The cats actually have the goods !

[xxjfgxx]

It's now clear the cats have the talent (and depth) to compete in the Big Ten, especially with the infusion of talent next year while only losing Cobb & Sobo. It's shocking, but they actually substitute in waves now, and can go 8, 9 and even 10 deep! Never thought I'd see that at NU. In addition to the freshman, the emergence of Taphorn is a very positive development. The kid adds a presence on the court, appears to be a team leader, and can really shoot. One concern going forward is finding a big behind Olah. No doubt Skelly is a player, but could use a couple inches if he's going to play the post against BigTen centers. Pardon is only 6-8, 220, so Chris will need to come up with another BigTen body in the middle soon. Record aside, it's starting to look pretty darn positive.

 

[Katatonic]

Really hard to find that real big (6'11"-7'+) centers these days, at least ones with a combination of decent athleticism and skills.

Pardon is listed at 6'8" and 230 and has another year to grow (hopefully he can add at least another inch, but can also make up the height w/ better than avg. hops for a 5 and/or an above-avg. wingspan) - 6'9" and 245-250 should be more than enough at the 5.

Jared Sullinger came into dOSU at 6-8/260.

But yes, CC needs to land another 5 for life after Olah (while Skelly can play the 5, much prefer him at the 4 and only at the 5 as the back-up to the back-up).

Also, the 2012-13 team could have gone 9 deep, maybe 10 if count Turner.

Crawford
Cobb
Hearn
Swop
Olah
Sobo
Marco
Lumpkin
KA
Turner

But yeah, if the incoming class pans out, could be the deepest 'Cats team most of us have seen - which has long been the Achilles heel in the 'Cats making it to the Tourney.

This post was edited on 2/22 1:56 AM by Katatonic

 

[EvanstonCat]

You are not seriously comparing the depth of that team with this one are u? The starting PG on that team is a reserve on this one. The fact that you included Marco in your rotation not to mention considering a player who had no business having a scholarship in a B1G team says it all.

 

[Katatonic]

Again, you are making much ado about something that wasn't there.

My point wasn't comparing the depth of the 2012-13 team to this season's, but merely pointing out that the 2012-13 had pretty good depth as well and would have been the best in a long, long time.

And while this season's team is better at the 1 and at 5 (JR Olah vs. FR Olah), let's remember that as a FR, Sobo handled PG duty for a team that won an in-season tournament (Charleston Classic) and went to and won a game in the NIT.

Plus, if you have such an issue w/ Sobo - Cobb and Hearn could have handled the guard duties (the 2012-13 team was better at the 2, 3 and 4 slots).

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

Barrett Benson is a huge recruit for us...could be the perfect successor to Olah. Gotta assume Collins and Comwill be all in for the local big man.

 

[Walker Fan]

Guys,
1) Collins only had approximately 6 months to recruit his first class. In that time, he successfully recruited the most athletically talented class in NU history. This is hard to do because recruiting classes usually take a year or much longer;
2) In his first full year to recruit, CC has a top 100 recruit in Falzon out of Massachusetts, a top 150 recruit in Ash out of Chicago and a rising power forward/center in Dererk Pardon from a basketball powerhouse in Ohio Villa Angela - St. Joseph's where other notable basketball recruits were Clark Kellogg, David Lighty and football alums include Desmond Howard and Elvis Grbac. Pardon plays with a top 10-15 player in Carlton Bragg who is a recruit of that lousy ball program in Kansas. Collins is still not done and is hot on the trail of a fourth recruit; and
3) For the 2016 class, Collins is going after center prospects and if the center prospects understand Big 10 basketball, quality coaching and education at NU and the opportunity to play right away after Olah graduates then CC will hit on one or two center prospects. Collins was hot on the trail of Isaac Haas who is the best young center prospect in the Big 10, but he wanted to sit on the bench and play 10-15 minutes a game and enjoy the best picturesque campus in West Lafayette, IN. Insert sarcastic laugh here.

As for the attempts to say the 2012 NU squad was deep. My response is are you kidding me? Mike Turner went to Chicago Lab School where there are no basketball recruits and was only an option after a ton of other power forwards turned BC down. The rest of the class was not recruited by any other Big 10 schools. In actuality, Crawford was lightly recruited and only after one of his family members sent a dvd to Tavares Hardy did NU recruit him. Hearn was a preferred walk on. Marcutellio was a one dimensional player who could shoot three and did not play good defense. NU barely beat Seton Hall, a down LSU squad and a down Tulsa squad to win a holiday tournament in Charlestonin the non-conference season in November. NU did win one game at home in the NIT which was 76-74 against the Akron Zips. I would not get to excited about that and then got spanked by Washington in the second round. CC is recruiting better basketball players who are better all-around players that is why there should be more optimism about the sustained success of the program. If some can't see that, I do not know what games they have been watching over the past 15-20 years.

 

[NUCat320]

I think Skelly's future is as a 5, unless he extends his shooting range.

