Just something to ponder
- Thread starter catsattackfor3
- Start date
You don't know what the Falk you are talking about, but let's try to Foster goodwill. Otherwise, I predict a Carmody of errors
When healthy (and eligible) that team had just as much talent.
Again, in the backcourt, the combo of Cobb and Hearn would have been just as good as BMac and Lindsey.
In fact, they would have been better defensively and had a viable PG reserve coming off the bench in Sobo.
Crawford and Swop are comparable to Law and Lumpkin (and better offensively).
Only position where the '12-13 team would have been weaker would have been at the center position (where would take Pardon over Olah any day).
That team arguable had a deeper bench w/ Sobo, Demps, Marco and Lumpkin.
Again, fully healthy and eligible.
What do you think would have happened last season if Law had gone down early to a season-ending injury, didn't gave the services of Lindsey due to (academic) eligibility and then Lumpkin suffered a season ending injury later in the season?
Not only that, Hearn also had some injuries issues that season - so the 'Cats suffered thru injuries or eligibility for 4 of their best players that season.
And if Lumpkin hadn't suffered a broken hand (after a bout of mono), he wouldn't have gotten a medical RS and there would have been no Lumpkin last season and likely no Tourney bid.
the program historically only made the NITs once every 4-5 years (if that)
Every 25 years actually.
So BCs last team just wasn’t as good (no mention of injuries), but CCs is a question of chemistry? Interesting. Oh, that’s right, Bmac missed one and a half games. He was really on a tear before that though.
Swop was great. And Hearn who you glance over is the first NBA player since Esch, for Christ’s sake. Think anyone on this roster is gonna sniff the NBA?
Maybe CC can get some NBA talent on this team like BC did and we wouldn’t be in 10th place to go with his 11th, 9th and 10th other finishes.
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It's a fun topic and all, but Devin Nunes called and needs you back in the office to finish up that memo you were working on.
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Angry he sounds but successful is not now I would describe ccc’s term at NU. He has landed better talent than recent memory and he brought us to the dance. Both to be commended. But his body of work in the results produced by the team is not ‘success.’
I like ccc but I have been concerned that he may not be a great coach. Great guy, great recruiter, yet to see evidence of great coach.
Collins doesn’t have to be great at everything. He does what he does well and has to surround himself with assistants that fill in his weak spots.
He has been successful in a number of ways, all of which seem to feed the irrational hate in Mystic and a few others.
Sad. Very sad.
He has been successful in a number of ways, all of which seem to feed the irrational hate in Mystic and a few others.
Sad. Very sad.
I don't know that you're winning the argument by pointing out that the only Carmody player in 13 years at NU was from that very small pool that wasn't recruited by the staff.
I liked Carmody, loved Hearn, but not sure that one wins you points.
It’s not hate, and it’s perfectly rational. Just the facts, ma’am.
5 years:
1 postseason
3 losing records
3 of CCs 5 sos are weaker than any of BCs 13
First full team an rpi of 160 and dropping
Average conference finish 9th place
That’s not hate: it’s just crappy.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/northwestern/
He was recruited. It was an arrangement. It’s not like they bumped into each other shooting hoops and struck up a conversation. Plus he coached him for 4 years. Katatonic made several good points and someone tried to lump Hearn into the pile with Ash and Brown and Vassar. Just a little reality check from the facts department.
How many winning B1G records does CC have?
And for the past 2 seasons. the B1G hasn't been as strong of a conf.
So, injuries were a major reason for this season being a loss, but wasn't for the 2012-13 season? lol!!
Injuries were more of a problem for 2012-13 with Cobb's suspension on top of that.
This is why it's been difficult to have a logical discussion - as certain things only apply to one and not the other.
The biggest limitations Cobb had was staying healthy (and remaining eligible).
Cobb was one of the few NU players who could create his own shot, and despite being a 2, could bring the ball up the court and distribute it fairly well.
