"worst defeat ever" to a top 5 Collins win?

[haywood jahblowme]

given the team this year is this a top 5 win?

1. round 1 NCAA against Vanderbilt
2. Taphorn to pardon against Michigan
3. 1st B1G win vs Illinois
4. at Wisconsin without lindsey
5. 2019 vs Providence ?

 

[NUera]

One of my favorite parts of the evening was when the BTN reminded us all that no Collins team has ever been ranked lower than, like, 38th defensively.

Yes, he’s run off too many players (some of whom could probably have helped), but he’s brought in talent and we defend better under him than essentially any NU team in decades. I don’t buy that he can’t develop players - Lindsey, Law, Pardon (hell, even Lumpkin) all got better under him. The man’s got deficiencies but the negativity last week was overboard.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

The man’s got deficiencies but the negativity last week was overboard.

A lot of that negativity came from people that didn’t like him from day 1. Notice they don’t post much following good things.

 

[Pukecat]

A lot of that negativity came from people that didn’t like him from day 1. Notice they don’t post much following good things.

Ever notice that his apologists come on here tooting Collins' horn only when things are good?

 

[Pukecat]

One of my favorite parts of the evening was when the BTN reminded us all that no Collins team has ever been ranked lower than, like, 38th defensively.

Yes, he’s run off too many players (some of whom could probably have helped), but he’s brought in talent and we defend better under him than essentially any NU team in decades. I don’t buy that he can’t develop players - Lindsey, Law, Pardon (hell, even Lumpkin) all got better under him. The man’s got deficiencies but the negativity last week was overboard.

Credit where credit's due, Collins had his team ready to play last night when it would have been easy to just bury their heads and go through the motions of s rebuilding season. I give him a lot of credit for turning it around. Now he has to keep it going with a young group game to game.

 

[olshin]

A lot of that negativity came from people that didn’t like him from day 1. Notice they don’t post much following good things.

A lot of the negativity has built up over the last two years and hit its head in the worst loss this program has had in 30 years.

Yesterday was great. I don't know if winning is repeatable when you get hammered so badly on the offensive glass. But anyone should appreciate the resilience and way they fought after an embarrassing game. We beat a legit NCAA Tournament caliber team and I'll admit I didn't think that was possible this year.

 

[Kat burglar]

I actually think this team will be surprising. I think we will lose some games we should win and win some games against much better teams. Kind of like Indiana last year when Falzon went off, and Nebraska 4 years ago when Pardon went off, I think that some of these guys are going to go off and blow a game wide open. I think it will be streaky, not consistent, but will be better than most expect.

Next year should be mid-Big 10

I think it is "Young" team syndrome

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Ever notice that his apologists come on here tooting Collins' horn only when things are good?

Does “apologist” = “happy when we win”

Then I guess I’m an apologist.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Ever notice that his apologists come on here tooting Collins' horn only when things are good?

i guess the funny thing about is apologists are basically optimists. so they post good when its bad and post good when its good.

the others - post bad when its bad and then when its good *poof* *crickets* *door swinging sound*

 

[IGNORE]

Didn’t get to see the game as I’m at a conference in FL, but sounds like a quality and causes one to scratch their head about the lost to that Church Youth Program BB team last week.

I still think CCC should be a hot seat coach. He isn’t. But the only accomplishment dates back years ago with half a team from the prior regime.

Coaching involves several components, all equally important and justifying the ridiculous salary:

• Identifying true talent
• Recruiting and signing said talent
• Developing that talent in college talent
• Retaining the talent
• Game planning
• In game coaching

CCC excels in some of the above but clearing is missing on either the identifying or developing part by in large. The majority of recruits have not developed into quality B1G, it has been more the exception.

His game planning and in game coach also appears suspect and possibly a reflection of stubbornness more than anything.

At any rate, absent some measureable success in the B1G followed by post season appearances, CCC should be recognized as another stepping stone coach and replaced in less than 13 years.

So let’s see how these next two seasons play out since they should define the length of his own leash.

 

[DaCat]

Does “apologist” = “happy when we win”

Then I guess I’m an apologist.

I want to apologize for being happy over our win.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

But the only accomplishment dates back years ago with half a team from the prior regime.

