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[thewildcat2011]

I appreciate your response, rather deciding to just delete my post.

Sigh. . .

However your statement quoted, is not even close to what I assumed is the number of AR 15s owned per FOID card holder. I assumed ownership of AR 15s was somewhere between .625 AR 15s per FOID, to .83 AR15s per FOID, NOT 1 to 1. Let's assume that half of FOID card holders own an AR 15. That's still over a million AR 15s in Illinois, which leaves about 936,000 unregistered AR 15s. The state claimed (in a victory lap presentation on the effectiveness of PICA) that over 6 percent of all AR 15s have been registered. Those are the state's numbers, not mine. If you do the math, that says they believe there are around 1 million AR 15s in Illinois. How many AR 15s are there in Illinois? We'll never know because, other than the 64,000 that have been registered, the rest "in the wild" will NEVER be registered, because the state has made it a crime now (after 1/1/24) to own an unregistered AR 15, so why would an owner, who now would be charged with a crime, go register his firearm. That will NOT happen.

Given the flavor of this board, I'm aware that I'm in the minority, and we're not going to come to any kind of agreement on this issue. Those who would ban AR 15s will not change their position, and I will never give up my right to own one, or more. In fact, I would rather give them away, than register them.

I remain unconvinced that the PICA act is effective. Moreover to me, it provides the state with the POTENTIAL for illegal confiscation from law abiding owners if it had the data it seeks. Fortunately it will not have that data.

This is a bit like the IRS telling you that you have to report your income from criminal activities on your taxes. Of course, no one would do that...but when you don't do that, you're committing tax fraud. That's a crime that can often be much easier to prosecute than others, especially in the world of organized crime.

Application here: cops come to a domestic violence call and find an AR-15 or two. They check and it's unregistered...they can get that gun out of the hands of a possibly violent person because it's unregistered. Plenty of mass shooters have prior interactions with the law or propensity to violence.

I'm not sure why someone's freedom to own a firearm should come before my freedom to not randomly get my head blown off at a parade.

 

[stpaulcat]

This is a bit like the IRS telling you that you have to report your income from criminal activities on your taxes. Of course, no one would do that...but when you don't do that, you're committing tax fraud. That's a crime that can often be much easier to prosecute than others, especially in the world of organized crime.

Application here: cops come to a domestic violence call and find an AR-15 or two. They check and it's unregistered...they can get that gun out of the hands of a possibly violent person because it's unregistered. Plenty of mass shooters have prior interactions with the law or propensity to violence.

I'm not sure why someone's freedom to own a firearm should come before my freedom to not randomly get my head blown off at a parade.

Your last point kind of sums up the entire argument.

 

[cattul]

Given the flavor of this board, I'm aware that I'm in the minority, and we're not going to come to any kind of agreement on this issue.

Both statements are likely true.

That said, though you may be in the minority, you are not alone in your opinion.

 

[CatManTrue]

Sigh...sure.

1) You are assuming that anyone with a FOID also owns 1 or more AR 15s, except that a FOID is required to own any kind of firearm, so you are conflating these two numbers and you cannot extrapolate just from the number of AR 15s registered against FOID holders.

2) As has been well established, the borders of Illinois are not sealed, and therefore any legislation intended to reduce the amount of guns in Illinois will always be defeated by the presence of Indiana, Wisconsin, Mississippi, and any other state that has lax laws.

3) One would think sheriffs would feel safer knowing that they don't have to worry that anyone might have a gun whenever they need to have an encounter with the population and would therefore be in support of enforcing PICA

4) In my nanny state of New Jersey, we don't have to worry about mass shootings, as we are consistently at the bottom of firearm deaths by state, owing in part to very strict gun laws and the strictness of surrounding states.

Lou!! Bring back the rant board!

 

[EvanstonCat]

Your read on state rates is incorrect, of course. New Jersey is in fact third from the bottom in firearm mortality. California is eighth from the bottom.

Illinois and Texas are right next to each other.

And, like always, poverty + lax gun laws is the worst combination.

Highest firearm mortality

Mississippi
Louisiana
New Mexico
Alabama
Wyoming


Note that this is 2021 data:

Stats of the States - Firearm Mortality

www.cdc.gov

@EvanstonCat do you wish your son had been carrying a firearm when he had a gun pulled on him. Would he be better off if he had chosen “protect and defend”?

I wish nobody had guns.

But, if my son were accosted by a criminal with a gun, I would rather he were armed and able to protect himself and those around him than being subject to getting gunned down.

 

[NUCat320]

I wish nobody had guns.

But, if my son were accosted by a criminal with a gun, I would rather he were armed and able to protect himself and those around him than being subject to getting gunned down.

But he *was* accosted, and he wasn’t armed, and he survived?

Does he carry a gun now?

