Duke

[No Chores]

The Blue Devils just landed their 4th top 25 recruit today, which makes it pretty easy to replace their 3 one-and-dones. They are doing nothing wrong, but simply adapting to the current rules, much like Kentucky. All of this, of course, underscores what a terrific season Wisconsin had. The NCAA needs to adopt rules similar to football's, while permitting high schoolers to go directly to the NBA. Sadly, if any of the Duke and Kentucky early exits don't make it in the NBA, they will not have much in the way of an education to fall back on.
I only wish I could land the coaching job at either Duke or Kentucky, because I'm quite confident that I could lead either of them to 30 plus victories next season.

 

[IdahoAlum]

It's not the NCAA that sets the rules on who can enter the draft, it's the various leagues. The NFL, NBA and MLB all negotiate labor deals with their various unions which establish who is eligible for the draft. The NCAA lobbied the NBA to raise the minimum age limit to 19, which the league did after negotiating with its players union. (The NBA also saw it in its best interest to raise the age limit so they could get a more finished product. ) That, in my view, was a mistake on the NCAA's part. Why force the best 1 percent of high school players to go to college for a year? The age limit has created this "one and done" syndrome which I think is worse than having 7 or 8 high school kids go in the draft every year. Of all the pro leagues, I like MLB's approach the best -- you can get drafted out of high school, but if you don't sign, you have to wait two more years before you can be drafted again.

 

[realcatfan]

It's not the NCAA that sets the rules on who can enter the draft, it's the various leagues. The NFL, NBA and MLB all negotiate labor deals with their various unions which establish who is eligible for the draft. The NCAA lobbied the NBA to raise the minimum age limit to 19, which the league did after negotiating with its players union. (The NBA also saw it in its best interest to raise the age limit so they could get a more finished product. ) That, in my view, was a mistake on the NCAA's part. Why force the best 1 percent of high school players to go to college for a year? The age limit has created this "one and done" syndrome which I think is worse than having 7 or 8 high school kids go in the draft every year. Of all the pro leagues, I like MLB's approach the best -- you can get drafted out of high school, but if you don't sign, you have to wait two more years before you can be drafted again.

It's not even about getting finished products. It's about evaluating players against players of equal size, strength and athletic ability. For every Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryan, and Lebron James, you have a Ndubi Ebi, a Leon Smith, a Sebastian Telfair, abd a Kwame Brown. You can't scout a guy when he's 6'11 245 (Kwame Brown NBA combine numbers) and playing his high school games against 6'4 195 lbs centers. The NBA was getting tired of shelling out money to the tune of 58.4 million over the careers of these kids that never grew into their "potential." The NBA's response was to make an age limit so the players would have to spend a year in college or in overseas pro leagues where GMs and scouts can look at the players playing an entire season against players that are much closer to their size strength and ability. Then you see if the player has the work ethic, desire, and motor to play at an elite level. Before that, you could see a couple of AAU games where the defender was comparable and a couple of high school all star games where there isn't much defense.


No Chores, what response should the NCAA take? You can't force a player to stay in school and play basketball for free. I'm not a believer in paying college athletes, but that's downright slavery. Should you make it prohibitive for schools to take 1 and done players? In that case if a kid is good enough to play in the NBA, college coaches should just stay away from him so he'll have to sit at home on his couch making nothing, in a potentially dangerous or unhealthy environment?

While Calipari is obviously a great recruiter, and is happy to send guys to the NBA when they're ready to be there, Kentucky was not the freshman team everyone assumed they were. The Harrisons, Derek Willis, and Marcus Lee were sophmores. Cauley Stien and Poythress were juniors. At this point, everyone except Willie Caulie Stein is considering coming back to school next year. Additionally, Kentucky has produced some actual student athletes. John Wall was on the SEC's academic honor roll. Anthony Davis stayed at a small high school that lacked media and recruiting attention due to their academic background. In the fall of 2014, Kentucky basketball players had a GPA of 3.111. Here's spring of 2013, I think this picture says it all

 

[Styre]

It's not even about getting finished products. It's about evaluating players against players of equal size, strength and athletic ability. For every Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryan, and Lebron James, you have a Ndubi Ebi, a Leon Smith, a Sebastian Telfair, abd a Kwame Brown.

Yeah, but you're just looking at the outliers there -- the vast majority of high school draftees went on to have successful NBA careers even if most weren't future Hall of Famers.

 

[NURoseBowl]

It's not even about getting finished products. It's about evaluating players against players of equal size, strength and athletic ability. For every Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryan, and Lebron James, you have a Ndubi Ebi, a Leon Smith, a Sebastian Telfair, abd a Kwame Brown. You can't scout a guy when he's 6'11 245 (Kwame Brown NBA combine numbers) and playing his high school games against 6'4 195 lbs centers. The NBA was getting tired of shelling out money to the tune of 58.4 million over the careers of these kids that never grew into their "potential." The NBA's response was to make an age limit so the players would have to spend a year in college or in overseas pro leagues where GMs and scouts can look at the players playing an entire season against players that are much closer to their size strength and ability. Then you see if the player has the work ethic, desire, and motor to play at an elite level. Before that, you could see a couple of AAU games where the defender was comparable and a couple of high school all star games where there isn't much defense.


