Recruiting differences between carmody and Collins.

[T_Levine]

I am really going to do this:

Why can't people just thank Carmody for what he did and move on? He made NU competitive and fielded a three or four teams that were tournament worthy before defections / discipline / injury gutted them. He brought in some nice players and he had a really nice long tenure where he made lots of money, represented the university well and never even sniffed an NCAA violation that I have seen. He's a nice guy who was fun to talk too. Honestly, I have always been amazed that such a thing as a Carmody hater could even exist.

But no one can suggest in retrospect that it was not the right move by Phillips to move on and the best move of Phillips tenure as AD to hire Collins. Collins and his staff have been amazing to date at upgrading the roster and believing that NU could play fierce man to man defense and pick and roll offense. Trust me, I had huge doubts he could make this work. As a recruiter, in the first four years, Collins recruited 4 starters who have been awesome and have racked up accomplishments beyond their rankings, excepting maybe Law who is certainly playing to the level of his ranking. That's really good recruiting. He got really lucky too with Pardon and Lindsey who have played well beyond what any recruiting service would have ever projected. Why, because Collins and his staff are really good coaches in addition to being good recruiters. But part of being a good recruiter it not just landing top 100 kids, its landing kids who are better than their rankings. Funny because in that sense, I always thought Carmody was a good recruiter because he always managed to find kids for his system who could compete.

Funny story a friend who used to coach at the college level recently told me about recruiting. He said that that when Beilein was at West Virginia, they did not go after top 100 kids, they tried to recruit the MAC All Star team.

That all said, I think the true test of Collins as a recruiter is 2018. The playing field is level with his peers in terms of NCAA and facilities so lets see what he can do.

Max is completely correct. Bienen made the right hire at the time when he brought carmody on board. Carmody' some fatal flaw was thinking he could duplicate Princeton at a power five conference. He got us to the mountain, even climbed it more than half way, but it took a Chris Collins to get us over the summit and to the promised land.

I think the changing landscape of sports and college sports in general bode well for northwestern. As crazy as this sounds, I actually believe that northwestern may at least sniff a final four caliber team in The next 20 years and quite possibly go from the promised land to nirvana. Can only dream.

 

[mikewebb68]

You had to know this was the thread you would get. Include Collins and Carmody in a topic and this is pretty much it.

 

[Hungry Jack]

You're the King of Fibbery in this area. Just off the top of my head, Kyle Rowley and Luka Mirkovic both had offers from Purdue and Nick Fruendt had an offer from Wisconsin. It would behoove you to stop talking out of your rectum on this because if you keep on, I'll start digging and produce all sorts of evidence to the contrary of your fibbing.

Start digging. Please. We need more.

 

[pawildcat]

I don't know how Collins's recruits "rate" compared to Carmody's and really don't feel like roaming the Interweb to find out. The best gauge, in my opinion, is the eye test, and the team Collins put on the court this year is definitely more athletic than anything I saw under Carmody. Collins is not really much better than Carmody at Xs and Os, but he definitely is getting better players.

 

[Walker Fan]

As for BC's coaching, did anyone ever see a successful last second play or play out of a timeout that worked? CC and Brian James who has a wealth of NBA experience has proven that he can draw up successful last possession shots (See Tap-Pardon v. uM this season, Demo's last second heroics v. UM a couple of years ago come quickly to mind). Player development issue shows that CC and his staff are much more skilled (see Lindsey, Law, Skelly and McIntosh's improvement from year-to-year). Offense is more diverse and with many more options with sharper cuts to the hoop. We still need more dribble drives and pick and rolls with Pardon and McIntosh. But we do not see the staid and jaded passes trying to lure the opponents on the back door that Carmody copied from Ivy League legend Pete Carril. The defense is 100 percent better than that silly 1-3-1 defense with 5'9" Sobo trying to box out PFs and Cs like 6'9", 275 lbs. Jared Sullinger. I will try to make this my last post of this subject because there is no reasonable argument. It is a first round knockout who is the better coach in all aspects.

