Did you read that thread? At least one other poster termed it an embarassment....
Fitz on OL
- Thread starter NJCat
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Did you read that thread? At least one other poster termed it an embarassment....
I'm thrilled with a 9 win regular season and chance at 10 for the season. I also EXPECT a West crown with some regular frequency.
I believe that an upgrade is possible in the OL coach job. NU has had better in the past. If I were HC, I would risk the downside of a potential bad hire for the chance at an upgrade in that job. I'd also use the potential for a not-too-distant promotion to OC as bait to attract a talented OL coach.
I do NOT expect NU to recruit at the same level of UM, OSU, or Ped St. But, closer to the level of Stanford? Yes, over time. Keep trending up. Keep finishing in the top 25 and we're on the right track. Eventually, you get a breakthrough year and win the B1G with a shot at the CFPs.
I believe that an upgrade is possible in the OL coach job. NU has had better in the past. If I were HC, I would risk the downside of a potential bad hire for the chance at an upgrade in that job. I'd also use the potential for a not-too-distant promotion to OC as bait to attract a talented OL coach.
I do NOT expect NU to recruit at the same level of UM, OSU, or Ped St. But, closer to the level of Stanford? Yes, over time. Keep trending up. Keep finishing in the top 25 and we're on the right track. Eventually, you get a breakthrough year and win the B1G with a shot at the CFPs.
The entire team was awful against Duke. Especially, the defensive line. A few freshmen, and Thompson got outplayed. Never mind the secondary which was forced to assemble guys during the game.
Im glad you checked him. It amazes me how DaCat and a couple others are still focused on the "Fire a coach" narrative.
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This cracks me up. First, turk agreeing with himself. Second, who's the one that went on and on ad nauseum with the "Problem with Fitz" narrative, including advocating the wholesale firing of coaches? Third, who's the one always calling out so-called pollyanna's when they defend Fitz? You've called me a pollyanna before, turk, so which is it? Who's been trolling the board about the Fake on the Lake, it's never happening, blah blah? Negative much? I could go on but it'll fill this thread. You're the last one to call others negative.
I'm one of the first ones, if not the the first, who said that we would run the table after the Ped State defeat while the board was melting down. That said, I recognize a problem when I see one, and the OL issue needs to be fixed. No anger involved here, just an objective opinion. I think Fitz is perfect for the NU job and I've been one of his strongest backers, even when turk and others were bashing him and even calling for his firing. But whatever, turk, you've proven yourself to be a troll and a fake, it's recorded all over the internet. I wonder if Scout still has the old threads you created, where you bashed WR posters, trashed Brian Bullock when he committed, and other egregious comments you made. I used to think you were entertaining until a few years ago when you went off the deep end. Sad.
EDIT: Let me just add that it seems like turk in real life is a decent dude; but his internet persona is ahem, psychotic.
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A) You apparently didn't read another post I made on the subject if you believe I think the OL performed well early in the season. B} Wow, that's an elegant analogy. C) If I'm bad early in the year, but end up outperforming 9 of my 13 co-workers then, yeah, I'd be mostly happy about that.
Yes if the running game is being stuffed because they're playing 8 or 9 in the box then we have to get separation by our receivers and better reads by our QB, and then completions. That's the way to win, not by running into a brick wall and expecting a difference ( the definition of insanity). Perhaps next year with our stable of running backs and an improved QB and OL we will reach the top, no matter who we will be playing.
It was a team loss. So while the OL play was far from the only reason, it was definitely a sizable part in what led to the loss. It got top priority because of the consistent problems we had had there from the beginning of the year that looked like they continued into the WIS game.
Of course, not many other teams have moved the ball against WIS either. They have the best D in the BIG and I think second in the country
It is not that IL is the measuring stick. The fact of the matter is that in the last 7 games, they have given up all of about 6 sacks. Vs 23 in the first 5 games. Running game also has improved. They definitely were pretty bad at the beginning of the year with DUKE being an unexplainable especially low point. But regardless, their performance has improved pretty substantially since then.
Now why did we start so badly and why so much improvement? Is it all the OL or is it related to other factors? Starting badly seems at least in part because of the musical chairs aspect of the OL at the beginning of the season. Eventually we settled on the four from last year plus Slater. But Slater is still a true Frosh. Likely it took him awhile to get into the mix and settle in. Other factors might be health of players such as JJ, different play calling, and facing less challenging Ds. So how much is improved lie play and how much is other factors? Hard for us to really know.