No Chores, what response should the NCAA take? You can't force a player to stay in school and play basketball for free. I'm not a believer in paying college athletes, but that's downright slavery. Should you make it prohibitive for schools to take 1 and done players? In that case if a kid is good enough to play in the NBA, college coaches should just stay away from him so he'll have to sit at home on his couch making nothing, in a potentially dangerous or unhealthy environment?

While Calipari is obviously a great recruiter, and is happy to send guys to the NBA when they're ready to be there, Kentucky was not the freshman team everyone assumed they were. The Harrisons, Derek Willis, and Marcus Lee were sophmores. Cauley Stien and Poythress were juniors. At this point, everyone except Willie Caulie Stein is considering coming back to school next year. Additionally, Kentucky has produced some actual student athletes. John Wall was on the SEC's academic honor roll. Anthony Davis stayed at a small high school that lacked media and recruiting attention due to their academic background. In the fall of 2014, Kentucky basketball players had a GPA of 3.111. Here's spring of 2013, I think this picture says it all

It's not even about getting finished products. It's about evaluating players against players of equal size, strength and athletic ability. For every Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryan, and Lebron James, you have a Ndubi Ebi, a Leon Smith, a Sebastian Telfair, abd a Kwame Brown. You can't scout a guy when he's 6'11 245 (Kwame Brown NBA combine numbers) and playing his high school games against 6'4 195 lbs centers. The NBA was getting tired of shelling out money to the tune of 58.4 million over the careers of these kids that never grew into their "potential." The NBA's response was to make an age limit so the players would have to spend a year in college or in overseas pro leagues where GMs and scouts can look at the players playing an entire season against players that are much closer to their size strength and ability. Then you see if the player has the work ethic, desire, and motor to play at an elite level. Before that, you could see a couple of AAU games where the defender was comparable and a couple of high school all star games where there isn't much defense.


No Chores, what response should the NCAA take? You can't force a player to stay in school and play basketball for free. I'm not a believer in paying college athletes, but that's downright slavery. Should you make it prohibitive for schools to take 1 and done players? In that case if a kid is good enough to play in the NBA, college coaches should just stay away from him so he'll have to sit at home on his couch making nothing, in a potentially dangerous or unhealthy environment?

While Calipari is obviously a great recruiter, and is happy to send guys to the NBA when they're ready to be there, Kentucky was not the freshman team everyone assumed they were. The Harrisons, Derek Willis, and Marcus Lee were sophmores. Cauley Stien and Poythress were juniors. At this point, everyone except Willie Caulie Stein is considering coming back to school next year. Additionally, Kentucky has produced some actual student athletes. John Wall was on the SEC's academic honor roll. Anthony Davis stayed at a small high school that lacked media and recruiting attention due to their academic background. In the fall of 2014, Kentucky basketball players had a GPA of 3.111. Here's spring of 2013, I think this picture says it all

Realcatfan;
And what do you imagine Kentucky basketball players have to do to get good grades? My guess is, showing up for roll call is about half the battle. No need to waste people's time asking for concrete, foolproof evidence of this; do you honestly believe Kentucky's administration/coaching staff would ever allow any such evidence to even sniff the light of day? As V-Cat said about this very situation, I think common sense is enough. One needn't be an investigative genius to smell smoke in all four corners of that room, and be confident in the logical conclusion that something's burning.

 

[realcatfan]

Realcatfan;
And what do you imagine Kentucky basketball players have to do to get good grades? My guess is, showing up for roll call is about half the battle. No need to waste people's time asking for concrete, foolproof evidence of this; do you honestly believe Kentucky's administration/coaching staff would ever allow any such evidence to even sniff the light of day? As V-Cat said about this very situation, I think common sense is enough. One needn't be an investigative genius to smell smoke in all four corners of that room, and be confident in the logical conclusion that something's burning.

Until I hear something to the contrary, I'm going to think they have to do what every other student at the school has to do. I obviously don't think Kentucky has academic difficulty of a Northwestern or MIT. I do see it being an accredited university. As such, I'm not going to assume that Kentucky is handing out A's to players and then doing a giant cover up.

I also don't think you "cheat your way to a 4.0" . It's one thing to give a C for showing up and turning in garbage work. You don't get a 4.0 for that. I've also heard interviews of John Wall, Anthony Davis, and some others and don't view them as being morons. Do I think they can get above a 3.0 at Kentucky? You bet. I think Lebron James is actually brilliant. So is Magic Johnson for that matter. Is it really that hard to believe that someone can be smart, athletic and motivate to do well in more than one aspect of life?

Am I calling Calipari a saint and every player he coached intelligent? Of course not, see Derrick Rose. He can barely read. I'm just saying lets not assume every kid that doesn't go to Northwestern is dumbass or that a player isn't a student because he chose to make 15 million dollars over the next 3 years.