In addition (when healthy), he was a plus defender.
For having so-called limitations - Cobb (when healthy) was as good as Lindsey, and he didn't sulk and play lax D when things weren't going his way.
Who cares if Hearn was a walk-on?
He was one tough SOB who had a bit of Jitim in him and could score in the paint.
Will BMac and Lindsey make it to the show?
And while due to BMac, the latter may have the edge when it comes to ball distribution, Cobb and Hearn are the better defensive duo by far.
Think Swop was more than just OK.
While it took some time for Swop to find his footing (playing in the Princeton O and playing w/ new players), he really started to come on before he got injured a little more than halfway thru the B1G slate.
Swop avg'd 9.7 ppg, 6.7 rpg (highest Law has avg'd is 5.8 rpg) and shot .451 from the field - which is a good bit better than what BMac, Lindsey or Law have ever done.
So Swop was a more efficient scorer than Law while being as good of a defender/rebounder, or in comparison to Lumpkin, as good of a defender/rebounder and a good bit more of a scorer.
Which is what I had already stated (Law being the better defender and the Crawford the better scorer, but overall, a wash).
Stated the same thing, but let's not totally dismiss Olah who became a pretty decent B1G center.
Remember, Olah was a frosh during the 2012-13 season while Pardon was a soph last season.
In Olah's 2nd year, he put up 9.1 ppg and 5.2 rpg and in his 3rd year avg'd 11.7 ppg and 6.9 rpg which is very similar to Pardon's #s for his 2nd and 3d years.
But even w/ similar stats, prefer a smaller, more agile center.
Really?
How did this team look w/o Lumpkin (not to mention Tap)?
Lumpkin was not only a leader on the team, but as CC stated, the glue-guy (something the team sorely needed this season).
What they also missed was Lumpkin's D (esp. his versatility on being able to defend all 5 positions).
It's not like last season's team made it to the Tourney on the strength of their O (saw plenty of ugly, low scoring games which was won w/ D).
In terms of efficiency on O last season, the 'Cats were only 122nd.
When it came to defensive efficiency, the 'Cats were a much better 42nd.
This season, the 'Cats have dropped all the way down to 105th for defensive efficiency and to 175th on O - so,a far greater drop on the defensive end.
Speaking about offensive efficiency, that has been an issue for CC's teams and something that he will need to improve.
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That's not how Hearn described it when he wrote a multi-part article about his experience. But then every coach in college basketball missed on Hearn.
Really surprised that you and the "likes " seem to think that they would trade Collins for Falk, Foster or Carmody. Sorry but I do feel that I know what I'm Falking talking about.
At least this "turning the corner" includes having an actual NCAA tourney game (and win ) behind us.
Jaren Sina was not a top 100. He was listed as a 3 star and #121 (if you had said top 150 you might have had a point but in BCs 13th year???) . And looking at his career at Seton Hall and GW indicates tht BMac was a better option. MT1 was a transfer (so doesn't really count as a recruit) and we know how that went.
By comparison, CCC got Law (4 star number 103) in his first class. And the incoming class has 3 top 150s and two of them are top 100
Sorry but I don't think we had a shot for a bid before last year. Why? Losing record in the BIG. And the only time we didn't, we had a losing record overall. Last year we had that winning record in the BIG and 23 wins by the time we got our bid.
Actually we gain 6 or 6.5. Turner will be eligible. RAP will hopefully be healthy and Falzon might be more fully recovered. My potential concern is shortage of guards.
Well best class in last 20 at least and likely the closes those other classes can come is maybe equal to this years class.
This is pretty disingenuous to a great Wildcat.
You do know that Reggie is the only former Northwestern player currently on an NBA roster, right?
HAHAHA! The hate is obvious in your compete inability to let it go and move forward. Don’t waste your time trying to rationalize your rage, therapy would be a better use of your time. ;-
I wouldn't count on much from Rap next year. He will have been away from competitive basketball for 2 seasons and need plenty of work to get his timing and legs under him. See him more of a long term project at this point.