 

[TheC]

So your argument is that because he escaped he should be willing to accept the risk of being caught without a firearm the next time an armed hood threatens him? So, because I drove drunk and got away with it, it proves that such risk is acceptable and won’t result in disaster the next time?

He plans to acquire one when he turns 21. If he continues to live in an area like Berkeley where criminals run wild, I will not object as long as he gets proper training.

Let me guess, you live in Suburbia and aren’t subject to dealing with street hoodlums who could impose violent crime on you on a regular basis. I would never have dreamed of owning a firearm where I grew up because it was safe where I lived. But, if the environment calls for measures to ensure safety, then you adapt. It’s like going camping into Bear and Mountain Lion country without being armed. Those caught unprepared suffer the consequences.

So if your son would have pulled out a gun in his interaction, you’re not a little bit worried things might have end differently? Now maybe things get escalated and shots are fired.

 

[EvanstonCat]

So if your son would have pulled out a gun in his interaction, you’re not a little bit worried things might have end differently? Now maybe things get escalated and shots are fired.

I worry also about someone indiscriminately deciding to shoot him without blinking because that’s what this world has come to, sadly.

There are no perfect solutions here. But, I do not believe in being the passive victim or the idea that a criminal isn’t going to unnecessarily take a life because the reality has changed. I don’t believe that the outcome needs to be put entirely in the hands of a criminal nor do I trust the outcome. People shoot now for no reason.

 

[WaveJumper]

CatMan and the wildcat 2011: IF you're worried about getting shot, I suggest you look for the guy packing a handgun rather than an AR 15. According to the latest (2022) FBI Crime Statistics data base Illinois had 842 homicides in 2022.

344 by handguns, 19 by rifle (ARs would be in this category), 50 by knife/cutting instrument, 14 personal weapons, 16 other, 9 blunt objects, 4 by automatic handgun (this would include the infamous Glock "switch" gang members are partial to), 43 unknown, and 97 firearm (whatever that is). So in Illinois 19 out of 842 homicides were caused by rifles - That's 2.25 % of all homicides compared to 348 or 41.33% by handguns. These are FBI statistics, not mine.

If you look at national statistics it's the same story. 6014/15297 or 39.31% handgun, 489/15297 or 3.2% rifle, 1216/15297 or 7.94% knife/cutting instrument, 593/15297 or 3.87% personal weapons (are these hands and feet?).

My thoughts on one way to curb violent, gun related crime:

First offense for any gun related violent crime (robbery, assault, rape, homicide, et al) - 5 yrs, no plea bargain, no parole
Second offense for any gun related violent crime - 25 yrs, no plea bargain, no parole
Third offense for any gun related violent crime - life, no plea bargain, no parole

Just my opinion, but I think that would do more to curb violent gun crime than 50 states trying to take every AR 15 out of circulation.

On a brighter note, Indiana beat Wisconsin tonight, but they did fire a few shots!

 

[NUCat320]

CatMan: IF you're worried about getting shot, I suggest you look for the guy packing a handgun rather than an AR 15. According to the latest (2022) FBI Crime Statistics data base Illinois had 842 homicides in 2022.

344 by handguns, 19 by rifle (ARs would be in this category), 50 by knife/cutting instrument, 14 personal weapons, 16 other, 9 blunt objects, 4 by automatic handgun (this would include the infamous Glock "switch" gang members are partial to), 43 unknown, and 97 firearm (whatever that is). So in Illinois 19 out of 842 homicides were caused by rifles - That's 2.25 % of all homicides compared to 348 or 41.33% by handguns. These are FBI statistics, not mine.

If you look at national statistics it's the same story. 6014/15297 or 39.31% handgun, 489/15297 or 3.2% rifle, 1216/15297 or 7.94% knife/cutting instrument, 593/15297 or 3.87% personal weapons (are these hands and feet?).

My thoughts on one way to curb violent, gun related crime:

First offense for any gun related violent crime (robbery, assault, rape, homicide, et al) - 5 yrs, no plea bargain, no parole
Second offense for any gun related violent crime - 25 yrs, no plea bargain, no parole
Third offense for any gun related violent crime - life, no plea bargain, no parole

Just my opinion, but I think that would do more to curb violent gun crime than 50 states trying to take every AR 15 out of circulation.

Hey @WaveJumper, you’re an advocate for carrying a firearm. Have you ever been forced to use one for protection?

Under what circumstances have you used your AR-15s?


I realize you’ve chosen not to answer my questions a few times, but perhaps it would be illuminating to learn. I hope you’ve not been forced to use them for protection at any point.

 

[NUCat320]

So your argument is that because he escaped he should be willing to accept the risk of being caught without a firearm the next time an armed hood threatens him? So, because I drove drunk and got away with it, it proves that such risk is acceptable and won’t result in disaster the next time?

He plans to acquire one when he turns 21. If he continues to live in an area like Berkeley where criminals run wild, I will not object as long as he gets proper training.