 

[docrugby1]

I am really going to do this:

Why can't people just thank Carmody for what he did and move on? He made NU competitive and fielded a three or four teams that were tournament worthy before defections / discipline / injury gutted them. He brought in some nice players and he had a really nice long tenure where he made lots of money, represented the university well and never even sniffed an NCAA violation that I have seen. He's a nice guy who was fun to talk too. Honestly, I have always been amazed that such a thing as a Carmody hater could even exist.

But no one can suggest in retrospect that it was not the right move by Phillips to move on and the best move of Phillips tenure as AD to hire Collins. Collins and his staff have been amazing to date at upgrading the roster and believing that NU could play fierce man to man defense and pick and roll offense. Trust me, I had huge doubts he could make this work. As a recruiter, in the first four years, Collins recruited 4 starters who have been awesome and have racked up accomplishments beyond their rankings, excepting maybe Law who is certainly playing to the level of his ranking. That's really good recruiting. He got really lucky too with Pardon and Lindsey who have played well beyond what any recruiting service would have ever projected. Why, because Collins and his staff are really good coaches in addition to being good recruiters. But part of being a good recruiter it not just landing top 100 kids, its landing kids who are better than their rankings. Funny because in that sense, I always thought Carmody was a good recruiter because he always managed to find kids for his system who could compete.

Funny story a friend who used to coach at the college level recently told me about recruiting. He said that that when Beilein was at West Virginia, they did not go after top 100 kids, they tried to recruit the MAC All Star team.

That all said, I think the true test of Collins as a recruiter is 2018. The playing field is level with his peers in terms of NCAA and facilities so lets see what he can do.

I believe this is a fair analysis of the BC/CC debate. I would discount recruiting ratings and only ask if the current NU roster passes the "eye test". Anyone that thinks any of BC's teams had comparable talent to NU 2016 should be banned from posting. BC was an extraordinary coach that could occasionally beat far better teams with schemes and coaching but this formula could not work in a Power 5 conference where talent reigns supreme. The lack of talent may have ultimately been his responsibility and led to his dismissal.

CC has brought in far better athletic talent that allows NU to play on both ends of the court. BC would be the better coach for the talent that he assembled . CC is the better coach for the talent currently available at NU. CC's job is to keep assembling talent because if the talent decreases to BC's level, his system cannot succeed

 

[Styre]

Edit: Never mind, it's not worth it. Carry on.

 

[Sec.112]

Max is completely correct. Bienen made the right hire at the time when he brought carmody on board.

Man, is this correct!! That was a hell of a hire for September. NU could have been really screwed.

For every positive somebody wants to offer me about Carmody's time, I can probably give you two or three negatives that I've repeated at one time or another.

But in the end, Billy C was idealistic enough to spend 12 of his prime coaching years, trying to get it done at a place where he didn't have the greatest institutional support. He'll always have my respect for that. I hope the supposedly hurt feelings can subside, and Carmody gets "a day" sometime on the next several years.

 

[hdhntr1]

Man, is this correct!! That was a hell of a hire for September. NU could have been really screwed.

For every positive somebody wants to offer me about Carmody's time, I can probably give you two or three negatives that I've repeated at one time or another.

But in the end, Billy C was idealistic enough to spend 12 of his prime coaching years, trying to get it done at a place where he didn't have the greatest institutional support. He'll always have my respect for that. I hope the supposedly hurt feelings can subside, and Carmody gets "a day" sometime on the next several years.

Ya. That last one wasn't in his prime.

 

[TheC]

Carmody clearly raised the bar at NU and should be thanked for that. That said, the reason this debate (is it really a debate?) between coaches rages on is that until this year, most of the comparisons between CCC and CBC's teams have relied on an eyeball test.

- CCC teams play defense with much more intensity
- CCC teams fight for rebounds
- CCC play a more "above the rim" style
- CCC teams don't rely on a "gimmick" offense


It wasn't really until the results on the court this year could you definitively say that CCC has taken this program to places CBC never did, and likely never could. But looking back over the last four years, I think we can say we saw the signs that this day was coming soon. I only thought that once during the CBC years and towards the end, I saw a program that was regressing.