 

[Medill90]

Yeah, but you're just looking at the outliers there -- the vast majority of high school draftees went on to have successful NBA careers even if most weren't future Hall of Famers.

I read in the last few weeks that the NCAA and NBA have developed a proposal that details how they will create a "by invitation only" NCAA sanctioned workout for underclassmen. From memory, there would only be 60 or so invites. So, if you haven't been invited, the NBA isn't interested in drafting you. And after the workout players sit down with NBA scouts and get a report on their evaluation. The players with low evals could then go back to school and continue playing/developing.

Something like this may have save Jereme Richmond and many others a lot of headaches and preserved their education.

I would think that high school prospects would fit neatly into this concept.

 

[willycat]

It's not even about getting finished products. It's about evaluating players against players of equal size, strength and athletic ability. For every Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryan, and Lebron James, you have a Ndubi Ebi, a Leon Smith, a Sebastian Telfair, abd a Kwame Brown. You can't scout a guy when he's 6'11 245 (Kwame Brown NBA combine numbers) and playing his high school games against 6'4 195 lbs centers. The NBA was getting tired of shelling out money to the tune of 58.4 million over the careers of these kids that never grew into their "potential." The NBA's response was to make an age limit so the players would have to spend a year in college or in overseas pro leagues where GMs and scouts can look at the players playing an entire season against players that are much closer to their size strength and ability. Then you see if the player has the work ethic, desire, and motor to play at an elite level. Before that, you could see a couple of AAU games where the defender was comparable and a couple of high school all star games where there isn't much defense.
realfan, a sentence in your first paragraph says it all. "The NBA made an age limit so players HAVE TO SPEND A YEAR IN COLLEGE". Wonder how that required one year at Memphis, while Calipari was his coach helped Derrick Rose. How many classes do you actually think he attended/completed?

No Chores, what response should the NCAA take? You can't force a player to stay in school and play basketball for free. I'm not a believer in paying college athletes, but that's downright slavery. Should you make it prohibitive for schools to take 1 and done players? In that case if a kid is good enough to play in the NBA, college coaches should just stay away from him so he'll have to sit at home on his couch making nothing, in a potentially dangerous or unhealthy environment?

While Calipari is obviously a great recruiter, and is happy to send guys to the NBA when they're ready to be there, Kentucky was not the freshman team everyone assumed they were. The Harrisons, Derek Willis, and Marcus Lee were sophmores. Cauley Stien and Poythress were juniors. At this point, everyone except Willie Caulie Stein is considering coming back to school next year. Additionally, Kentucky has produced some actual student athletes. John Wall was on the SEC's academic honor roll. Anthony Davis stayed at a small high school that lacked media and recruiting attention due to their academic background. In the fall of 2014, Kentucky basketball players had a GPA of 3.111. Here's spring of 2013, I think this picture says it all

 

[NUCat320]

It's not the NCAA that sets the rules on who can enter the draft, it's the various leagues. The NFL, NBA and MLB all negotiate labor deals with their various unions which establish who is eligible for the draft. The NCAA lobbied the NBA to raise the minimum age limit to 19, which the league did after negotiating with its players union. (The NBA also saw it in its best interest to raise the age limit so they could get a more finished product. ) That, in my view, was a mistake on the NCAA's part. Why force the best 1 percent of high school players to go to college for a year? The age limit has created this "one and done" syndrome which I think is worse than having 7 or 8 high school kids go in the draft every year. Of all the pro leagues, I like MLB's approach the best -- you can get drafted out of high school, but if you don't sign, you have to wait two more years before you can be drafted again.

Idaho, adopting the baseball system only works if the NBA is willing to actually invest in a player development system, rather than continuing to outsource it. It's the right thing to do, and it makes sense, because the high school players who were can't miss prospects almost always worked out in the NBA. People remember Korleone Young and Leon Smith and Ronnie Fields, but they were the exception, not the rule. I'm comfortable saying that Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and LeBron James were the best players to enter the NBA in the 10 years starting in 1995. The only thing they have in common is their jump straight from high school to the pros. It does not benefit the NBA to keep that quality of talent out of the league.

For what it's worth, I also don't think that, if we were to lose five or 10 or 15 straight to the pros guys from the NCAA tournament every year, that the tournament would suffer at all. It is so culturally ingrained, and CBS is so invested in promoting in that, that it simply couldn't fail.

 

[Styre]

I'm comfortable saying that Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and LeBron James were the best players to enter the NBA in the 10 years starting in 1995. The only thing they have in common is their jump straight from high school to the pros. It does not benefit the NBA to keep that quality of talent out of the league.

Tim Duncan may disagree with that assessment, but it's a good point.

 

[NURoseBowl]

Until I hear something to the contrary, I'm going to think they have to do what every other student at the school has to do. I obviously don't think Kentucky has academic difficulty of a Northwestern or MIT. I do see it being an accredited university. As such, I'm not going to assume that Kentucky is handing out A's to players and then doing a giant cover up.

