OT: And now Pippen thinks he's Lebron

[shakes3858]

http://www.slamonline.com/nba/scott...ames-before-lebron-james/#LVod6T7OZFGJUsHM.97

Combine that with Pippen's assertion that Jordan was just a scorer and that Lebron is better.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6599168

If Pippen=Lebron and Lebron>Jordan then Scottie Pippen=assclown

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

I think you're OCDing on this, shakes.

 

[EvanstonCat]

http://www.slamonline.com/nba/scott...ames-before-lebron-james/#LVod6T7OZFGJUsHM.97

Combine that with Pippen's assertion that Jordan was just a scorer and that Lebron is better.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6599168

If Pippen=Lebron and Lebron>Jordan then Scottie Pippen=assclown

Pippen is ridiculous. Phil Jackson knows his superstars, and what does it say about Scottie that he gave the ball to Kukoc. Ouch.

One thing I agree with Pippen is that Lebron is much closer to Pippen than he is to Jordan. Neither Pip nor Lebron are on the same level as the GOAT.

 

[shakes3858]

I think you're OCDing on this, shakes.

We all have our things we like to rant about. It can be the meaningfulness of star ratings, Bill Carmody, OSU less than reputable activities, or the overratedness of Scottie Pippen. The message board gives us an outlet.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

We all have our things we like to rant about. It can be the meaningfulness of star ratings, Bill Carmody,......

Don't get me started!! LOL

 

[shakes3858]

Pippen is ridiculous. Phil Jackson knows his superstars, and what does it say about Scottie that he gave the ball to Kukoc. Ouch.

One thing I agree with Pippen is that Lebron is much closer to Pippen than he is to Jordan. Neither Pip nor Lebron are on the same level as the GOAT.

Good point on Jackson and Kukoc. I think Lebron is closer to Jordan though. I think Lebron will go down as one of the top 5-15 greatest players of all time and I'm glad I've gotten to watch him. Pippen is in the greatest 250-1000 players of all time (although he's listed in the top 50 players on the NBA's 50th anniversary bla bla bla I disagree with that list). I'm just saying 10 is closer to 1 than it is to 400.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Good point on Jackson and Kukoc. I think Lebron is closer to Jordan though. I think Lebron will go down as one of the top 5-15 greatest players of all time and I'm glad I've gotten to watch him. Pippen is in the greatest 250-1000 players of all time (although he's listed in the top 50 players on the NBA's 50th anniversary bla bla bla I disagree with that list). I'm just saying 10 is closer to 1 than it is to 400.

That's fair, and probably accurate. I guess I see the GOAT on a level of his own. Everyone else is a mere mortal. But, yeah, otherwise your relative rankings seem pretty spot on.

 

[clarificationcat]

Good point on Jackson and Kukoc. I think Lebron is closer to Jordan though. I think Lebron will go down as one of the top 5-15 greatest players of all time and I'm glad I've gotten to watch him. Pippen is in the greatest 250-1000 players of all time (although he's listed in the top 50 players on the NBA's 50th anniversary bla bla bla I disagree with that list). I'm just saying 10 is closer to 1 than it is to 400.

Bill Russell must not have been a great player either. He seldom took the last shot. It's all about the scoring with you two.

Your shallow understanding of basketball is always amusing. Suggesting that there are 249 players better than Pippen is such a stupid comment that there is no need to respond. You guys know more than NBA players, coaches and writers. Larry Bird, Chuck Daley and even Jordan are all wrong about Pippen. And advanced statistics are meaningless, too.

Pippen's point, I think, was that Lebron's overall game is more similar to Pippen's than Jordan's. Lebron would be much more comfortable being a facilitator and getting 25 points with 8 rebounds and 8 assists than a guy putting up 40 points every night. He's obviously a much better player than Pippen and Pippen would never dispute that.

 

[Medill90]

http://www.slamonline.com/nba/scott...ames-before-lebron-james/#LVod6T7OZFGJUsHM.97

Combine that with Pippen's assertion that Jordan was just a scorer and that Lebron is better.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6599168

If Pippen=Lebron and Lebron>Jordan then Scottie Pippen=assclown

The comparison of Pippen and Lebron is ridiculous. Yes, Pippen's game was to facilitate, but as Charles Barkley said, he wasn't going to get you 30 pts. and 10 rebounds on a regular basis.

Comparing Lebron and Jordan is equally dumb. Completely different games.