You can have your opinion, but you're not allowed to make up your own facts. The "only" accomplishment, which happens to be the greatest accomplishment in modern NU basketball history, included two players who were recruited by the previous regime and zero who were developed by it. Lumpkin was a valuable piece, but he never played for Carmody and he was only 20% (not half) of the starting line-up. Taphorn was a valuable piece off the bench, but he was not half of the bench, and like Lumpkin, he never played for Carmody.

 

[IGNORE]

But the only accomplishment dates back years ago with half a team from the prior regime.

You can have your opinion, but you're not allowed to make up your own facts. The "only" accomplishment, which happens to be the greatest accomplishment in modern NU basketball history, included two players who were recruited by the previous regime and zero who were developed by it. Lumpkin was a valuable piece, but he never played for Carmody and he was only 20% (not half) of the starting line-up. Taphorn was a valuable piece off the bench, but he was not half of the bench, and like Lumpkin, he never played for Carmody.

Ok - simple questions - what has CCC accomplished since then with his own players in every used scholarship spot? What percentage of CCC recruited players were developed into legit B1G quality rotation worthy players?

 

[PURPLECAT88]

Those aren't simple questions. Those are rhetorical points. And they're valid. Collins has had all sorts of issues since the Allstate Arena sucked the life out of the program, and it's on him to get the team back to where it was in 2016-17. It just lessens your point when you get so caught up in the fight that you lose track of reality.

 

[mickbula]

Somebody at work told me Providence is a potential tourney team this year?? Is this true? Either way, it was fun to watch and I think CC and bbteam will surprise a lot of teams/people this year. We will be getting better all through the season!

 

[Medill90]

Somebody at work told me Providence is a potential tourney team this year?? Is this true? Either way, it was fun to watch and I think CC and bbteam will surprise a lot of teams/people this year. We will be getting better all through the season!

Providence is currently 29th in KenPom, not sure what they were before the game.

 

[CappyNU]

Providence is currently 29th in KenPom, not sure what they were before the game.

19th coming into the game.

 

[willycat]

Those aren't simple questions. Those are rhetorical points. And they're valid. Collins has had all sorts of issues since the Allstate Arena sucked the life out of the program, and it's on him to get the team back to where it was in 2016-17. It just lessens your point when you get so caught up in the fight that you lose track of reality.

I just knew they should have played those games at ETHS.

 

[Medill90]

Providence is currently 29th in KenPom, not sure what they were before the game.

They had one, maybe two guys would played last night that were not 4* recruits. Very talented, very senior team.

 

[Catreporter]

I still think CCC should be a hot seat coach. He isn’t. But the only accomplishment dates back years ago with half a team from the prior regime.

There were only two players left over from Carmody on that NCAA team and that season removed a huge STIGMA from our team and he just got the new facilities he needed so no, he should NOT be on the hot seat.

 

[Styre]

A non-conference November win in what will still likely be a lost season is not in the top 5 in Collins' tenure, no. But it was still a fun, exciting game to attend.

It might be one of the most memorable, at least, just not one of the best.

 

[CappyNU]

Per Bart Torvik's site, we've had the following Quad 1-A wins in Collins' tenure:

1/29/14 - Drew Crawford single-handedly leads the 'Cats to victory in Madison for the first win in the Kohl Center
3/1/17 - The Pass
2/6/18 - Michigan's last regular-season loss for the next 22 games

and the following Quad 1 wins:

2/1/14 - Win at the Barn over the Gophers
2/15/15 - Win at home over Iowa in OT to break 10-game losing streak
1/12/16 - BMac destroys Badgers at home
11/28/16 - B1G/ACC challenge victory over Wake Forest
12/17/16 - Win over Archie Miller's wife at the UC
2/12/17 - Another win in Madison, without Lindsey
3/10/17 - "Neutral" site victory over MD in B1G tourney
3/16/17 - The tourney win
11/13/19 - Last night

Pick a top 5 out of those 12, I'd go with The Pass, the Tourney win, the first Madison victory, the B1G tourney win, and the 2nd Madison win in some order as my top 5.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Per Bart Torvik's site, we've had the following Quad 1-A wins in Collins' tenure:

