Nance/Young

[EagerFan]

I watched a chunk of that NC second half and goodness that team looks terrible. Pete did ok, but not great, in his limited minutes, but they really seem like an 'I'm gonna get my shot" kinda team, and there seemed to be no effort to get Pete an open look when none of the rest of them could make a three to save a life.

But I'm confident they'll go to the tourney because they're NC, so they must deserve to be there.

 

[GatoLouco]

Gato is right

You OK buddy?

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Getting rid of Nance changed everything for Wildcats.

"Getting rid of" is inaccurate, because Nance left on his own and we surely begged him to stay.

As often happens, when you are doing something wrong (playing Nance as a stretch 5) and fate prevents you from doing that, thats an opportunity to improve. Collins, to his credit, is playing much more to the strengths of his roster this season.

However, Its fair to say that Nance is somewhat on the soft (finesse) side, but so is Beran. One finesse guy is ok. Two finesse guys as your starting frontcourt is a problem in the Big Ten.

 

[Hungry Jack]

"Getting rid of" is inaccurate, because Nance left on his own and we surely begged him to stay.

As often happens, when you are doing something wrong (playing Nance as a stretch 5) and fate prevents you from doing that, thats an opportunity to improve. Collins, to his credit, is playing much more to the strengths of his roster this season.

However, Its fair to say that Nance is somewhat on the soft (finesse) side, but so is Beran. One finesse guy is ok. Two finesse guys as your starting frontcourt is a problem in the Big Ten.

Hasn't Beran become a much better defender than Nance? I know the offensive game does not always show, but I am starting to see Beran as a "glue" guy with some diverse and valuable skills.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Hasn't Beran become a much better defender than Nance? I know the offensive game does not always show, but I am starting to see Beran as a "glue" guy with some diverse and valuable skills.

maybe so. It seems like everybody on the team has improved defensively. Pete was always a little stiff, so Beran has an agility advantage. Had Pete stuck around, Lowery would have helped him too, I think.

 

[GatoLouco]

Hasn't Beran become a much better defender than Nance? I know the offensive game does not always show, but I am starting to see Beran as a "glue" guy with some diverse and valuable skills.

My opinion is that, last year, Beran was marginally better than Pete staying with a ball handler off a switch. Bit better lateral movement.

Pete was an inch taller and with longer arms so he bothered others more under the basket as well as coming to help from the weak side.

How would Pete stack versus Beran this year, if he was playing the 4 for us, and being coached by Lowery? No clue.

 

[EagerFan]

In last night's game, it looked to me like Pete was playing the 5 again.

Beran has improved a lot of the course of this year as a defender. He still has problems, but he was pretty easy to blow by or trip up last year (as was Pete), which often caused a defensive collapse as the rest of the team tried to adjust to that. I can't say if Pete would buy in and work as hard as Beran has this year, but if he did and played at the 4, I think the team would be stronger for his (sometimes seen) offense.

But it's just idle speculation. He didn't stay and Beran is getting it done on D.

I still hold out hope Beran is working hard on a quicker release and will become a more common shooting threat in the waning days of this season. Not every time he gets the ball, but like Berry a couple of quick pops from him could help spread the opposing D a bit more to the Cats benefit. Especially if he makes one or two of them in the first half.

 

[NJCat]

In last night's game, it looked to me like Pete was playing the 5 again.

Maybe on defense, but on O Bacot is the Center and Pete drifts around the 3 point line.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

You OK buddy?

All this winning has numbed my senses. You and PWB are now my favorite BB posters. If we beat Indiana, I might add Bob to the list! I am Giddy.

 

[clarificationcat]

"Getting rid of" is inaccurate, because Nance left on his own and we surely begged him to stay.

As often happens, when you are doing something wrong (playing Nance as a stretch 5) and fate prevents you from doing that, thats an opportunity to improve. Collins, to his credit, is playing much more to the strengths of his roster this season.

However, Its fair to say that Nance is somewhat on the soft (finesse) side, but so is Beran. One finesse guy is ok. Two finesse guys as your starting frontcourt is a problem in the Big Ten.