Lebron has a physical stature that neither Pippen nor Jordan approach. Lebron can physically intimidate a lot of 4's and he can forcefully defend many 5's.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Comparing Lebron and Jordan is equally dumb. Completely different games.
Lebron has a physical stature that neither Pippen nor Jordan approach. Lebron can physically intimidate a lot of 4's and he can forcefully defend many 5's.

Lebron has repeatedly proven he's the mentally weakest of the three, checking out of many an important game throughout his career. He's also the least efficient offensively in big games, considering the number of touches he gets (if one looks beyond sheer points scored and looks at FG%, etc.).

 

[Styre]

Lebron has repeatedly proven he's the mentally weakest of the three, checking out of many an important game throughout his career.

But Pippen once got mad that Phil drew up a game-winning play for Kukoc, so Pippen obviously has no mental fortitude!

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

But Pippen once got mad that Phil drew up a game-winning play for Kukoc, so Pippen obviously has no mental fortitude!

That was pretty low rent by Pippen. But that kind if thing has repeatedly happened to Lebron...and that's not deniable. He is certainly known to check out of games...especially big ones when losing...

 

[hdhntr1]

Good point on Jackson and Kukoc. I think Lebron is closer to Jordan though. I think Lebron will go down as one of the top 5-15 greatest players of all time and I'm glad I've gotten to watch him. Pippen is in the greatest 250-1000 players of all time (although he's listed in the top 50 players on the NBA's 50th anniversary bla bla bla I disagree with that list). I'm just saying 10 is closer to 1 than it is to 400.

Pippen is the#5 SF of all time. A lot of that is based on his overall game and his outstanding D which you choose to ignore. At 5th all time at his position, he fits in the top 50 far better than in the 250-1000 range you suggest. He was the second player on a decade long dynasty.

 

[shakes3858]

Pippen is the#5 SF of all time. A lot of that is based on his overall game and his outstanding D which you choose to ignore. At 5th all time at his position, he fits in the top 50 far better than in the 250-1000 range you suggest. He was the second player on a decade long dynasty.

Bird, Lebron, Havlicek, Erving, Worthy, Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry, Adrian Dantley, Kevin Durant, Bernard King, Grant Hill, Shawn Marion, Paul Pierce, Alex English, Chris Mullin

 

[Medill90]

I like your list for discussion purposes Shakes....Pippen makes my top 10 but he's not top 5.

How good was Bernard King? One of my favorites of all time.

 

[shakes3858]

I like your list for discussion purposes Shakes....Pippen makes my top 10 but he's not top 5.

How good was Bernard King? One of my favorites of all time.

Amazing scorer. I'd put the ball in hands at the end of a game. Great game face too. Did you see the 30 for 30 Bernie and Ernie?

 

[Styre]

Bird, Lebron, Havlicek, Erving, Worthy, Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry, Adrian Dantley, Kevin Durant, Bernard King, Grant Hill, Shawn Marion, Paul Pierce, Alex English, Chris Mullin

Assuming that's in order, I'd put Pippen right around Worthy/Baylor. If you'd honestly rather have Grant Hill than Scottie Pippen there's something wrong with you. And where's Dominique?

 

[hoosboot]

Assuming that's in order, I'd put Pippen right around Worthy/Baylor. If you'd honestly rather have Grant Hill than Scottie Pippen there's something wrong with you. And where's Dominique?

You didn't even get to Shawn Marion. Let me repeat. Shawn Marion. Shakes would rather have Shawn Marion than Pippen. That kind of firmly establishes what you are dealing with.

 

[EvanstonCat]

p

Assuming that's in order, I'd put Pippen right around Worthy/Baylor. If you'd honestly rather have Grant Hill than Scottie Pippen there's something wrong with you. And where's Dominique?

Really? You'd take him over Kevin Durant?

Yup, Dominique needs to be on that list, as well as David Thompson, and I'd take them over Pip too. I'd move King way up, but either way everyone to the left of him was better than Pip. I'd say Grant Hill (way too high on this list) and everyone else to the right of him I'd put under Pippen. So, Pippen is probably 12-14 amongst SF's. Let's say 5 per position group, that roughly makes him somewhere in 60-70 range amongst all players. In retrospect, top 250 is unfair and ridiculous for Pip. He is better than that. But, not sure he makes the top 50 based on the rough analysis and relative rankings above.

 

[NUCat320]

He was the second player on a decade long dynasty.

Hasn't LeBron shown that it's virtually impossible for a single player to win a championship, let alone six in eight years?

In a world where Malone and Barkley and Ewing are permanently branded as losers, doesn't the fact that Pippen's teams won a bunch matter? Yes, of course they were Jordan's more than Pippen's, but a great (top 100ish?) guy like Wade couldn't do it playing next to LeBron, and Bosh is no doubt a better third banana than Horace Grant.