1/29/14 - Drew Crawford single-handedly leads the 'Cats to victory in Madison for the first win in the Kohl Center
3/1/17 - The Pass
2/6/18 - Michigan's last regular-season loss for the next 22 games

and the following Quad 1 wins:

2/1/14 - Win at the Barn over the Gophers
2/15/15 - Win at home over Iowa in OT to break 10-game losing streak
1/12/16 - BMac destroys Badgers at home
11/28/16 - B1G/ACC challenge victory over Wake Forest
12/17/16 - Win over Archie Miller's wife at the UC
2/12/17 - Another win in Madison, without Lindsey
3/10/17 - "Neutral" site victory over MD in B1G tourney
3/16/17 - The tourney win
11/13/19 - Last night

Pick a top 5 out of those 12, I'd go with The Pass, the Tourney win, the first Madison victory, the B1G tourney win, and the 2nd Madison win in some order as my top 5.

I would personally throw the Purdue game in there that went into triple overtime where all our centers had fouled out and Sanjay was playing defense against their dominate 7 foot center. It was a remarkable, patchwork, duct-tape win.

 

[FeralFelidae]

One of my favorite parts of the evening was when the BTN reminded us all that no Collins team has ever been ranked lower than, like, 38th defensively.

Yes, he’s run off too many players (some of whom could probably have helped), but he’s brought in talent and we defend better under him than essentially any NU team in decades. I don’t buy that he can’t develop players - Lindsey, Law, Pardon (hell, even Lumpkin) all got better under him. The man’s got deficiencies but the negativity last week was overboard.

Agree completely.

 

[JournCat]

Per Bart Torvik's site, we've had the following Quad 1-A wins in Collins' tenure:

1/29/14 - Drew Crawford single-handedly leads the 'Cats to victory in Madison for the first win in the Kohl Center
3/1/17 - The Pass
2/6/18 - Michigan's last regular-season loss for the next 22 games

and the following Quad 1 wins:

2/1/14 - Win at the Barn over the Gophers
2/15/15 - Win at home over Iowa in OT to break 10-game losing streak
1/12/16 - BMac destroys Badgers at home
11/28/16 - B1G/ACC challenge victory over Wake Forest
12/17/16 - Win over Archie Miller's wife at the UC
2/12/17 - Another win in Madison, without Lindsey
3/10/17 - "Neutral" site victory over MD in B1G tourney
3/16/17 - The tourney win
11/13/19 - Last night

Pick a top 5 out of those 12, I'd go with The Pass, the Tourney win, the first Madison victory, the B1G tourney win, and the 2nd Madison win in some order as my top 5.

Would pick exactly those five. This one felt more like the Doug Collins Game (the win over Iowa to snap a losing streak), which had a similar train wreck vibe at times. Very, very fun to watch though.

 

[hdhntr1]

A lot of the negativity has built up over the last two years and hit its head in the worst loss this program has had in 30 years.

Yesterday was great. I don't know if winning is repeatable when you get hammered so badly on the offensive glass. But anyone should appreciate the resilience and way they fought after an embarrassing game. We beat a legit NCAA Tournament caliber team and I'll admit I didn't think that was possible this year.

Most of that is that they missed so many shots. 50 misses is a ton. Seemed worse because on a couple possessions, they had multiple grabs. While 20 is too high, it is not as bad as it seems. By contrast we had something like 24 misses and got 8 Offensive boards. Basically we rebounded 33% of our misses and they got 40% of theirs. We actually out rebounded them overall.

 

[Secho99]

Didn’t get to see the game as I’m at a conference in FL, but sounds like a quality and causes one to scratch their head about the lost to that Church Youth Program BB team last week.

I still think CCC should be a hot seat coach. He isn’t. But the only accomplishment dates back years ago with half a team from the prior regime.

Coaching involves several components, all equally important and justifying the ridiculous salary:

• Identifying true talent
• Recruiting and signing said talent
• Developing that talent in college talent
• Retaining the talent
• Game planning
• In game coaching

CCC excels in some of the above but clearing is missing on either the identifying or developing part by in large. The majority of recruits have not developed into quality B1G, it has been more the exception.

His game planning and in game coach also appears suspect and possibly a reflection of stubbornness more than anything.