I also don't think you "cheat your way to a 4.0" . It's one thing to give a C for showing up and turning in garbage work. You don't get a 4.0 for that. I've also heard interviews of John Wall, Anthony Davis, and some others and don't view them as being morons. Do I think they can get above a 3.0 at Kentucky? You bet. I think Lebron James is actually brilliant. So is Magic Johnson for that matter. Is it really that hard to believe that someone can be smart, athletic and motivate to do well in more than one aspect of life?

Am I calling Calipari a saint and every player he coached intelligent? Of course not, see Derrick Rose. He can barely read. I'm just saying lets not assume every kid that doesn't go to Northwestern is dumbass or that a player isn't a student because he chose to make 15 million dollars over the next 3 years.

Well put; point well taken.

 

[IdahoAlum]

Idaho, adopting the baseball system only works if the NBA is willing to actually invest in a player development system, rather than continuing to outsource it. It's the right thing to do, and it makes sense, because the high school players who were can't miss prospects almost always worked out in the NBA. People remember Korleone Young and Leon Smith and Ronnie Fields, but they were the exception, not the rule. I'm comfortable saying that Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and LeBron James were the best players to enter the NBA in the 10 years starting in 1995. The only thing they have in common is their jump straight from high school to the pros. It does not benefit the NBA to keep that quality of talent out of the league.

For what it's worth, I also don't think that, if we were to lose five or 10 or 15 straight to the pros guys from the NCAA tournament every year, that the tournament would suffer at all. It is so culturally ingrained, and CBS is so invested in promoting in that, that it simply couldn't fail.

The NBA has invested in its own player development system -- the D League. Seventeen of the 18 teams in the D-League are either single-affiliated with an NBA team, or owned outright by an NBA team. Very similar to the minor league baseball system. About one-third of the players in the NBA have spent time in the D-League. There is also the European leagues, which are often used by teams like the Spurs for development of foreign players they draft, but who they deem not quite ready for prime time. There are really plenty of options for aspiring NBA players who aren't quite good enough for the league right now, but don't want to go to college. The Mudiay kid who originally signed with SMU last year, but decided to play in China (and support his family) last year instead is a perfect example.

 

[Windy City Cat Fan]

Yeah, but you're just looking at the outliers there -- the vast majority of high school draftees went on to have successful NBA careers even if most weren't future Hall of Famers.

Even the so called unsuccessful ones have made a nice salary - Leon Smith made almost $1.5m in NBA contracts. Who is the NCAA or the NBA or anyone else to say he doesn't have a right to earn that money when an NBA team is willing to pay him, irregardless of how many college classes he attends. No one is making the next tennis or golf star or musician or actor etc. attend a years worth of meaningless college classes before they move on to their totally unrelated professional field, why should Leon Smith have had to, what good would that have served him.

 

[No Chores]

Even the so called unsuccessful ones have made a nice salary - Leon Smith made almost $1.5m in NBA contracts. Who is the NCAA or the NBA or anyone else to say he doesn't have a right to earn that money when an NBA team is willing to pay him, irregardless of how many college classes he attends. No one is making the next tennis or golf star or musician or actor etc. attend a years worth of meaningless college classes before they move on to their totally unrelated professional field, why should Leon Smith have had to, what good would that have served him.

Windy City,
I certainly have no problem with the high school kids going directly to the NBA. It's the "one-and-dones" in college that I object to.
By the way, what is Leon doing these days? Is he still in the NBA? I ask only because that 1.5 is not going to sustain him for the rest of his life.
(Also, you should note for future reference that "irregardless" is not a word. Much better choices would be "regardless" or "irrespective".)

 

[NUCat320]

The NBA has invested in its own player development system -- the D League. Seventeen of the 18 teams in the D-League are either single-affiliated with an NBA team, or owned outright by an NBA team. Very similar to the minor league baseball system. About one-third of the players in the NBA have spent time in the D-League. There is also the European leagues, which are often used by teams like the Spurs for development of foreign players they draft, but who they deem not quite ready for prime time. There are really plenty of options for aspiring NBA players who aren't quite good enough for the league right now, but don't want to go to college. The Mudiay kid who originally signed with SMU last year, but decided to play in China (and support his family) last year instead is a perfect example.

You're correct, Idaho. And the NBA has made tremendous strides in using the D-League as taxi squads and a place to keep draft picks busy.

What the NBA doesn't do that MLB does so well is offer a place for players who'd rather go pro immediately, instead of "playing student" for 1 or 2 years. The NBA prefers to outsource that player development, when there are other ways (similar in concept to the Gulf Coast League or Arizona Rookie League in MLB) that the NBA could support a straight-to-the-pros infrastructure at limited cost.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

You're correct, Idaho. And the NBA has made tremendous strides in using the D-League as taxi squads and a place to keep draft picks busy.

What the NBA doesn't do that MLB does so well is offer a place for players who'd rather go pro immediately, instead of "playing student" for 1 or 2 years. The NBA prefers to outsource that player development, when there are other ways (similar in concept to the Gulf Coast League or Arizona Rookie League in MLB) that the NBA could support a straight-to-the-pros infrastructure at limited cost.

I don't understand. The D-League is available. What's wrong with going the D-League route after high school if you don't want to do college?