It's easy to say that limited players like Longley and Perdue and Paxson and Old-Harper were elevated by Jordan but, I mean, Pippen was there the whole time too, right?

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Hasn't LeBron shown that it's virtually impossible for a single player to win a championship, let alone six in eight years?

A single player!? Wow...I guess you forgot about his teammates in Miami.

 

[NUCat320]

A single player!? Wow...I guess you forgot about his teammates in Miami.

The major point shakes (are there others that think his way) is trying to make is that the dynasty Bulls were Jordan's alone and that Pippen was a good player propped up by Jordan. My point is that LeBron's big stage failures demonstrate that the one-man-and-11-minions view of hoops is foolish. The point is strengthened by the fact that LeBron's #3 and probably #4-12 were better than the Jordan-Pippen Bulls.

 

[shakes3858]

My list isn't in order of talent. It's in the order I thought of them so yeah Bird and Lebron were the first guys I thought of and probably the best.

I didn't add Wilkins because I knew all the counter arguments against him and didn't want to set that trap for myself but Wilkins is better than Pippen... I didn't include Carmelo for the same reason. But he's better than Pippen too. Just like a lot of other guys not included.

Yes, I take Hill and Marion over Pippen. If you put those guys with Jordan in the early 90s you're easily talking title. They also don't lack the mental toughness that Pippen failed to demonstrate time and time again and the Bulls would've been in the championship 1-2 years earlier.

 

[hdhntr1]

Bird, Lebron, Havlicek, Erving, Worthy, Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry, Adrian Dantley, Kevin Durant, Bernard King, Grant Hill, Shawn Marion, Paul Pierce, Alex English, Chris Mullin

But only 4 of those would I put ahead of him. Durant looks like he will get there but he has not been in the league long enough to be considered. Besides, not in the league when the for the 50th anniversary. English, Barry, etc never mentioned defensively. Grant hill was injured most of his career and I cannot put him above Pippen. The thing that gives Pippen his status is his D and the championships that many on your list do not have. 8 time all defensive team first team and two more on the second. Shawn Marion? Give me a break. Bernard King? Not close. Worthy? Closer but still no cigar. Like I said Pippen was at least 5th best. It was his all around game and especially his D that puts him above everyone else. You focus too much on points scored but even at that Pippen was as good or better than several on your list.

 

[shakes3858]

But only 4 of those would I put ahead of him. Durant looks like he will get there but he has not been in the league long enough to be considered. Besides, not in the league when the for the 50th anniversary. English, Barry, etc never mentioned defensively. Grant hill was injured most of his career and I cannot put him above Pippen. The thing that gives Pippen his status is his D and the championships that many on your list do not have. 8 time all defensive team first team and two more on the second. Shawn Marion? Give me a break. Bernard King? Not close. Worthy? Closer but still no cigar. Like I said Pippen was at least 5th best. It was his all around game and especially his D that puts him above everyone else. You focus too much on points scored but even at that Pippen was as good or better than several on your list.

Pippen just appeared to be the 5th best because he played along side Michael Jeffery Jordan. It's like Johnny Manziel appearing to be an excellent quarterback. He wasn't; he just had 1st round draft picks all over his Oline as well as 1st round targets to throw to. Pippen was a fine player, but not in the same league as a guy who could carry a team like all of those above. I don't care about the 50th anniversary team or the dream team. All of that was political as well as being based on money, eye balls, TV revenue at the announcement...

 

[EvanstonCat]

But only 4 of those would I put ahead of him. Durant looks like he will get there but he has not been in the league long enough to be considered. Besides, not in the league when the for the 50th anniversary. English, Barry, etc never mentioned defensively. Grant hill was injured most of his career and I cannot put him above Pippen. The thing that gives Pippen his status is his D and the championships that many on your list do not have. 8 time all defensive team first team and two more on the second. Shawn Marion? Give me a break. Bernard King? Not close. Worthy? Closer but still no cigar. Like I said Pippen was at least 5th best. It was his all around game and especially his D that puts him above everyone else. You focus too much on points scored but even at that Pippen was as good or better than several on your list.

Bernard King and Worthy are way better than Pippen. I'd have taken them and others over Pip any day of the week, and I was a Bulls fan. You are high as a kite. He was around the 12th or 14th best like I said.

 

[hdhntr1]

Assuming that's in order, I'd put Pippen right around Worthy/Baylor. If you'd honestly rather have Grant Hill than Scottie Pippen there's something wrong with you. And where's Dominique?