 

[NJCat]

Carmody clearly raised the bar at NU and should be thanked for that. That said, the reason this debate (is it really a debate?) between coaches rages on is that until this year, most of the comparisons between CCC and CBC's teams have relied on an eyeball test.

- CCC teams play defense with much more intensity
- CCC teams fight for rebounds
- CCC play a more "above the rim" style
- CCC teams don't rely on a "gimmick" offense


It wasn't really until the results on the court this year could you definitively say that CCC has taken this program to places CBC never did, and likely never could. But looking back over the last four years, I think we can say we saw the signs that this day was coming soon. I only thought that once during the CBC years and towards the end, I saw a program that was regressing.

Bill Carmody is the second must successful NU BB coach I have seen since I started following the Cats 44 years ago.

Chris Collins is the most successful NU BB coach. Not even close.

 

[MysticCat]

]Carmody never recruited guys from the US who came from a state as far away as Washington because that would require a lot of work on the recruiting trail.
--------

No, just Arizona. California and Oregon though. Lol.

I guess he just figured it was quicker and easier to travel to Croatia 3 different times. Whoops.

 

[Gladeskat]

But he couldn't bother traveling 20 miles to meet Frank Kaminsky.

 

[MysticCat]

How does this conversation continue?!? Are we really discussing the recruiting capability of Carmody versus Collins? You're kidding, right?

Sure, let's discuss the "revisionist history" and fuzzy memories. It's amazing how every time Carmody needs to be defended, the first six or seven years are ignored.

But let's talk about the first seven years of Carmody, top 100s and recruiting. We have:

* Coble - Not anywhere near a top 100 rating, but let's give him credit for it.
* Hachad - Once again, not top 100, but he was recruited by Kansas, Baylor and Marquette.
* Big Mike Thompson - Let's include his 13 games and top 60 rating.
* Vukusic - He deserves top 100 also, but let's not forget he was signed sight unseen - not exactly recruiting genius.

Can we agree Tim Doyle, TJ Parker, Vince Scott, Sterling Williams, Bernard Cote and Brandon Lee never sniffed the top 100?

So in Carmody's first SEVEN years, I offer an INCREDIBLY GENEROUS four top 100s.

In Collins' first FOUR years, we have:

* Law
* Ivanaukus - #89 Rivals with offers from Purdue, Michigan, UCLA plus others.
* Falzon - #75 ESPN and #92 Rivals
* Benson - #109 Rivals with offers from Illinois, IU, Purdue, Vandy and Stanford.

And that doesn't include BMac who very easily falls under the same category as Vukusic of vastly under-recruited.

You really think that's a similar comparison?

If you want to add Shurna, Crawford, Cobb, Thompson, Mirkovic and Rowley to the discussion, that's great. But can we wait until Collins' sixth or seventh year so we can get Carmody handicap something in the ballpark of a reasonable comparison? Hell, the Shurna list is more than half the number of TOTAL Collins recruits so far.

Bernard cote played at fricken Kentucky and literally could have gone to any school he wanted.

 

[Gladeskat]

Bernard cote played at fricken Kentucky and literally could have gone to any school he wanted.

Who's he?

Oh. Who wouldn't fight for a 1.4 ppg and 0.4 rpg stud?

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Bernard cote played at fricken Kentucky and literally could have gone to any school he wanted.

Tubby Smith's teams in the early 2000s were solid, but not the program of today. Cote's offers were Kentucky, Kansas, and Minnesota per Rivals; a nice list for sure, but not like top programs were beating down his door. If I recall correctly, our main competition when he transferred was Steve Alford's "solid not spectacular" Iowa program.

So... no, that's incorrect.

 

[MysticCat]

not like top programs were beating down his door.
------

Yeah, good point.

Let's look at that list again.... Kentucky, Kansas......

 

[Sec.112]

Bernard cote played at fricken Kentucky and literally could have gone to any school he wanted.