 

[willycat]

I don't understand. The D-League is available. What's wrong with going the D-League route after high school if you don't want to do college?

Think that the pay is closer to minimum wage compared to what they could get at Kentucky, No. Carolina, Kansas and Ohio St..

 

[IdahoAlum]

You're correct, Idaho. And the NBA has made tremendous strides in using the D-League as taxi squads and a place to keep draft picks busy.

What the NBA doesn't do that MLB does so well is offer a place for players who'd rather go pro immediately, instead of "playing student" for 1 or 2 years. The NBA prefers to outsource that player development, when there are other ways (similar in concept to the Gulf Coast League or Arizona Rookie League in MLB) that the NBA could support a straight-to-the-pros infrastructure at limited cost.

Yeah, maybe I'm dense, but I'm not understanding the distinction. The D League minimum age is 18 (unlike the NBA, which is 19 and one year out of high school), so it's definitely an option for a high school star who doesn't want to play in college.

 

[Styre]

Yeah, maybe I'm dense, but I'm not understanding the distinction. The D League minimum age is 18 (unlike the NBA, which is 19 and one year out of high school), so it's definitely an option for a high school star who doesn't want to play in college.

It's an option, but at the moment it's a bad option. Nobody in the D-League cares about winning games -- nobody plays defense, nobody plays team basketball -- they only care about amassing stats and getting to the NBA. So it's very difficult for scouts to determine who has real NBA talent when bad players are scoring 50 points on any given night. Unless players start moving from high school to the D-League in large numbers, it'll always be a poor alternative to the NCAA or playing overseas.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

It's an option, but at the moment it's a bad option. Nobody in the D-League cares about winning games -- nobody plays defense, nobody plays team basketball -- they only care about amassing stats and getting to the NBA. So it's very difficult for scouts to determine who has real NBA talent when bad players are scoring 50 points on any given night. Unless players start moving from high school to the D-League in large numbers, it'll always be a poor alternative to the NCAA or playing overseas.

C'mon...these scouts are experts. They can spot the talent the same as they can from a guy playing high school. If it's the money they're worried about...well...if they're good enough, that won't be a problem for long. If they're not good enough, they don't deserve the big money.

 

[hdhntr1]

Until I hear something to the contrary, I'm going to think they have to do what every other student at the school has to do. I obviously don't think Kentucky has academic difficulty of a Northwestern or MIT. I do see it being an accredited university. As such, I'm not going to assume that Kentucky is handing out A's to players and then doing a giant cover up.

I also don't think you "cheat your way to a 4.0" . It's one thing to give a C for showing up and turning in garbage work. You don't get a 4.0 for that. I've also heard interviews of John Wall, Anthony Davis, and some others and don't view them as being morons. Do I think they can get above a 3.0 at Kentucky? You bet. I think Lebron James is actually brilliant. So is Magic Johnson for that matter. Is it really that hard to believe that someone can be smart, athletic and motivate to do well in more than one aspect of life?

Am I calling Calipari a saint and every player he coached intelligent? Of course not, see Derrick Rose. He can barely read. I'm just saying lets not assume every kid that doesn't go to Northwestern is dumbass or that a player isn't a student because he chose to make 15 million dollars over the next 3 years.

But Rose went to Memphis, not KY.

 

[IdahoAlum]

It's an option, but at the moment it's a bad option. Nobody in the D-League cares about winning games -- nobody plays defense, nobody plays team basketball -- they only care about amassing stats and getting to the NBA. So it's very difficult for scouts to determine who has real NBA talent when bad players are scoring 50 points on any given night. Unless players start moving from high school to the D-League in large numbers, it'll always be a poor alternative to the NCAA or playing overseas.

I'm not buying that stereotyping characterization of the D League. The Utah Jazz are a great example of how seriously teams take the D League these days. Their head coach, Quinn Snyder, spent time coaching in the D League for San Antonio's affiliate and he was charged with making sure they implemented San Antonio's system. The Jazz signed an exclusive agreement with the Boise D League team and installed their own coach there. They frequently assign their best young players to the D League for seasoning and development. And they signed and played four D League players at different times this season. If I'm a player right out of high school who thinks I have a professional basketball future and I don't want to go to college to play, I'm definitely trying out for a D League team. If I just want to make money, then a foreign league might be my best option. But getting to the NBA eventually? D-League all the way.

 

[Styre]

C'mon...these scouts are experts. They can spot the talent the same as they can from a guy playing high school. If it's the money they're worried about...well...if they're good enough, that won't be a problem for long. If they're not good enough, they don't deserve the big money.

The NBA's argument is that players aren't ready for the league straight out of high school, whether due to a lack of refinement in their game or a lack of personal maturity or whatever else. Their own developmental league isn't as good at developing those things as college basketball is, so nobody goes to the D-League unless they know they can't stay academically eligible in college. If we get a landmark moment like a Parker or an Okafor choosing the D-League over college, things might change, but until then it's simply not a good choice for a player who wants to maximize his chances of making the NBA.