If it is vastly improved line play, very happy to see it. But it would mean it is likely we would see coaches continue in current positions. Then, the question becomes, will it continue? Then, how do we avoid what we saw in the beginning of the year?
There are times to give Fitz credit. This is that time. I am not speaking for turk but ive seen enough to let our ol coach off the hook. So should you.
I think it is the overall program that should be used as the measuring stick. Not so much any particular position group. And if we are comparing vs their DL, our DL comes up pretty good. Especially as they got more seasoning on them and grew into the positions
No one gives Fitz more credit than me (except maybe Donald Trump). But I will politely refuse your offer to let the OL coach off the hook... turk.
I'll disagree with you, too, corbi. The O line didn't play well against Wisconsin at all, but Thorson was likewise very poor against Wisky. He held the ball way too long most of the time and didn't read the defense well, so he was a big part of several of those sacks. Throw in a bad pick 6 and a safety that was all on Thorson and you could account for the final margin right there. I wasn't a fan of the playcalling against Wisky as well, so McCall shares in the blame. Wish we could have that game back and play it now because I think it would be a great battle.
I am not sure that you are disagreeing with me. I too have been critical of Thorson's play this year. In particular during the Duke game I was crucified for putting more blame on Thorson's play than the OL. This team clearly is not perfect. We have other weaknesses besides the OL. That being said, for anyone who has been paying close attention there is no doubt that the OL has been the one area that has consistently underperformed year in and year out for at least 5 seasons. I think people on these boards have short memories but all you have to do is do a search of threads on these boards and you would find similar criticisms of our OL play for the last several years. This sub par play has spanned multiple years and dozens of players. The one constant has been the OL coach and after a while you can't give the guy the benefit of doubt anymore. I am convinced our issues with the OL are mostly a player development issue and we will continue to have these problems until we bring in someone who knows how to teach OL play/concepts.
Agreed. I don't recall when the offensive line was considered to be a strength of the team. There have been timed where the offensive line has played well under Cushing but not often enough in my view. How many first or second team All Big-Ten lineman have been developed under Cushing? How many offensive lineman have been drafted since he has been the position coach? Under Walker in a six year stretch, there were a few offensive linemen that were drafted or that made NFL practice squads. How many NFL offensive linemen have Iowa and Wisconsin produced since Cushing has been coach? Under Kevin Wilson, Indiana had a lineman taking in the first few rounds in back to back drafts. We passed on Ted Karras and he's on the Patriots. Take away Strief, and I am guessing we might be the only B1G team without an NFL lineman. I am not suggesting that post-season awards and developing NFL players is the best measurement of success but they are not unrelated either. The kids that we have recruited at offensive line are generally not rated below the rest of the position groups so why are they not having the same level of success?
Thanks. That is particularly unimpressive since there are more offensive linemen than any other position group and you don't need track speed to be great.
Did you listen to Lehman on BTN BIG Football and beyond where he took apart why the WIS defense worked? Based on a lot of trickery. No one else has figured out their D
A lot of us have seen and been frustrated by OL performance. It has been a continued problem for quite a while. And while I am not convinced problems have been solved, if I am going to come out against the group when they under perform, I need to give credit also when I see improvement. In the beginning of the year they were atrocious. By the end, they went pretty much unnoticed which is a good thing. Is it good enough at this point? I don't know. Better than it was for sure but not really sure whether it is actual OL improvement or other factors. Past performance keeps us all skeptical. If you see something specific that indicates continued issues, please let us know what they are
The in season improvement that you note is also part of the clear multi year pattern that has manifested itself. Last year's OL also improved significantly after starting out the year at illinois State looking like they could not block a pee wee league DL. Despite returning 4 of the starting OL that showed improved play during last season, the unit came back this year and once again started the year playing horrible. That's not just my opinion, FItz acknowledged the same himself. Why did the same four players who improved meaningfully during in season play last year, regress so much during the off season to start the season playing as poorly as they did? Why didn't the all the offseason work that they put in reinforce the habits and techniques that caused their play to improve during the previous season? The answer is pretty obvious to me.
I didn't, but I'll check it out. Thanks.
However, I'm assuming that deception impacts all positions on the offense. I can't imagine it would only impact the OL, so I will stand by my assertion that the OL didn't lose that game by itself. I can see how complex packages and deception could make things tough on the OL and QB. The line looked confused, Thorson made some awful decisions and the playcalling left a lot to be desired. That sounds like shared responsibility to me.