That is about where he is put in the top 10 list of small forwards and where I would put him. Again, it is his overall game and D that put him there. He was in a different league than the rest on D.

 

[hdhntr1]

Bernard King and Worthy are way better than Pippen. I'd have taken them and others over Pip any day of the week, and I was a Bulls fan. You are high as a kite. He was around the 12th or 14th best like I said.

Worthy at similar level with Pippen slightly ahead again because of his D. King? No way.

 

[Styre]

That is about where he is put in the top 10 list of small forwards and where I would put him. Again, it is his overall game and D that put him there. He was in a different league than the rest on D.

IMO, Worthy is way overrated (Laker effect) and Marion is way underrated. If you look at regular season numbers, offensively and defensively, Marion and Pippen are fairly comparable. The difference, of course, is the postseason, where Pippen had much more success.

 

[hdhntr1]

Pippen just appeared to be the 5th best because he played along side Michael Jeffery Jordan. It's like Johnny Manziel appearing to be an excellent quarterback. He wasn't; he just had 1st round draft picks all over his Oline as well as 1st round targets to throw to. Pippen was a fine player, but not in the same league as a guy who could carry a team like all of those above. I don't care about the 50th anniversary team or the dream team. All of that was political as well as being based on money, eye balls, TV revenue at the announcement...

When Pippen was on his own (no Jordan) he had his best production. PPG about 22 and at a similar level to the best., RPG about 8.5. APG 5.5 SPG 2.9 BPG 1. And his D was number 1. And he won playoff games and series without Jordan, something Jordan never did without Pippen. That puts him in the top 5 at SF. Could be argued whether he would be 4-7 but I put him at 5. Wilkins definitely belongs in the top 10. Better scorer but not the D.

My list isn't in order of talent. It's in the order I thought of them so yeah Bird and Lebron were the first guys I thought of and probably the best.

I didn't add Wilkins because I knew all the counter arguments against him and didn't want to set that trap for myself but Wilkins is better than Pippen... I didn't include Carmelo for the same reason. But he's better than Pippen too. Just like a lot of other guys not included.

Yes, I take Hill and Marion over Pippen. If you put those guys with Jordan in the early 90s you're easily talking title. They also don't lack the mental toughness that Pippen failed to demonstrate time and time again and the Bulls would've been in the championship 1-2 years earlier.

Wilkins and Carmello have no D Good offensively but all around? Not really there. You focus too much on points scored and ignore the rest of the game. Hill and Marion? No way. Your best argument might be Wilkins but he had no D.

 

[shakes3858]

Yawn... I've destroyed that argument many times. Pippen was highly motivated in year one without Jordan and He had the greatest coach in the game and Horace grant was a vastly underrated player. Then Grant left and the Bulls fell to a team around .500 with the NBAs all time greatest coach before Jordan got back to try to bail them out. Look at that teams record before Jordan got there and after the comeback. Night and day. Why because Pippen couldn't carry a team like a top 100 player in the league should.

Carmelo and Wilkins play a different style. They want a fast pace offensive game. Memo was highly successful in Denver with that. It's not working in New York because they're not playing to his strengths or building a team around him that wants to do that.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Nobody ever mentions the effect Pete Myers had on the team the year Jordan was gone.

 

[hoosboot]

Yeah, Melo was so highly successful in Denver that he got out of the first round of the playoffs exactly once.

I guess Jordan wasn't so great since he couldn't take the team to a title when he came back. Thank goodness that Dennis Rodman came in to fill the Horace Grant role and save Jordan's butt.

 

[clarificationcat]

My list isn't in order of talent. It's in the order I thought of them so yeah Bird and Lebron were the first guys I thought of and probably the best.

I didn't add Wilkins because I knew all the counter arguments against him and didn't want to set that trap for myself but Wilkins is better than Pippen... I didn't include Carmelo for the same reason. But he's better than Pippen too. Just like a lot of other guys not included.

Yes, I take Hill and Marion over Pippen. If you put those guys with Jordan in the early 90s you're easily talking title. They also don't lack the mental toughness that Pippen failed to demonstrate time and time again and the Bulls would've been in the championship 1-2 years earlier.

Just keep typing it enough and maybe folks will start to believe you. Despite all of the

Yawn... I've destroyed that argument many times. Pippen was highly motivated in year one without Jordan and He had the greatest coach in the game and Horace grant was a vastly underrated player. Then Grant left and the Bulls fell to a team around .500 with the NBAs all time greatest coach before Jordan got back to try to bail them out. Look at that teams record before Jordan got there and after the comeback. Night and day. Why because Pippen couldn't carry a team like a top 100 player in the league should.