Let me guess, you live in Suburbia and aren’t subject to dealing with street hoodlums who could impose violent crime on you on a regular basis. I would never have dreamed of owning a firearm where I grew up because it was safe where I lived. But, if the environment calls for measures to ensure safety, then you adapt. It’s like going camping into Bear and Mountain Lion country without being armed. Those caught unprepared suffer the consequences.

What were the circumstances under which a gun was pulled on him?

I assume it was a basic mugging/robbery. I assume your son carries less than $100 in cash, which was a loss, and then cancelled his credit cards. Is that mostly right?

Now, let’s say he’s minding his own business, a dude pulls a gun, demands money. Your son, with a gun to his head, chooses to pull his weapon out instead of a wallet. He’s dead, because this was an ambush, and he’s already in a threatened position.

I’m sure it was awful, but it would be way more awful if he tried to cowboy his way out of it. I’m sorry it happened. I’m sorry there are guns everywhere. I’m happy he’s alive.

I don’t understand how you could have your son in the scariest possible situation, have him survive, and then wish something different had happened.

Do you wish he had killed that dude instead of whatever happened?

 

[WaveJumper]

That said, though you may be in the minority, you are not alone in your opinion.

Nice to know there are at least two of us.

If I remember correctly, you live in the Houston area. For 15 years, after I retired, I taught hundreds of people to Kiteboard at South Padre Island. Perhaps the greatest job I ever had, getting them to do something they thought they couldn't. Really liked the 85 mph speed limit on route 130 when driving down.

 

[IGNORE2]

Hey @WaveJumper, you’re an advocate for carrying a firearm. Have you ever been forced to use one for protection?

Under what circumstances have you used your AR-15s?


I realize you’ve chosen not to answer my questions a few times, but perhaps it would be illuminating to learn. I hope you’ve not been forced to use them for protection at any point.

Maybe he has you on ignore

 

[IGNORE2]

Not a gun guy - never have been. But love that my neighbors all are. Bad guys need the police here cuz my neighbors carry. We have more than one justified shooting.

And for a non gun guy, I admittedly love every story I read where the bad gets the business. I would take waverunners laws as a rational alternative to letting the victim or their family have six shots and the bad guy gets a pair of running shoes. If he survives, then he gets prosecuted.

 

[NUCat320]

Maybe he has you on ignore

Maybe you can ask him for me?

 

[cattul]

Nice to know there are at least two of us.

If I remember correctly, you live in the Houston area. For 15 years, after I retired, I taught hundreds of people to Kiteboard at South Padre Island. Perhaps the greatest job I ever had, getting them to do something they thought they couldn't. Really liked the 85 mph speed limit on route 130 when driving down.

I’m afraid you are thinking of someone else. I live in Oklahoma.

 

[WaveJumper]

Both my wife and I are concealed carry holders. We've both been trained in firearm safety, and for several years I helped teach women's classes on firearm safety, operation, and shooting instruction.

Fortunately, the answer is no, so far, I've never been forced to even show. The second to last thing I ever want to do is draw. The last thing I ever want to be forced to do is shoot another human being.

I was trained how to handle and shoot firearms accurately in the United States Marine Corps. I cannot tell you how excellent that training was.

When you carry, you always have to be thinking ahead, and NEVER drink if you're carrying. If I'm carrying and am stopped by the police, I always volunteer that I have a concealed carry permit and will let the officer know that I'm carrying, and where on me the weapon is located, and I keep my hands on the wheel at all times. After I've declared, I ask the officer how he would like to proceed. 95% of the time, they wont even ask you to see it and wont require you to get out of the car. There's a simple reason I do this. It's because in Illinois, when the cop pulls up your drivers license, you are already identified as a concealed carry holder. So by showing him this courtesy, he usually appreciates the fact that you volunteered that information.

When I purchased my first personal firearm, I asked myself one of the most important and serious questions one could ever ask themself. "If I or a family member, or friend, or any other human being was being threatened with deadly force, would I, could I, respond - could I kill someone who was trying to kill me?" If you can not answer yes, do not ever own a firearm, because if you do, and you can't, you will be a statistic. The criminal mind is vastly different from what I would call "normal" human beings. There is no value proposition as a killer sees you.

When I owned AR 15s, I shot paper. I miss my AR 15s because they are one of the best, most accurate, simplest engineered firearms I've ever owned. I built two for myself and helped several other people build their own. One had a match grade barrel which was certified at a half minute of angle. That means the rifle (not me) could put multiple rounds inside of a dime at 100 yards. My capability with a good scope was probably a baseball, or end of a coke can - big difference.

 

[EvanstonCat]

NJCat - since the thread was locked before I could respond.

It was a drive by at the corner of his dorm complex at 2am. Individuals in a white Honda pulled up and said “shoot them %#%$&.” My son and his friends ran for cover.