The OL criticism is not based on one game or even one season. This has been a multi year issue that shows no evidence of correcting itself without something changing.
I see problems with the way our overall offense (with a particular emphasis on OL play) starts seasons and positives with the way our offense has been finishing seasons. We'd like to improve on the former while continuing the latter. What I don't have enough information to know is the root of this phenomenon. Why do returning starters not perform at the level that they finished the previous season? What is the OL coach and offensive coordinator doing early in the season and how does it dovetail with what we see late in the season? Would we have performed well against Wisconsin if the game was November 18th instead of in September? Is the OL coach the reason for this phenomenon or are there other factors that I'm unaware of? How do recruiting hits and misses or injuries factor into the equation? I'd like to see improvements in our performance in September, but I don't want to see it come at the expense of the success I'm seeing overall. The Duke loss is the galling outlier this season, but I wouldn't in any way put that loss totally on the OL, so I'm not convinced that you or I have enough information to make the call. That's why PF gets the big bucks.
At the start of this season, last years LT was playing Guard, a true Freshman was playing RT, and a backup Center was playing LT. Out of frustration, they started a kid who had never started before at RT against PSU (Otterman).Kind of explains why the OL sucked IMHO. Once the LT returned to LT, and the Freshman RT got some experience, and the LG from last season (Butler) returned to LG, the line started to gel. The Cushing experiment was a total fiasco.
So, you wanted us to start the true freshman LT against Wisconsin and Penn State? What part does McCall play in all of this? How about Fitz? These decisions don't happen in a vacuum. IMHO, you and I don't know enough about why decisions were made, what players were doing in the offseason to prepare/improve, or what the internal dynamics of the unit are to make the call.
Huh?? The "true freshman" was Slater and he DID start against Wisconsin. Then Fitz started Otterman, a Soph who had no significant game experience against PSU, and he got abused. Hance was back at LT against Wisconsin and remained there the rest of the season. NU started the same OL from Maryland onward and won all 7 games from that point......
I would love to hear an honest, detailed explanation from Fitz for why they played OL 'musical chairs' at the start of the season and in preseason, and why we've had trouble producing all-B1G OL.
So, was that before or after Slater "got some experience"? My bad on the LT/RT typo, but I thought it was Cushing's experiment. Now Fitz started Otterman? So, is it Fitz and Cushing's experiment? How about McCall? Having Hance at LT was a solution, but not a solution against Wisconsin? I'm very confused about what your prescription here is. Is it the whole key to the OL just having Butler at LG? It seems like it is more than that to me.
Isn't the experiment mainly driven by the OL coach? I would be very surprised if Fitz were micromanaging whether Otterman or whoever starts or not. The OL coach would tell Fitz his recommendation for the starting lineup, and the reasons why, and Fitz would either approve or reject it. Knowing Fitz, he went along with what Cushing recommended. Then maybe had a heart-to-heart to discuss the failings of the experiment.
That would be really interesting and will never happen.
I admittedly know almost nothing about offensive line development but from what I have read through the years, it takes some muscle memory to just get used to switching from the right side to the left side (the Bears were hesitant to move Kyle Long because of that) and it definitely takes different skill sets and physical attributes to play guard/center and tackle. I get that kids are still growing and developing in college and college tackles often switch to the interior of the line in the pro's, but I would be really surprised if you are giving our offensive linemen the best chance to succeed by having them switch from the interior to the outside and vice versa during the course of fall camp. Maybe in spring ball - but most of the linemen should have a clear understanding of where they will be playing and what they should be working on during the summer and heading into camp.
Our OL should be good next year, only losing Brad North to graduation, and we have at least 3 really good candidates to replace him at center - Jared Thomas, Nick Urban, and my favorite Sam Gerak, who got the glowing endorsement from none other than Tyler Lancaster. So I hope this line doesn't get screwed up by poor coaching or some dubious experiment.
My prescription is simple: play the returning players in the same position they played last season. Who played LT last year? Hance. Start the season with him at LT, not LG. Who started at LG last year? Butler. Start him at LG this season, not Hance. This experiment of playing Thomas at LT and Hance at LG was just nots.
So you are advocating a repeat of the 2016 season when we had three returning starters playing at the same position? That did not work out too well either. That is when they came up with this idea of an open competition and moving players around.
Well, the guys are back in their original positions and have won 7 straight, so it doesn't look like that bad of a decision!
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