At any rate, absent some measureable success in the B1G followed by post season appearances, CCC should be recognized as another stepping stone coach and replaced in less than 13 years.

So let’s see how these next two seasons play out since they should define the length of his own leash.

I actually like the perspective and brutal honesty you bring to this board, and appreciate discussions about the direction of the program.

That said, isn't it nice every once in a while to just enjoy when your team wins? Not everything has to be about some larger point all the time, sometimes it's fun to just watch a game and root for your guys and be happy when they perform well, especially after how poorly it went last week. There might not be all that many of these this year. There's a lot of time to talk about "what it all means."

If you can't get out of the big picture headspace on occasion and enjoy each (literal) victory along the way, what's the point of being a fan?

 

[go cats go]

But the only accomplishment dates back years ago with half a team from the prior regime.

You can have your opinion, but you're not allowed to make up your own facts. The "only" accomplishment, which happens to be the greatest accomplishment in modern NU basketball history, included two players who were recruited by the previous regime and zero who were developed by it. Lumpkin was a valuable piece, but he never played for Carmody and he was only 20% (not half) of the starting line-up. Taphorn was a valuable piece off the bench, but he was not half of the bench, and like Lumpkin, he never played for Carmody.

It's not a big thing...but if you are going to harp on facts, you should have your own facts straight:

Sanjay Lumpkin actually did play for Carmody one season. He played in 4 games as a true freshman under Bill Carmody in 2012-13. Carmody didn't plan to redshirt Sanjay, but this is what happened after an injury to his right wrist and a bout with mono.

Sanjay then started every game as a redshirt freshman in Chris Collins' first season as coach in 2013-14.

 

[NJCat]

Didn’t get to see the game as I’m at a conference in FL, but sounds like a quality and causes one to scratch their head about the lost to that Church Youth Program BB team last week.

I still think CCC should be a hot seat coach. He isn’t. But the only accomplishment dates back years ago with half a team from the prior regime.

Coaching involves several components, all equally important and justifying the ridiculous salary:

• Identifying true talent
• Recruiting and signing said talent
• Developing that talent in college talent
• Retaining the talent
• Game planning
• In game coaching

CCC excels in some of the above but clearing is missing on either the identifying or developing part by in large. The majority of recruits have not developed into quality B1G, it has been more the exception.

His game planning and in game coach also appears suspect and possibly a reflection of stubbornness more than anything.

At any rate, absent some measureable success in the B1G followed by post season appearances, CCC should be recognized as another stepping stone coach and replaced in less than 13 years.

So let’s see how these next two seasons play out since they should define the length of his own leash.

I stopped reading when you wrote that you didn't see the game.

Did I miss anything?

 

[olshin]

Most of that is that they missed so many shots. 50 misses is a ton. Seemed worse because on a couple possessions, they had multiple grabs. While 20 is too high, it is not as bad as it seems. By contrast we had something like 24 misses and got 8 Offensive boards. Basically we rebounded 33% of our misses and they got 40% of theirs. We actually out rebounded them overall.

Did they have so many ORs because of the missed shots .... or did they miss so many shots because they had so many more opportunities. Regardless, great win. Let's see if they're more like Game 1 Cats or Game 2 Cats.

 

[NJCat]

Did they have so many ORs because of the missed shots .... or did they miss so many shots because they had so many more opportunities. Regardless, great win. Let's see if they're more like Game 1 Cats or Game 2 Cats.

They shot a TON of 3's. Many of the ORs were off a long missed 3. Katz was critical of their shot selection saying they should not be taking so many 3's given that they aren't great outside shooters.

 

[NUera]

CCC excels in some of the above but clearing is missing on either the identifying or developing part by in large.

I actually think he’s pretty good at identifying talent and 50/50 on developing. Retaining is a big problem and in-game adjustments needs work. But let’s be real... I don’t care that he was an assistant at Duke. He’s still a first-time coach. And let’s not forget how god-awful PF was for the first few years after RW passed. But yes, the next few years will tell.

 

[NJCat]

I actually think he’s pretty good at identifying talent and 50/50 on developing. Retaining is a big problem and in-game adjustments needs work. But let’s be real... I don’t care that he was an assistant at Duke. He’s still a first-time coach. And let’s not forget how god-awful PF was for the first few years after RW passed. But yes, the next few years will tell.