Pete was far, far more effective offensively as a stretch 5. He has almost no game with his back to the basket and he is not quick or shifty enough to create his own shot against athletic 3's or 4's. He absolutely struggled to guard the post against true centers but playing as a stretch 5 definitely helped him offensively. He had a very good year on offense. Far, far better than this year playing the 4.

As much as folks want to rip last year's team, as I have pointed out way too many times, we were in a lot of games last year against very good teams in the last couple of minutes. We were 5 and 12 in games decided by 5 points or less (I think that's what I heard on Sunday's broadcast). Scheme was not the issue. Our offense and defense were good enough to put us in a position to win games. If Audige were healthy and we had run the offense through the guards in the last couple of minutes rather than Nance (or they (mainly Pete) had just made some timely free throws), we could have easily won 3 more games in the conference and been in a position to be a bubble team in one of the stronger years in the conference.

And I don't think Beran is soft on defense at all. He struggles mightily to score at the rim but he is very tough on defense. He can guard smaller guys on switches and does not get pushed around in the post. Generally, there are no easy baskets around the rim with Beran and Nicholson.

 

[GatoLouco]

All this winning has numbed my senses. You and PWB are now my favorite BB posters. If we beat Indiana, I might add Bob to the list! I am Giddy.

 

[IGNORE2]

All this winning has numbed my senses. You and PWB are now my favorite BB posters. If we beat Indiana, I might add Bob to the list! I am Giddy.

Wait, you mean I’m not already?

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Wait, you mean I’m not already?

You still trail Gato and PWB, but you are climbing with a bullet.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Meanwhile, after Pete put up 2 points (on 1-5 shooting) in 30 minutes in a home loss to Miami on Monday...
Young only got 9 minutes, but scored 6 points and grabbed 8 rebounds (4 offensive, 4 defensive) in a 68-64 win over struggling Note Dame.

The freshman Young is supporting, Top 3 recruit Dereck Lively, attempted a post move and bricked a layup, which did not reach the rim.

 

[NUCat320]

Pete was far, far more effective offensively as a stretch 5. He has almost no game with his back to the basket and he is not quick or shifty enough to create his own shot against athletic 3's or 4's. He absolutely struggled to guard the post against true centers but playing as a stretch 5 definitely helped him offensively. He had a very good year on offense. Far, far better than this year playing the 4.

As much as folks want to rip last year's team, as I have pointed out way too many times, we were in a lot of games last year against very good teams in the last couple of minutes. We were 5 and 12 in games decided by 5 points or less (I think that's what I heard on Sunday's broadcast). Scheme was not the issue. Our offense and defense were good enough to put us in a position to win games. If Audige were healthy and we had run the offense through the guards in the last couple of minutes rather than Nance (or they (mainly Pete) had just made some timely free throws), we could have easily won 3 more games in the conference and been in a position to be a bubble team in one of the stronger years in the conference.

And I don't think Beran is soft on defense at all. He struggles mightily to score at the rim but he is very tough on defense. He can guard smaller guys on switches and does not get pushed around in the post. Generally, there are no easy baskets around the rim with Beran and Nicholson.

I enjoy the difference in our offensive 5 this season.

Last year, our 5 would come set a screen, then slip it and get a handoff at the top of the circle and nothing would happen.

This year, the action is the same, except our 5 sets a screen and our 1 uses a screen and sometimes it’s a Nicholbomb, and other times it’s a Boo up-and-under.

UNC in February 2023 probably doesn’t look so different from UNC in February 2022, except for the cooler hair last year.

 

[GatoLouco]

I enjoy the difference in our offensive 5 this season.

Last year, our 5 would come set a screen, then slip it and get a handoff at the top of the circle and nothing would happen.

This year, the action is the same, except our 5 sets a screen and our 1 uses a screen and sometimes it’s a Nicholbomb, and other times it’s a Boo up-and-under.

UNC in February 2023 probably doesn’t look so different from UNC in February 2022, except for the cooler hair last year.

Last year I saw zero NC ball. This year I saw a bit. But can see why they could do what they did last year.

Those are feral guards. No interest in (or awareness of) letting the offense flow. They want to score. The ball sticks to those guard's hands. They so often just (eventually) let the ball go when they have exhausted trying to score themselves. Not in the flow of offense, not dishing it to teammates in good positions. Too many forced shots for themselves and teammates as a result.

