option? Thorson has been pretty bad w/ that and while he has some good top speed (for a QB), he's a pretty stiff runner (while maybe not the most graceful runner, I'd say Siemian had more moves).
Aside from a # of called QB runs - McCall has had Thorson pretty much sitting in the pocket (a much better pocket than Siemian had all last season) in the mold of Kafka his SR yr and in fact, Thorson has admitted that he needs to do a better job of staying in the pocket (such as stepping up into the pocket when there is a pass rush).
You must think the Broncos are 4-0 b/c of Manning and not b/c of their elite D and other factors.
You must also think Fitz is BS'ing us when he stated that last season, he couldn't use the best punishment a coach has in his arsenal (the bench) for poor performance/execution due to there being no one else.
Quite different from Fitz announcing how they used all the players they brought down to Durham aside from the back-up QBs and the back-up kicker.
If you really think that the team around Siemian was the same as this year's team - then that's not only sad, but totally not jiving w/ Fitz's statements.
Hmmm - the D-line is rotating 10 players - didn't happen last year and the secondary might be the best it's ever been.
For 2015 thus far in the B1G -
Scoring O - 11th
Scoring D - 1st
Rushing O - 1st
Rushing D - 5th
Pass O - 14th
Pass D - 2nd
Kickoff returns - 1st
Punt returns - 6th
Punting - 4th
Sacks against - 3rd
Penalties - 1st
For 2014
Scoring O - 12th (not much diff.)
Scoring D - 7th (pretty sig improvement)
Rushing O - 11th (huge improvement)
Rushing D - 7th
Pass O - 8th
Pass D - 8th
Kickoff returns - 10th (huge improvement)
Punt returns - 2nd (drop)
Punting - 14th (huge improvement)
Sacks against - 11th (huge improvement)
Penalties - 6th (improvement)
So you tell me where was that D in 2014 that limited Stanford to 6 pts, Duke to 10 and Minny to zip?
You know, that D that gave up 31 pts to Cal, 23 to NIU and 17 to Minny?
And where was that return game which gave the 'Cats a score against Duke and goal to go against Minny? (Last year it was the 'Cats that gave up a crucial score in the return game against Minny).
Where was the running game that is churning 250 yd/game? Last year, it wasn't even 140 yds/game.
Last season, the NU passing game was relied upon too many times to convert on 3rd down and due to the rather lackluster rushing game, too many times we saw 3rd and long.
This season, the 'Cats have converted a good bit more 3rd down via the run and have seen a lot more 3rd and short situations.
Furthermore, we have seen a really sharp decrease in holding penalties by the O-line (which killed a good no. of drives last year) and the # of dropsies by receivers doesn't even compare to last year.
And let's not forget the rather vanilla play-calling against Cal and NIU (guess Fitz and McCall wanted to save the good stuff for the conf.), not to mention the repeated attempts at trying to convert 3rd and short w/ a power set that more often than not got stuffed (just after a few times of that, was calling for the QB sneak and it took a few more games before McCall got w/ the program - and then he got overly reliant on that as is his tendency).
Against Stanford and Duke - Ftz and McCall were willing to open the playbook (guess they learned the hard lesson last season that can't always save the good stuff for conference play).
The same surrounding cast?
Yeah, it wasn't like the 'Cats were down to 37 schollie players (some of whom were playing hurt) by the time of the Illini game.
Gee, I wonder if Prater and Shuler being knocked out of the 2nd half of the NEB game last year had anything to do w/ the passing game going from effective to totally non-effective?
The one positive thing arising out of all the injuries from last season is that so many of the younger players were able to gain game experience (hence, a major reason why the 'Cats are deep at certain positions, esp. on D).
You must not think that Kafka fit into McCall's system then.
Actually when healthy, Siemian fit into McCall's system even better - since he was a more effective weapon as a passer and as a passer on the rolll out/scrambling (not to say that Thorson won't get there some day).
Again, the 4th Q of the UM game and the ND game are prime examples of a dialed-up McCall O (and at that juncture, it was w/ a depleted NU roster).