 

[Styre]

I'm not buying that stereotyping characterization of the D League. The Utah Jazz are a great example of how seriously teams take the D League these days. Their head coach, Quinn Snyder, spent time coaching in the D League for San Antonio's affiliate and he was charged with making sure they implemented San Antonio's system. The Jazz signed an exclusive agreement with the Boise D League team and installed their own coach there. They frequently assign their best young players to the D League for seasoning and development. And they signed and played four D League players at different times this season. If I'm a player right out of high school who thinks I have a professional basketball future and I don't want to go to college to play, I'm definitely trying out for a D League team. If I just want to make money, then a foreign league might be my best option. But getting to the NBA eventually? D-League all the way.

And if you don't end up on one of the small number of D-League teams that take it that seriously and are linked that intimately with their NBA parent?

Look, things are changing, and I think in 5-10 years it'll be a much better league and a much better option, but right now there's very little reason why an NBA-caliber player wouldn't want to play a year in college.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

And if you don't end up on one of the small number of D-League teams that take it that seriously and are linked that intimately with their NBA parent?

I think they all take is seriously.
This really isn't about that at all. It's about a player worried he'll be exposed as a subpar player before he gets his big contract. Thus, few take the D-League route because they're worried they'll never get that big contract before proving their worth.

 

[IdahoAlum]

The NBA's argument is that players aren't ready for the league straight out of high school, whether due to a lack of refinement in their game or a lack of personal maturity or whatever else. Their own developmental league isn't as good at developing those things as college basketball is, so nobody goes to the D-League unless they know they can't stay academically eligible in college. If we get a landmark moment like a Parker or an Okafor choosing the D-League over college, things might change, but until then it's simply not a good choice for a player who wants to maximize his chances of making the NBA.

I think a lot of NBA personnel people might disagree with you there, Styre. Right now, most kids who think they are going to make it to the NBA are going the college route rather than D League or going overseas, for any number of legitimate reasons. But I would argue that, if the NBA did away with age and one year out of high school restriction, the D League would provide a perfectly fine "safety net" for kids who come right out of high school and aren't quite good enough to make an NBA roster. I would argue the coaching and experience they'd get in the D-League would be much more geared toward getting them ready to make an NBA roster than what they'd experience in most college programs. I don't think we're talking about a huge number of players, either, maybe a dozen or so. The vast majority of kids will still go the college basketball route.

 

[NUCat320]

I'm not buying that stereotyping characterization of the D League. The Utah Jazz are a great example of how seriously teams take the D League these days. Their head coach, Quinn Snyder, spent time coaching in the D League for San Antonio's affiliate and he was charged with making sure they implemented San Antonio's system. The Jazz signed an exclusive agreement with the Boise D League team and installed their own coach there. They frequently assign their best young players to the D League for seasoning and development. And they signed and played four D League players at different times this season. If I'm a player right out of high school who thinks I have a professional basketball future and I don't want to go to college to play, I'm definitely trying out for a D League team. If I just want to make money, then a foreign league might be my best option. But getting to the NBA eventually? D-League all the way.

The distinction for me is the salary structure.

A high school to the pros baseball player who goes in an early round is paid peanuts - $1,000-1,500 or so a month - but has gotten a six-or seven-figure signing bonus. This means that high school-to-the-pros is an option.

As it stands in an age-limit controlled NBA, you can't draft a kid, sign a bonus, and let him develop in the D-League. (I think the D League is also age-limit controlled, right?) The infrastructure isn't in place to support anything but 'sign and play in the League.' The 'control' clock starts immediately. In mlb, a raw 18-year-old can develop at the MiLB annual salary because the contract structure and development infrastructure is built to support it. That infrastructure was outsourced to the ncaa.

The NBA is making great strides using the D-League. But if they were to open the draft to high school prospects who could a) go to the pros if they were LeBron or Garnett , or b) develop a year or two at a lower level before advancing to their three-year rookie contract, they would be better off and the ncaa would be in a similar place.

I'm not even sure what I've written makes sense. But the age limit is a farce that prevents the best talent from joining the NBA.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

The distinction for me is the salary structure.
But the age limit is a farce that prevents the best talent from joining the NBA.

It's far from a farce. It's a private operation keeping it's talent as strong as possible. If a player has the goods, he can show it in the D-League . . .

 

[PURPLECAT88]

It's far from a farce. It's a private operation keeping it's talent as strong as possible. If a player has the goods, he can show it in the D-League . . .

Can he really show it? Say a high school player wants to go to the D-League. Does he just sign a free agent contract? Is he then the property of the NBA team that the D-League team is affiliated with? Or does he play one year in the D-League and then declare for the draft? If so, why would an organization sign and develop him just so he can be drafted by a competing organization. Unless guys can be drafted out of high school and stashed in the D-League until they are age-eligible for the NBA, then the D-League is not a real option.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Can he really show it?

If he can't, then he's not immediate NBA material...

 

[Styre]

I think they all take is seriously.
This really isn't about that at all. It's about a player worried he'll be exposed as a subpar player before he gets his big contract. Thus, few take the D-League route because they're worried they'll never get that big contract before proving their worth.