But they are also really, really good one on one players. Quick, strong, technically gifted.

For me, they are the most annoying profile of players. The ones that are so individually capable, yet so tactically inept (or unwilling I guess).

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

All this winning has numbed my senses. You and PWB are now my favorite BB posters. If we beat Indiana, I might add Bob to the list! I am Giddy.

You are now on the list Bob.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Sagarin now has...

North Carolina at #32 (84.90)
Northwestern at #36 (84.17)
Duke at #38 (84.07)

Even though I felt pretty good about NU hoops coming into the season, I did not expect that.

 

[NJCat]

Sagarin now has...

North Carolina at #32 (84.90)
Northwestern at #36 (84.17)
Duke at #38 (84.07)

Even though I felt pretty good about NU hoops coming into the season, I did not expect that.

I didn't expect ANY of those 3 Sagarins.

 

[SmellyCat]

Through games of Tuesday, there are only five teams in the country with five or more wins against the current Sagarin top 25:

Purdue 6-2
Iowa 6-2
Tennessee 5-1
Northwestern 5-3
Indiana 5-5

Beat Iowa.

 

[Rebel II]

Vs 'Cuse Young is a back up to a back up. Absolutely no role in the lopsided victory. How are Nance and UNC doing?

 

[NJCat]

Vs 'Cuse Young is a back up to a back up. Absolutely no role in the lopsided victory. How are Nance and UNC doing?

Pete is having a bad year. And UNC in one f the latest dopey brackets is "first four out". A dismal year by Tar Heel standards.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Nance has been battling a back injury all year. So keep in mind the what that did to Audige last year. You aren’t the same player battling a nagging injury as you are healthy.

 

[Catreporter]

Nance looked healthy today but when he relieved Bacot at the five he got handled on defense by NC State's big guy (Purple White Guy was right about not playing him there). Carolina went down again. Would love to see them miss the tourney with all their highly paid NIL stars.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Hasn't Beran become a much better defender than Nance? I know the offensive game does not always show, but I am starting to see Beran as a "glue" guy with some diverse and valuable skills.

Maybe so, but Beran was not a better defender last year, and so who is to say that Lowery and the approach CCC took to emphasize defense would not have seen the same improvement in Nance's defensive game as we've seen with every other player not named Audige (who was the only one that was already there)?

 

[EvanstonCat]

Through games of Tuesday, there are only five teams in the country with five or more wins against the current Sagarin top 25:

Purdue 6-2
Iowa 6-2
Tennessee 5-1
Northwestern 5-3
Indiana 5-5

Beat Iowa.

Its funny that IU gets ranked higher (as high as 8th per the guy in the Athletic) despite having a worse overall and conference record and having been swept by us, supposedly on the strength of their schedule. Yet we have more Quad 1 wins, and the same number of wins against the Sagarin top 25. They have played 2 more top 25 teams, but lost them both. That gets them ranked higher?

Hoosier daddy? Northwestern's your daddy, bitch.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Maybe so, but Beran was not a better defender last year, and so who is to say that Lowery and the approach CCC took to emphasize defense would not have seen the same improvement in Nance's defensive game as we've seen with every other player not named Audige (who was the only one that was already there)?

Beran was damn good defender last year. Nance I think is a better defender than Beran. Beran is better at the perimeter but Nance is taller and longer. Better help and post defender. Both great defenders at the 4. Nance would have fit very well in Berans role on this team.

Ty berry also has shown very quick hands and defensive chops since he’s got here. Roper was surprisingly solid at defense especially for a freshman. Biggest jump imo is big Matt.

 

[clarificationcat]

Beran was damn good defender last year. Nance I think is a better defender than Beran. Beran is better at the perimeter but Nance is taller and longer. Better help and post defender. Both great defenders at the 4. Nance would have fit very well in Berans role on this team.

Ty berry also has shown very quick hands and defensive chops since he’s got here. Roper was surprisingly solid at defense especially for a freshman. Biggest jump imo is big Matt.

Since Nance has played poorly most of the year, thought he deserved a shout out for playing really well today in a win against Virginia. Finally shot well from 3 but also played really well at the 5 in the last 10 minutes when Bacot got in foul trouble. Had 4 blocks and altered a bunch of shots. I don’t think Virginia has a dominant center so that helped.