Really, Mystic? You're going to pump your chest for Bernard Cote?

Rivals listed him as the 90th best forward in his class and he's nowhere to be found on the ESPN top 100. But, sure, let's add him to my list.

So between two of the players on the INCREDIBLY generous Carmody list, we have a grand total 1 year and 13 games.

If that's part of your argument with all the attitude, good luck with that.

 

[wildcatpn]

]Carmody never recruited guys from the US who came from a state as far away as Washington because that would require a lot of work on the recruiting trail.
--------


No, just Arizona. California and Oregon though. Lol.

I guess I just figured it was quicker and easier to travel to Croatia 3 different times. Whoops.

Fixed it for you, Bill.

 

[Hungry Jack]

Who's he?

Oh. Who wouldn't fight for a 1.4 ppg and 0.4 rpg stud?

I met him once. He ran a sidewalk crepe stand near the Bol Mich in Paris. Nice guy. Good Nutella-banana crepes.

 

[Hungry Jack]

Can we retitle any thread about Carmody "November Rain" which is a song about unrequited love?

 

[EvanstonCat]

I don't know how Collins's recruits "rate" compared to Carmody's and really don't feel like roaming the Interweb to find out. The best gauge, in my opinion, is the eye test, and the team Collins put on the court this year is definitely more athletic than anything I saw under Carmody. Collins is not really much better than Carmody at Xs and Os, but he definitely is getting better players.

Agree. To suggest that the quality of players that Carmody has put on the court (from a depth perspective) is anything close to what Collins had is ludicrous. Look at Sobo coming off the bench as a senior and that tells you where the vast majority of starters on Carmody teams stack up to this roster. It's also telling when a Carmody hugger has to fall back on Bernard Cote to make a point about Carmody's recruiting and talent development prowess.

On the Xs and Os, I beg to differ in a massive way. Xs and Os isn't just offense (to which I still have no affinity for the gimmick offense Carmody ran). Defense wins games, as we saw this year. Rebounds are important. On that front, Carmody was no X. He was a big fat O.

Never mind motivation and player development. Qualities you want to see in a coach. Again, Collins just worlds apart in those departments.

Just look at the scoreboard. Most wins in our history. Most B1G wins. 1st time we won 2 in the B1G. 1st time we made it that far in the B1G. 1st time to NCAAs. 1st time to round of 32. And frankly, had the refs not muffed the goal tend call leading to the subsequent T, my heart and mind both tell me we would have beat the NCAA tourney runner up.

And way too much credit given to Carmody for what Collins has achieved. He left the cupboard bare. If you haven't noticed, Collins largely did it with his own recruits. Recruits that came despite where NU was under Carmody, not because of it. Law's people even said there was no way he would have considered NU under Carmody.

Of course, Mystic and the other Carmody huggers thought it could never be done. That what BC was doing was as good as we could expect. We should have been thankful. Whatever.

 

[docrugby1]

I disagree with EC about Carmody and defense. BC's teams lacked athleticism. He could not expect
M 2 M to work because he could never put more than 2 players on the floor that could play man.

He never had a center that could play man. He had to use his centers to guard space since they could not defend in space. They had to be protected from committing fouls. I thought it was laughable when someone posted that missing Olah this year was a real problem. Alex had good ball skills but could not overcome genetics

BC's teams could not rebound because they were playing zone frequently. I doubt he had a center with a 6" vertical leap. in his entire tenure at NU. The lack of quickness/athleticism allowed teams to play ping pong on the offensive boards


Criticisms of BC are valid when it comes to recruiting but if you think he could have played differently with the players he had, then I think you are being unfair. He survived in the B1G with talent deficits that could not compete routinely. If the recruiting deficiencies were BC's fault alone then his 13 year tenure was probably too long but if he lacked institutional support then the blame can be spread around

 

[willycat]

I disagree with EC about Carmody and defense. BC's teams lacked athleticism. He could not expect
M 2 M to work because he could never put more than 2 players on the floor that could play man.