Carmelo and Wilkins play a different style. They want a fast pace offensive game. Memo was highly successful in Denver with that. It's not working in New York because they're not playing to his strengths or building a team around him that wants to do that.

Please. If you want to keep posting unsubstantiated crap over and over again and hope that folks either give up or actually accept it as truth, feel free. But you haven't "destroyed" anything except your own credibility. You fail to mention that in addition to Grant leaving, Cartwright and Paxon retired. Jordan wasn't winning a championship with Luc Longley, Will Perdue, Cory Blount and D. Simkins in the front court. They needed to get Rodman before they could win championships. Pippen averaged 21.4, 8.1 and 5.9 that year with 3 steals a game and was an All-Star and a first team All-Defensive player. When Magic retired, Worthy led the Lakers to a losing record the year after playing the Bulls in the Finals. Shawn Marion, Bernard King, and lots of other players you think are better than Pippen missed the playoffs in lots of seasons. Why couldn't they carry their teams like top 100 players? I am not interested in debating whether Pippen was the 7th best small forward or the 15th best small forward. He is in the conversation and Jordan was fortunate to play with a player that almost everyone agrees (except for a few folks who don't understand basketball or have some extraordinarily weird bias) was a top 25 to top 75 player. Jordan won one playoff game without Pippen in his first three seasons. You claim that it was because Jordan needed to learn how to better work with his teammates. Pippen went to Central Fricken' Arkansas as the team manager but you cut him no slack for taking time to develop his game. He won a championship in his 4th season. Like I have said over and over, the stats are wrong. Phil Jackson is wrong. Chuck Daley is wrong. Bill Simmons is wrong, and even your hero, Michael Jordan, is wrong. Your fuzzy recollections from 20 plus years ago are right. O.K.

 

[hdhntr1]

Yawn... I've destroyed that argument many times. Pippen was highly motivated in year one without Jordan and He had the greatest coach in the game and Horace grant was a vastly underrated player. Then Grant left and the Bulls fell to a team around .500 with the NBAs all time greatest coach before Jordan got back to try to bail them out. Look at that teams record before Jordan got there and after the comeback. Night and day. Why because Pippen couldn't carry a team like a top 100 player in the league should.

Carmelo and Wilkins play a different style. They want a fast pace offensive game. Memo was highly successful in Denver with that. It's not working in New York because they're not playing to his strengths or building a team around him that wants to do that.

You have not destroyed anything. With Jordan and no Pippen, (and no Grant) that team would have gone nowhere either. And Pippens stats were almost the same in year two as they were in year one. Generally it takes 3 main guys to get you anywhere and when Grant left, they were down to one. That same team with Jordan instead of Pippen was likely to be only a 0.500 team or less as well and the addition of Pippen would have been every bit as dramatic an improvement. Again, Jordan won at most one playoff game (an no series) without Pippen and Pippen won a number of games and series without Jordan.

 

[hdhntr1]

IMO, Worthy is way overrated (Laker effect) and Marion is way underrated. If you look at regular season numbers, offensively and defensively, Marion and Pippen are fairly comparable. The difference, of course, is the postseason, where Pippen had much more success.

The only place Marion is in the conversation is in rebounding. Pippen scored more, double the assists, double the steals and better all around game.

 

[Styre]

The only place Marion is in the conversation is in rebounding. Pippen scored more, double the assists, double the steals and better all around game.

I don't think Marion is Pippen's equal, I just think he deserves more respect than he's been afforded.

 

[shakes3858]

You have not destroyed anything. With Jordan and no Pippen, (and no Grant) that team would have gone nowhere either. And Pippens stats were almost the same in year two as they were in year one. Generally it takes 3 main guys to get you anywhere and when Grant left, they were down to one. That same team with Jordan instead of Pippen was likely to be only a 0.500 team or less as well and the addition of Pippen would have been every bit as dramatic an improvement. Again, Jordan won at most one playoff game (an no series) without Pippen and Pippen won a number of games and series without Jordan.

That team with Jordan instead of Pippen... And I don't mean a Jordan that had just left the baseball diamond would've been the favorite to win the title.

 

[hdhntr1]

That team with Jordan instead of Pippen... And I don't mean a Jordan that had just left the baseball diamond would've been the favorite to win the title.

You are either kidding or delusional. With the rest of the team that year, they were not going anywhere. Kukoch was just getting used to NBA and not ready for prime time. That was a weak supporting cast. With Jordan and no Pippen, they would have been very lucky to get to 0.500