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

Looks like Nance’s college career is over.

 

[NUCat320]

For what it’s worth, Young is where we (I) expected him to be when the transfer was announced. When I first saw the Duke score yesterday, it was 69-39 (nice!) Duke, and Young hadn’t gotten off the bench yet.

As it stands, he played 12 minutes in a 96-69 (palindrome! Nice!) win over Pitt.

Also, we’ll see if Pitt’s quality win over NU is enough for them to sneak in. Probably will be, in ‘potential first-round rematch’ (?), seeding-wise anyway, territory.

 

[GatoLouco]

For what it’s worth, Young is where we (I) expected him to be when the transfer was announced. When I first saw the Duke score yesterday, it was 69-39 (nice!) Duke, and Young hadn’t gotten off the bench yet.

As it stands, he played 12 minutes in a 96-69 (palindrome! Nice!) win over Pitt.

Also, we’ll see if Pitt’s quality win over NU is enough for them to sneak in. Probably will be, in ‘potential first-round rematch’ (?), seeding-wise anyway, territory.

1) Nice

2) Duke was picked as the favorite to win the ACC tourney. They are, by far, at the strongest they've been all season. A team with so many youngsters tends to have steeper learning curve within season.

3) There's a case Young was instrumental in allowing #2 to happen. That, without him, they might be missing the tournament. I am quite confident that, unlike with Nance, the Dookies are happy with what they got

4) Cappy, please don't delete my gif 😲

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

If Young makes the NCAA tournament with Duke and Nance misses the tournament with UNC, the preseason #1, then karma has spoken the truth about last year's Wildcat squad.

Unless Young sits on the bench throughout a first round loss.

 

[clarificationcat]

If Young makes the NCAA tournament with Duke and Nance misses the tournament with UNC, the preseason #1, then karma has spoken the truth about last year's Wildcat squad.

Unless Young sits on the bench throughout a first round loss.

OK. Sure. Duke was 3 and 5 in the conference when Young played 20 minutes or more in a game. They were 11-1 when he played less than 20 minutes.

And let's not make it seem like Duke was some scrappy underdog. They had one of the top 5 recruiting classes in the country.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

OK. Sure. Duke was 3 and 5 in the conference when Young played 20 minutes or more in a game. They were 11-1 when he played less than 20 minutes.

And let's not make it seem like Duke was some scrappy underdog. They had one of the top 5 recruiting classes in the country.

Young is the backup. The starter, Dereck Lively, is a Top 5 freshman.
Young's minutes have diminished as Lively has become a force.
Everybody knows this.

The losses you cite are all road games.
28 minutes in an OT loss at Virginia.
27 minutes in a 3 point loss at Virginia Tech in late January.
24 minutes in an 8 point loss at Clemson in mid January.
20 minutes in a 24 point loss at NC State in the first week of January.
35 minutes in an 11 point loss at Wake Forest in December, when Lively didn't play.

In the non-conference, Young played 20 or more minutes against Iowa, Ohio State, Kansas, Xavier and Oregon State. Duke won 4 of those games, with a 5 point loss to Kansas.

He's had a very good year and I'm happy for him.

 

[clarificationcat]

Young is the backup. The starter, Dereck Lively, is a Top 5 freshman.
Young's minutes have diminished as Lively has become a force.
Everybody knows this.

The losses you cite are all road games.
28 minutes in an OT loss at Virginia.
27 minutes in a 3 point loss at Virginia Tech in late January.
24 minutes in an 8 point loss at Clemson in mid January.
20 minutes in a 24 point loss at NC State in the first week of January.
35 minutes in an 11 point loss at Wake Forest in December, when Lively didn't play.

In the non-conference, Young played 20 or more minutes against Iowa, Ohio State, Kansas, Xavier and Oregon State. Duke won 4 of those games, with a 5 point loss to Kansas.

He's had a very good year and I'm happy for him.

Got it! Just thought a plus/minus guy like you would find it interesting that 5 of their 6 losses in conference were when he played 20 minutes or more. And 3 and 5 (at any venue) is a Northwestern like record.

I'm happy for him too. And he has had a good year. But folks can't wish him well without bashing Nance, which I think is weird and petty.