There's no difference between that and going to college for a year and being exposed. And no, the entire D-League is not micromanaged to the extent that the Jazz do it, not least because there aren't enough teams for it to work that way. Few players take the D-League route -- in fact, has anyone other than Latavious Williams even tried it straight out of high school? -- because college is proven to get players to the NBA and the D-League isn't.

It's far from a farce. It's a private operation keeping it's talent as strong as possible. If a player has the goods, he can show it in the D-League . . .

The "keeping the talent strong" argument is a tired old canard the NBA likes to trot out. It's entirely untrue. Again, the vast majority of players drafted out of high school had successful NBA careers. If a one-year age restriction actually improved the league's talent level, wouldn't you therefore expect players drafted straight out of high school to fail more often than not?

But I would argue that, if the NBA did away with age and one year out of high school restriction, the D League would provide a perfectly fine "safety net" for kids who come right out of high school and aren't quite good enough to make an NBA roster. I would argue the coaching and experience they'd get in the D-League would be much more geared toward getting them ready to make an NBA roster than what they'd experience in most college programs.

Here I agree completely. The problem we keep coming back to is the age limit, which should be abolished -- and then the D-League could be used as a true minor league for high school players.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

If he can't, then he's not immediate NBA material...

C'mon. My questions were real, not rhetorical. I don't really know how the D-League works. Can a player straight out of high school really just sign with any old D-League team? What would his status then be after one year? Has any player made the jump to the NBA after high school and one year in the D-League?

If the answers to these questions are not Yes, Draft eligible, Yes, then I don't think anyone can say that under the current system the D-League is a legitimate path for a high schooler to the NBA.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

The NBA is a private organization that can operate how it wants to. There are still options available for those that don't wish to go to college.

Besides, the NBA players union wants no part of high schoolers coming straight out and would never let it happen.

 

[IdahoAlum]

The D League age limit is 18 (unlike the NBA's age limit of 19), and there is no requirement that the player be out of high school at least one year (as there is in the NBA). The D League gets its players from a number of sources. Here are two, per its web site:

LOCAL TRYOUT PLAYERS
NBA D-League teams hold tryouts during each offseason, inviting some players to participate for free while attracting locals who pay a small fee to participate. The teams can invite the cream of the crop (up to five players) to their training camps.
A few dozen tryout players each year make their way onto training camp rosters, and many have even made it into game action. “Mr. Mad Ant” Ron Howard has authored the ultimate Cinderella story among that group, parlaying a training camp invitation in 2007 into a seven-year career in Fort Wayne, capped by an historic championship season in 2014.
Examples: Kiwi Gardner (Santa Cruz Warriors), Ron Howard (Fort Wayne Mad Ants), Mario Little (Oklahoma City Blue)

NBA D-LEAGUE DRAFT PICKS
Every fall, more than 200 players are signed by the league office and placed in the NBA D-League Draft. About half of them are selected on Draft day, which features a field of NBA and NBA D-League vets, international pros, undrafted rookies and NBA D-League National Tryout players.
Many of the top picks arrive just days before the Draft after either arriving from overseas or being waived by NBA teams — a group that included Quincy Douby, James Johnson and DeAndre Liggins in 2013.
Examples (2013-14): Pierre Jackson (Idaho Stampede), Thanasis Antetokounmpo (Delaware 87ers), James Johnson (RGV Vipers)

Clearly, a high school player who felt he was good enough to play professionally but did not want to go to college could try out for the D League and, if he was good enough, could earn a spot to training camp or their way into the D League Draft. I repeat -- this would only work for a very small number of players. The vast majority of kids are going to be better served by playing college basketball, because they are not going to be good enough to be drafted by the NBA, or even good enough to get signed by the D League out of high school. But at least the D League opportunity is there as a backup. And the whole point of this discussion is that the "one-and-done" syndrome is caused by the NBA's age limit, which I would argue is an arbitrary and unnecessary restraint of a young man's opportunity to make a living.

PS--I would also argue the "one-and-done" syndrome is a minor problem compared to the mass transfers that occur every season. Fully 40 percent of college basketball players transfer before their junior seasons. That is far more disruptive to the game, in the big picture, than the handful of kids who play one season and then go to the NBA draft. I support the kids' rights to transfer, BTW. But there is no doubt the high transfer rate makes life chaotic for coaches and causes a lot of churn in programs.

 

[Styre]

C'mon. My questions were real, not rhetorical. I don't really know how the D-League works. Can a player straight out of high school really just sign with any old D-League team? What would his status then be after one year? Has any player made the jump to the NBA after high school and one year in the D-League?

Like IdahoAlum said, you can't sign with any old team, but you can enter the D-League Draft right out of high school if you want. After one year in the D-League, you then become eligible for the NBA Draft.