He never had a center that could play man. He had to use his centers to guard space since they could not defend in space. They had to be protected from committing fouls. I thought it was laughable when someone posted that missing Olah this year was a real problem. Alex had good ball skills but could not overcome genetics

BC's teams could not rebound because they were playing zone frequently. I doubt he had a center with a 6" vertical leap. in his entire tenure at NU. The lack of quickness/athleticism allowed teams to play ping pong on the offensive boards


Criticisms of BC are valid when it comes to recruiting but if you think he could have played differently with the players he had, then I think you are being unfair. He survived in the B1G with talent deficits that could not compete routinely. If the recruiting deficiencies were BC's fault alone then his 13 year tenure was probably too long but if he lacked institutional support then the blame can be spread around

Recruiting is the name of the game and Carmody just failed there, over and over. All of the negatives you stated about Carmody teams were true but who recruited those guys? It wasn't the lack of institutional suppoprt but the lack of desire that hurt recruiting during his years as HC. It also wasn't the 1-3-1 that hurt rebounding but it was the coaching that instructed players to get back into defensive end, just as soon as a shot went up. I do agree with one thing that Carmody's tenure was way to long.

 

[Turk]

You mean "implying."

If by "on par," you mean, "roughly equal based upon the individual rankings of recruits," then, yes, I do mean that. Each time I have seen this revisited here, the combatants either demonstrate fuzzy memories at best, or, at worst, outright fibbery in attaching numbers to Carmody's recruits.

Collins is doing great things. He has a long way to go in recruiting. The incoming class is miles away from where he needs to be and aside from Law, more recruits in the 125-250 range look strikingly similar to Carmody recruits in the 125-250 range.

I didn't believe me or anyone was forgetting anything regarding Carmody and recruiting. Any Carmody fan who brings up recruiting is bringing up Carmody's worst aspect of coaching. Better to bring up all the positive things Carmody did that we love. I liked BC and we had some fun teams but the level of players that Collins brought in are simply vast superior. Carmody won games because he has a brilliant mind and can scheme and get his team to play team ball, not necessarily team defense though.

Going back to recruiting, BC never had a season where he averaged 3+ stars. Thus far, every season Collins has finished recruiting, he has averaged a minimum of 3+ stars and as high as 3.67 stars. Each year he has brought in at least 1 four star. Tossing stars aside, we saw, clearly, the difference between talent when all of Carmody's veteran players couldn't get on the floor for Collins, except Sanjay and Tap. Abrahamson, Turner, Sonny and Cher "I got you babe" Ajou, the jewish kid, etc, all had to scatter like cockroaches to other teams if they wanted to play because Collins' true freshmen were far superior and just stole their playing time.

As far as coaching, I think Collins is a better coach than Carmody. Collins keeps the team as a team and limits conflict. Carmody was stubborn and lost his best player in Coble. Couldn't work things out and appeared to be more of a white collar snob who felt he was always going to keep his job if he won at least 15 games.

Not a knock on Carmody, I think he was a good hire and did better than NU could expect. But when Phillips and Morty teamed up and decided they wanted a NCAA program, they had to bring in a closer and upgrade. Collins has proven that he was in fact an upgrade. Actually, I felt we were still 1 year away but Collins got us there prior to his players being matured from his first recruit [Law]. Next year will be amazing, I'm thinking 23+ wins again, but playing in Rosemont Arena will suck.

 

[hdhntr1]

]Carmody never recruited guys from the US who came from a state as far away as Washington because that would require a lot of work on the recruiting trail.
--------

No, just Arizona. California and Oregon though. Lol.

I guess he just figured it was quicker and easier to travel to Croatia 3 different times. Whoops.

Coble was from AZ but who was from CA and OR?

 

[hdhntr1]

I disagree with EC about Carmody and defense. BC's teams lacked athleticism. He could not expect
M 2 M to work because he could never put more than 2 players on the floor that could play man.