Young has had a nice year but Duke doesn't need him to contribute to win. In fact, they have gotten better the less he plays. He's a huge defensive liability and that often outweighs all the other good things that he does. If Young couldn't play, do you think that would affect the odds of Duke winning the NCAA tournament?

North Carolina and Nance had disappointing seasons. But Nance was playing 30 minutes and finishing games. They needed him on the floor. He was just a bad shooter this year (32% from 3 and 42% overall v. 45% from 3 and 49% overall last year). If North Carolina had consistent guard play, they would have made the tournament even with Nance's shooting struggles.

 

[FeralFelidae]

I'm happy for him too. And he has had a good year. But folks can't wish him well without bashing Nance, which I think is weird and petty.

I have nothing against Nance. Most people weren't advocating for Young to play instead of Nance; we were baffled that Collins refused to play them at the same time.

 

[EagerFan]

Young has had a nice year but Duke doesn't need him to contribute to win. In fact, they have gotten better the less he plays. He's a huge defensive liability and that often outweighs all the other good things that he does. If Young couldn't play, do you think that would affect the odds of Duke winning the NCAA tournament?

This seems a bit short-sighted to me. What Young has done for Duke is give the first year stars time to adjust to the jump to D1, and as they have adjusted his time has diminished. Which, I think, has always been Duke's game plan. I think Duke's record would be worse and their seeding worse without Young's contributions to the team.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Got it! Just thought a plus/minus guy like you would find it interesting that 5 of their 6 losses in conference were when he played 20 minutes or more. And 3 and 5 (at any venue) is a Northwestern like record.

I'm happy for him too. And he has had a good year. But folks can't wish him well without bashing Nance, which I think is weird and petty.

Young has had a nice year but Duke doesn't need him to contribute to win. In fact, they have gotten better the less he plays. He's a huge defensive liability and that often outweighs all the other good things that he does. If Young couldn't play, do you think that would affect the odds of Duke winning the NCAA tournament?

North Carolina and Nance had disappointing seasons. But Nance was playing 30 minutes and finishing games. They needed him on the floor. He was just a bad shooter this year (32% from 3 and 42% overall v. 45% from 3 and 49% overall last year). If North Carolina had consistent guard play, they would have made the tournament even with Nance's shooting struggles.

There is no doubt that Lively is the better player - now. He has made significant progress. But if you look at the conference numbers, it shows that Young has been quite helpful for Duke.

Player	Mins	FG	FGA	OReb	DReb	Assts	Blocks	TO	FTs
Lively	379	47	70	44	64	20	48	13	13-19
Young	370	55	79	43	73	30	11	19	32-41

Young dunked last night against Pitt. Wide open on the baseline. Two handed. Ball barely cleared the rim, in fact the rim dislodged the ball somewhat from his hands because he was too low.

Young's +/- for the season is +109, Lively is +93 (that includes all games - I can't find conference only)

I still root for Pete Nance, but this season has not worked out well for him at all.

 

[clarificationcat]

There is no doubt that Lively is the better player - now. He has made significant progress. But if you look at the conference numbers, it shows that Young has been quite helpful for Duke.

Player	Mins	FG	FGA	OReb	DReb	Assts	Blocks	TO	FTs
Lively	379	47	70	44	64	20	48	13	13-19
Young	370	55	79	43	73	30	11	19	32-41

Young dunked last night against Pitt. Wide open on the baseline. Two handed. Ball barely cleared the rim, in fact the rim dislodged the ball somewhat from his hands because he was too low.

Young's +/- for the season is +109, Lively is +93 (that includes all games - I can't find conference only)

I still root for Pete Nance, but this season has not worked out well for him at all.

Young's numbers always look good for the most part, other than blocks. It's on the defensive side that is the issue. In the few times I have seen him play recently, I thought the other team was trying to get him into switches so they could get to the rim. And they were very effective at it. It's not from lack of effort or technique. He's just undersized and lacks hops and quickness. That's a bad combination for protecting the rim (but interestingly does not hold him back from being one of the best offensive rebounders in the country) or running out on shooters. If we played Duke with him on the floor, we would try to get him isolated on Buie every single time and I think it would be extremely effective.

 

[NUCat320]

Jon Scheyer looks like a manager. He should wear a suit or at least a mock turtleneck or something.