Couple of points:

- He's a seventh-time coach, in his seventh season. Expectation are much higher now than years ago.
- Fitz was 31 when he took over and had never been even a coordinator. Collins was the right hand man for the best coach in the history of NCAA hoops for 13 years. Apples-to-bananas comparison.

 

[IGNORE]

I actually like the perspective and brutal honesty you bring to this board, and appreciate discussions about the direction of the program.

That said, isn't it nice every once in a while to just enjoy when your team wins? Not everything has to be about some larger point all the time, sometimes it's fun to just watch a game and root for your guys and be happy when they perform well, especially after how poorly it went last week. There might not be all that many of these this year. There's a lot of time to talk about "what it all means."

If you can't get out of the big picture headspace on occasion and enjoy each (literal) victory along the way, what's the point of being a fan?

Like I prefaced, I didn’t get to see the game. And I travelled to see them during 2016-7. The wins were great and the losses tough.

But I have had questions about the staff following the mass exodus. Then after the decommit. And losing to a junior choir team was a big deal to me.

I have watched the FB put lipstick on that pig offense for years with the D carrying the load and providing coverage for a variety of offensive coaches. So I’m leary of the Pyrrhic victory.

Here we are with glaring issues including two empty schollies and a host of well performing transfers. And we won game we were supposed to lose after getting beat by a grammar school team. So I say, stay grounded and let’s see how a few more games play out before declaring the crisis over.

(Any time I’m watching a game, I’m rooting for NU or I wouldn’t be watching. My time is my most valuable and limited asset so I try not to waste it.)

 

[phatcat]

I actually think he’s pretty good at identifying talent and 50/50 on developing. Retaining is a big problem and in-game adjustments needs work. But let’s be real... I don’t care that he was an assistant at Duke. He’s still a first-time coach. And let’s not forget how god-awful PF was for the first few years after RW passed. But yes, the next few years will tell.

Hmm...not sure. If you mean "the first year" then ok, and considering the circumstances, he gets a pass, and even won two of 3 B1G games at EOY. Second year they broke even and third year they were 9-4 with an OT loss to a legit Missouri team in their bowl.

Speaking of Missouri, since the tourney year and subsequent collapse, Collins will have to 'show me'. That said, I was flabbergasted that they won the other night to any team with a pulse. I was concerned that this might be the first year where we lose every B1G game in FB and BB same year. Still might happen.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

It's not a big thing...but if you are going to harp on facts, you should have your own facts straight:

Sanjay Lumpkin actually did play for Carmody one season. He played in 4 games as a true freshman under Bill Carmody in 2012-13. Carmody didn't plan to redshirt Sanjay, but this is what happened after an injury to his right wrist and a bout with mono.

Sanjay then started every game as a redshirt freshman in Chris Collins' first season as coach in 2013-14.

Thanks. I knew he redshirted. I forgot about the four games. The point still stands.

 

[mekCat]

Like I prefaced, I didn’t get to see the game. And I travelled to see them during 2016-7. The wins were great and the losses tough.

But I have had questions about the staff following the mass exodus. Then after the decommit. And losing to a junior choir team was a big deal to me.

(Any time I’m watching a game, I’m rooting for NU or I wouldn’t be watching. My time is my most valuable and limited asset so I try not to waste it.)

HOLD ON now! I conducted a junior choir for 20 years, and they were excellent. Could outsing half the adult choirs around here. Maybe more.

 

[Catreporter]

This WAS a big win because of its timing, coming after a deflating loss.

 

[Mr Wickerpark]

Let us all credit Collins and the team with beating a mediocre top conference team. I doubt Providence is good enough to go dancing this year but it was a quality win for a NIT bubble team like NU.

But the bottom line is that our program is still trying to get back up to the Carmody/Shurna years of winning 7-9 bigten games a year.

 

[NJCat]

Let us all credit Collins and the team with beating a mediocre top conference team. I doubt Providence is good enough to go dancing this year but it was a quality win for a NIT bubble team like NU.

But the bottom line is that our program is still trying to get back up to the Carmody/Shurna years of winning 7-9 bigten games a year.

NU is not an NIT bubble team this season. Not even close.