He never had a center that could play man. He had to use his centers to guard space since they could not defend in space. They had to be protected from committing fouls. I thought it was laughable when someone posted that missing Olah this year was a real problem. Alex had good ball skills but could not overcome genetics

BC's teams could not rebound because they were playing zone frequently. I doubt he had a center with a 6" vertical leap. in his entire tenure at NU. The lack of quickness/athleticism allowed teams to play ping pong on the offensive boards


Criticisms of BC are valid when it comes to recruiting but if you think he could have played differently with the players he had, then I think you are being unfair. He survived in the B1G with talent deficits that could not compete routinely. If the recruiting deficiencies were BC's fault alone then his 13 year tenure was probably too long but if he lacked institutional support then the blame can be spread around

No one is suggesting that BC teams were capable of playing the systems currently being played in Evanston and being successful. Going to the BC O and D were the best way to get the most out of what he had. As you say, they didn't have the athleticism. And the gimmicks could only get us so far. But you keep forgetting that the reason we did not have the athleticism is that BC did not, for the most part, bring it in. And interesting that once CCC came in, he took many of those same players and was able to get them to play better D. For BC, D was an afterthought while for CCC it is a focal point on what he is trying to do.

 

[willycat]

]Carmody never recruited guys from the US who came from a state as far away as Washington because that would require a lot of work on the recruiting trail.
--------

No, just Arizona. California and Oregon though. Lol.

I guess he just figured it was quicker and easier to travel to Croatia 3 different times. Whoops.

Well the one good one he got from Arizona, was obviously Coble and even that one ended on a sour note. I talked to someone very close to Kevin a few times before games and found out that Kevin played for a small private H.S. and wasn't heavily recruited but got some notice when he played in summer leagues. Also said that (Scott?) played with his back to the basket in H.S. but Carmody always used him in the high post, facing the hoop. The only guy I remember from California was a walk-on guard who's name escapes me and who eventually earned a schlorship his senior year. Finally those guys from Croatia and Serbia fell into NU's arms because of former NU player coached in Europe not because of extended recruiting trips. Who came from Oregon?

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

I disagree with EC about Carmody and defense. BC's teams lacked athleticism. He could not expect
M 2 M to work because he could never put more than 2 players on the floor that could play man.

He never had a center that could play man. He had to use his centers to guard space since they could not defend in space. They had to be protected from committing fouls. I thought it was laughable when someone posted that missing Olah this year was a real problem. Alex had good ball skills but could not overcome genetics

BC's teams could not rebound because they were playing zone frequently. I doubt he had a center with a 6" vertical leap. in his entire tenure at NU. The lack of quickness/athleticism allowed teams to play ping pong on the offensive boards


Criticisms of BC are valid when it comes to recruiting but if you think he could have played differently with the players he had, then I think you are being unfair. He survived in the B1G with talent deficits that could not compete routinely. If the recruiting deficiencies were BC's fault alone then his 13 year tenure was probably too long but if he lacked institutional support then the blame can be spread around

My problem with the Carmody D, doc, was that it was 1-3-1 or bust. There was no backup plan or option. If it wasn't working at all, it didn't matter. He stuck with it, every game, every minute. It came off as either extremely inflexible, or lazy coaching.

His entire game plan literally relied on hot shooing from Shurna and another player or two in any particular game. Winning through gritty defense, boxing out, etc, wasn't an option.

 

[MysticCat]

His entire game plan literally relied on hot shooing from Shurna and another player or two in any particular game. Winning through gritty defense, boxing out, etc, wasn't an option.[/QUOTE]


And that why we needed a change: when your game plan involves getting one of the best shooters in the league open looks, and hoping that one or two other players have good shooting nights, you're just a lazy coach.

 

[Styre]

I disagree with EC about Carmody and defense. BC's teams lacked athleticism. He could not expect
M 2 M to work because he could never put more than 2 players on the floor that could play man.