Both Sina (and Cobb) were top 100-4 stars at the time of their commitments.
While Sina would have fit in the PO quite well, it's a bit of a stretch to think he would have outperformed BMac. NU clearly benefited from that trade off.
That's my recollection as well.
Cobb had some physical gifts and a skill set that we had had not seen prior and haven't seen since. It can be a brutal sport and he broke down a bit.
We had a team that was thin before the in season injuries. We were down a scholly, Turner not eligible because of having to sit our for the transfer, Rap out really before season started and Falzon having lingering effects of his injury. We were down to 9 before we started. Throw in early foul trouble and then injuries and we were really depth challenged. Then the added minutes for guys and the the screwy schedule and we were an injury short of disaster. When those injurys occurred, we were toast.
And what percent of a coaches job is about the talent they bring in? Don't bring it in and it is touch being successful. Have enough and it is hard to not be successful
It depends how you define "successful". Carmody was terrible at bringing in talent yet was a Big 10 Coach Of The Year and multiple 20-game winner. If success is defined as getting to the NCAA year after year, talent is more critical than x's and o's IMHO. Tim Miles is Exhibit A: he was on the hot seat after last season, brought in talent and now sits ont he cusp of the NCAA Tournament. He didn't become a better coach over the summer, he just got guys who could play at a high level. Same with Pat Chambers at PSU. Izzo wasn't a bad coach last season when he had a host of injuries, now the team is healthy with 2 future NBA players and a likely #1 seed.
I think you and I have a different idea of what "talent" is. Reggie Hearn is playing in the NBA. As such, I wouldn't dismiss him as "a over achieving walk-on". I suspect our entire senior class hopes to be able to "over achieve" like Reggie. I'm likewise flummoxed by your disbelief over the suggestion that we may not have made the tournament without Lumpkin. If basketball was just about how many points you scored per game, ECat would be arguing that Lebron can't touch Pete Maravich in the GOAT conversation. "Heck, he may not even make my top 5 with the Pistol, the Ice Man, Nique, and Melo!"
Correction...the Cobb and Hearn backcourt would have been better defensively, but would have struggled to score anywhere nearly as effectively as BMac and Lindsey. Alternately, I think Crawford and Swop would have been better scorers, but Law and Lumpkin would have been subtantially better defensively.
No one saw Hearn's game in high school. He was the biggest guy on his team so he played center. No one saw the skill set needed for guard or small forward.
Playing in Ft. Wayne and being more interested in academics didn't help either.
I would not take anyone over a fully-health Cobb. Prior to his senior year draft boards had him going middle of the second round. Collins openly talked about having the tools needed to play pro.
His body didn't cooperate.
Both were listed as three stars by the time they got here. I know at one time Cobb was listed as a 4 star but then dropped back. I never recall Sina as being listed as a 4 star and you have to be there generally to sniff top 100. Rivals listed him as #121. So by the time they were in a position to come (LOI) , neither was top 100. Whereas both Nance and Kopp after signing are still well into top 100 and Lathon is still a 4 star and well into top 150
Definitely.
By the time he was an upperclassmen at NU though, it was clear Reggie was a talented player (regardless of work ethic, you can't land on an NBA roster without raw ability)...something Willy was quite dismissive of (and hence my response).
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Interesting take. It's hard to separate out the injuries, but it's hard for me to not pick BMac over everyone. That said, Cobb had some really special attributes...and really so do Hearn and Scottie. They are all very different players. I can't help wondering if Reggie could have had a special impact on Scottie. Or if a healthy Cobb and BMac could have made NU a perennial NCAA team. Basketball coaching is a bit of alchemy...it's not just piling up the highest ranked recruits or the guys with the best scoring averages that leads to wins. You have to be a bit of a magic mixologist.
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