The option? Thorson has been pretty bad w/ that and while he has some good top speed (for a QB), he's a pretty stiff runner (while maybe not the most graceful runner, I'd say Siemian had more moves).
Aside from a # of called QB runs - McCall has had Thorson pretty much sitting in the pocket (a much better pocket than Siemian had all last season) in the mold of Kafka his SR yr and in fact, Thorson has admitted that he needs to do a better job of staying in the pocket (such as stepping up into the pocket when there is a pass rush).
You must think the Broncos are 4-0 b/c of Manning and not b/c of their elite D and other factors.
You must also think Fitz is BS'ing us when he stated that last season, he couldn't use the best punishment a coach has in his arsenal (the bench) for poor performance/execution due to there being no one else.
Quite different from Fitz announcing how they used all the players they brought down to Durham aside from the back-up QBs and the back-up kicker.
If you really think that the team around Siemian was the same as this year's team - then that's not only sad, but totally not jiving w/ Fitz's statements.
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They didn't see any angles that the public on TV didn't see. I disagreed with the decision to overturn it, as I personally thought there was some movement of the ball but not enough to overturn the call and call it incomplete. However they're human and it's their job to make tough decisions. Luckily, it didn't cost us.
I have to say that CT really showed improvement Saturday and has begun to look like the true starter type that we had hoped for. I'm really excited about this season and hope things continue to improve. It would be great to wake up and see the Cats in the Top 10. I would be super happy to travel back to Pasadena for another Rose Bowl.
I still fear the injury bug and wish we were developing, or even figuring out, the backup QB situation. I don't know who our #2 is and there is nothing to suggest anybody does. I cringed watching CT run the ball at the end of the game. I really wish PF would give a series to ZO or MA each game - if it isn't super tight - and then liberally go to them at the end when it's out of hand. I would like to see them protect CT. Let's also dump the option play - CT is not Persa or Colter. He gets yards and has dangerous legs - but clearly cannot execute that option play.
One of the other pleasant surprises was all the receptions spread around. I wanted to toss my TV out the window when Nagel dropped that pass - but was excited that he caught one the next play when they went right back to him. I hope this is a sign of good things to come.
Feli has a point. That was not as much a great throw as it was a ridiculous catch. Most WR's would miss it, and it would go down as an errant and uncatchable throw. Vault's reeling that catch in (the refs were wrong to overrule it) was one of the most ridiculous catches I've ever seen.
It looked bobely but in no view could you see that it hit the ground. There was no clear view that it hit the ground. They shouldn't have overturned it based on how I understand the rule.
Check the replay from about 0:34-0:36, when he goes to the ground the ball appears to move in his hands when the nose of the ball hits the ground. I'm not saying that looked like enough to overturn it, but that's what they went with.
As much as we all hated that call, it could've been a blessing in disguised. Minnesota had the wind. Both Kill and Fitz said that the first drive in the 3rd quarter taking 8:47 meant a lot in the game. That play happened with 11:45 left meaning 3:15 was gone. After that we ran 10 more plays and took 5:32 off the clock keeping the ball from Minnesota and still giving us 3 points. Live I would've taken the touchdown, but Minnesota's defense was getting knocked back at the end of the game. Minnesota being tired after an 18 play drive probably had a lot to do with that.
Meaning that the laws of physics, gravity and such dictating that after CT released it, that was right where it had to be. That said, CT could have put a little better touch or chose a different option on that play.
Regardless, CT had a much improved game and incompletions are to be expected. This one most certainly does not fall on the back of the underperforming WR corp.
Not sure. While the ball clearly moves as Vault hits the ground, I don't see how one could see clear evidence that the ball hit the ground -- could very well have bounced off Vault's hand/wrist and leg, etc.
The way Minnesota's offense was going at that point, I don't think it would have mattered. I had a strangely comfortable feeling when we went up 10-0, knowing it was going to be extremely difficult for the Gophers to score twice.