As far as I know, only one player -- Latavious Williams -- has gone down this path. He was a top 20 recruit that signed with Memphis but backed out due to academic concerns and opted instead to enter the D-League Draft. After one season playing for Tulsa, he entered the NBA Draft and was selected in the 2nd round by Miami and then traded to OKC. He never made an NBA roster, however, and is currently playing overseas in Spain.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

Like IdahoAlum said, you can't sign with any old team, but you can enter the D-League Draft right out of high school if you want. After one year in the D-League, you then become eligible for the NBA Draft.

As far as I know, only one player -- Latavious Williams -- has gone down this path. He was a top 20 recruit that signed with Memphis but backed out due to academic concerns and opted instead to enter the D-League Draft. After one season playing for Tulsa, he entered the NBA Draft and was selected in the 2nd round by Miami and then traded to OKC. He never made an NBA roster, however, and is currently playing overseas in Spain.

Thanks.

 

[thewildcat2011]

The D League age limit is 18 (unlike the NBA's age limit of 19), and there is no requirement that the player be out of high school at least one year (as there is in the NBA). The D League gets its players from a number of sources. Here are two, per its web site:

LOCAL TRYOUT PLAYERS
NBA D-League teams hold tryouts during each offseason, inviting some players to participate for free while attracting locals who pay a small fee to participate. The teams can invite the cream of the crop (up to five players) to their training camps.
A few dozen tryout players each year make their way onto training camp rosters, and many have even made it into game action. “Mr. Mad Ant” Ron Howard has authored the ultimate Cinderella story among that group, parlaying a training camp invitation in 2007 into a seven-year career in Fort Wayne, capped by an historic championship season in 2014.
Examples: Kiwi Gardner (Santa Cruz Warriors), Ron Howard (Fort Wayne Mad Ants), Mario Little (Oklahoma City Blue)

NBA D-LEAGUE DRAFT PICKS
Every fall, more than 200 players are signed by the league office and placed in the NBA D-League Draft. About half of them are selected on Draft day, which features a field of NBA and NBA D-League vets, international pros, undrafted rookies and NBA D-League National Tryout players.
Many of the top picks arrive just days before the Draft after either arriving from overseas or being waived by NBA teams — a group that included Quincy Douby, James Johnson and DeAndre Liggins in 2013.
Examples (2013-14): Pierre Jackson (Idaho Stampede), Thanasis Antetokounmpo (Delaware 87ers), James Johnson (RGV Vipers)

Clearly, a high school player who felt he was good enough to play professionally but did not want to go to college could try out for the D League and, if he was good enough, could earn a spot to training camp or their way into the D League Draft. I repeat -- this would only work for a very small number of players. The vast majority of kids are going to be better served by playing college basketball, because they are not going to be good enough to be drafted by the NBA, or even good enough to get signed by the D League out of high school. But at least the D League opportunity is there as a backup. And the whole point of this discussion is that the "one-and-done" syndrome is caused by the NBA's age limit, which I would argue is an arbitrary and unnecessary restraint of a young man's opportunity to make a living.

PS--I would also argue the "one-and-done" syndrome is a minor problem compared to the mass transfers that occur every season. Fully 40 percent of college basketball players transfer before their junior seasons. That is far more disruptive to the game, in the big picture, than the handful of kids who play one season and then go to the NBA draft. I support the kids' rights to transfer, BTW. But there is no doubt the high transfer rate makes life chaotic for coaches and causes a lot of churn in programs.

Does trying out for an NBADL team or entering that draft mess with a player's NCAA eligibility? If so, it doesn't seem to be a realistic option given the security provided by a scholarship offer.

 

[Sec.112]

the vast majority of players drafted out of high school had successful NBA careers.

Nice conversation.

I'd argue the one main point ignored here is the return on investment needed to get a high school kid acclimated to the NBA. If the kid is a hot prospect, he's going to be drafted in the first round and get the money that comes with that. Now how often does the drafting team get a good return on that first-round money - especially for three years (or whatever the rookie contract is)?

So Styre, I go back to your point above. For the purpose of discussion, let's say I agree with your statement that a vast majority of players drafted out of high school (here's a list ... if you can see it. Thanks, Rivals) had successful NBA careers. I sure don't think a majority of them had that career with the team that drafted them.

I'd bet the motivation for so many of these rules comes from owners protecting themselves from their GMs. I think a high school/college kid has to look at this from that perspective because I don't think these rules or the D-League are set up at all to help fringe players. It's to fulfill a CBA obligation and NBA owners.

 

[Styre]

I'd argue the one main point ignored here is the return on investment needed to get a high school kid acclimated to the NBA. If the kid is a hot prospect, he's going to be drafted in the first round and get the money that comes with that. Now how often does the drafting team get a good return on that first-round money - especially for three years (or whatever the rookie contract is)?

So Styre, I go back to your point above. For the purpose of discussion, let's say I agree with your statement that a vast majority of players drafted out of high school (here's a list ... if you can see it. Thanks, Rivals) had successful NBA careers. I sure don't think a majority of them had that career with the team that drafted them.

Good point, but then we need to ask how the rate of high school draftees changing teams compares to the rate of all draftees changing teams, and I don't know the answer to that. I suspect it's not much different, though, just from taking a casual glance through some of those players' career stats.