While I agree with this in general, and I also think lack of athleticism (due to recruiting) was the biggest problem BC's teams faced, I do think defensive coaching was a factor. This is illustrated by the giant leap forward defensively in Collins' first year using a roster full of BC's players - and they weren't playing M2M all the time either.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

And that why we needed a change:

We needed a change because he wasn't winning enough games (a by-product of his coaching deficiencies previously discussed).

 

[Mr Wickerpark]

Carmody was a stiff. Typical NU coach that was only hired to graduate players and keep them out of trouble.
End of discussion. Get over it.

 

[clarificationcat]

His entire game plan literally relied on hot shooing from Shurna and another player or two in any particular game. Winning through gritty defense, boxing out, etc, wasn't an option.

And that why we needed a change: when your game plan involves getting one of the best shooters in the league open looks, and hoping that one or two other players have good shooting nights, you're just a lazy coach.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with this in general, and I also think lack of athleticism (due to recruiting) was the biggest problem BC's teams faced, I do think defensive coaching was a factor. This is illustrated by the giant leap forward defensively in Collins' first year using a roster full of BC's players - and they weren't playing M2M all the time either.

Agreed. We won 3 games in a row on the road (including at Wisconsin) in Collins' first year for the first time in like 40 years playing tough defense. I still recall a quote from Carmody prior to one of the seasons in which he said something to the effect that the team had not practiced defense yet (and instead focused on getting the offense down) and they already had 2 or 3 weeks of practice. I definitely think there was an emphasis on refining the Princeton offense over defensive principles.

 

[DaCat]

Chris Collins rocks! And wins games. End of discussion.

 

[ColumbusCatFan1]

He stuck with it (1-3-1), every game, every minute.

Carmody's staff used m2m defense frequently (and poorly) later on in his tenure...to the point where the 1-3-1 was considered a change up. There was some 2-3 zone (and other hybrids) thrown in toward the very end.

Styre, hinted at it already, but I think BC's defensive strategies were just fine (even clever at times). Lack of athleticism (Collins couldn't exclusively run m2m his first few seasons) and lack of emphasis (disproportionate amount of time spent on offense?) seem to have been the major culprits.

 

[willycat]

Carmody's staff used m2m defense frequently (and poorly) later on in his tenure...to the point where the 1-3-1 was considered a change up. There was some 2-3 zone (and other hybrids) thrown in toward the very end.

Styre, hinted at it already, but I think BC's defensive strategies were just fine (even clever at times). Lack of athleticism (Collins couldn't exclusively run m2m his first few seasons) and lack of emphasis (disproportionate amount of time spent on offense?) sAeem to have been the major culprits.

Ah, Collins ran a lot of m2m in his first season as HC and with the guys Carmody recruited and played with the previous season. Could have been that these players got quicker or maybe were better coached.

 

[docrugby1]

Ah, Collins ran a lot of m2m in his first season as HC and with the guys Carmody recruited and played with the previous season. Could have been that these players got quicker or maybe were better coached.

How did that work out ?

 

[Styre]

Carmody's staff used m2m defense frequently (and poorly) later on in his tenure...to the point where the 1-3-1 was considered a change up. There was some 2-3 zone (and other hybrids) thrown in toward the very end.

Yep. I remember an interview where he said basically every coach in basketball would run m2m 100% of the time if they could, and he was no different, but he couldn't because he didn't have the athletes. He ran the 1-3-1 (and other zone schemes) because he felt he had to, not because he was a devotee. And he wasn't wrong - Collins tried to run almost 100% m2m in his first year with BC's players and had to quickly get away from it after NU got annihilated in three straight games to start conference play. Now that NU is more athletic, they play m2m almost exclusively and they look very good doing it.

But lack of emphasis was definitely also a factor. Part of playing great defense is intensity and tenacity, and I doubt BC's teams would ever have focused on defense like that even if they did have the athletes to play m2m all the time.

 

[EvanstonCat]

How did that work out ?

It actually worked out well defensively. We won some games on defense. Collins is a far better coach defensively.

I have to say offensively too, if you look at how our offense hums against some of the best teams in the nation (53 points vs. Gonzaga in the 2nd half) vs. the vaunted Princeton O.