With Big Data, after 30 long years of the three pointer, finally convincing the world that a three and a dunk are good shots, and everything else is risky, the stretch 4 and the spread-out set are where the world (and the Cats when Law or Tap or, as we hope, Falzon plays the four) are headed.

The math changes a bit if there's a 7-footer who can defend a center but shoot from outside - then Skelly/Pardon can play the five offensively and the four defensively, but we learned in 12 years that three-point shooting, board-collecting seven-footers have never grown on any tree ever.

 

[EvanstonCat]

That team may have been the deepest in memory, but that is like being the tallest midget.

Being better at the 2-4 spots isn't the debate. We have always had B1G caliber talent in a portion of our starting lineup - even back in Eschmeyer's day, we had one of the best in the country - the problem was the guys he and guys like Shurna and Colber were playing with and sitting on the bench.

When you can actually field 8-9 guys who actually belong on the same court as your opponent, that is huge and we have NEVER ben there before.

I'm not disagreeing that the 2012-13 team was stronger - it was, given the deep experience. But, to argue it was deep is misleading, when Sobo was starting that doesn't say much for your depth. Imagine what that team could have done with Olah and MacIntosh. I don't think the 2-4 spots on that team are better once this team gets bigger, stronger, and more experienced. Our problem this year wasn't depth. It was purely experience. We have multiple freshmen playing 25-30 min a game. That's gonna pay dividends down the road. I think as early as 2015-16.

 

[thewildcat2011]

Sobo was a fine Princeton offense PG. Stop railing on the kid.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[Palindrome]

Thank you.

Whan a Big Ten COY says that, as a frosh/soph, you are THE guy he trusts most as his quarterback on the court ,,, I think I could sleep pretty well at night knowing that I help the team.

 

[spartcat]

1) Didn't the 12-13 team win 20 games? I agree it's trash to compare that team with this one. That one was much better.

2) I really do see Skelly as a strong contributor at the 4 spot, eventually. Think of him as a bigger, better version of Sanjay once he gets some experience.

 

[Styre]

I like how you sh*t all over the 2012 players for not having any B1G offers and then spend an entire paragraph talking up Dererk Pardon, who doesn't have any either.

Here's an idea -- why don't we evaluate them based on their performance rather than their offer sheets?

 

[Styre]

Not quite -- they finished 19-14 (8-10). But yes, that team was considerably better than this one, as it was 1-2 more conference wins away from making the NCAAs.

 

[NUCat320]

I don't know, Styre, I would *definitely* say that Mirkovic and Rowley are the best players I've seen suit up in purple, wouldn't you?

 

[Katatonic]

Originally posted by NUCat320:
I don't know, Styre, I would *definitely* say that Mirkovic and Rowley are the best players I've seen suit up in purple, wouldn't you?

Those 2 had better offer lists than Skelly or Pardon, so they must be better.

And in that class, Freundt was the highest rating recruit according to several rankings.

 

[Katatonic]

Originally posted by Walker Fan:

2) In his first full year to recruit, CC has a top 100 recruit in Falzon out of Massachusetts, a top 150 recruit in Ash out of Chicago and a rising power forward/center in Dererk Pardon from a basketball powerhouse in Ohio Villa Angela - St. Joseph's where other notable basketball recruits were Clark Kellogg, David Lighty and football alums include Desmond Howard and Elvis Grbac. Pardon plays with a top 10-15 player in Carlton Bragg who is a recruit of that lousy ball program in Kansas. Collins is still not done and is hot on the trail of a fourth recruit; and

As for the attempts to say the 2012 NU squad was deep. My response is are you kidding me? Mike Turner went to Chicago Lab School where there are no basketball recruits and was only an option after a ton of other power forwards turned BC down. The rest of the class was not recruited by any other Big 10 schools. In actuality, Crawford was lightly recruited and only after one of his family members sent a dvd to Tavares Hardy did NU recruit him. Hearn was a preferred walk on. Marcutellio was a one dimensional player who could shoot three and did not play good defense. NU barely beat Seton Hall, a down LSU squad and a down Tulsa squad to win a holiday tournament in Charlestonin the non-conference season in November. NU did win one game at home in the NIT which was 76-74 against the Akron Zips. I would not get to excited about that and then got spanked by Washington in the second round. CC is recruiting better basketball players who are better all-around players that is why there should be more optimism about the sustained success of the program. If some can't see that, I do not know what games they have been watching over the past 15-20 years.

I'm excited about the potential of the incoming class, but right now it's just that - potential.

And if we are going to base things just on rankings and such, PSU, NEB and Minny have higher ranked recruiting classes coming in and RU has a player ranked higher on the ESPN100 rankings (60 vs. 78 for Falzon).

As we all should know, these player/class rankings are hit and miss.

Otherwise, Shurna and Crawford would never be NU Greats and Law, and not BMac, should be in the running for B1G Frosh of the year.

And I stated if count Turner (would make 10) - probably wouldn't, so still 9-deep (would have played Turner at the 3 anyway).

And really, being hung up on recruiting rankings is esp. silly considering the history NU has had with recruits, and many of the same posters who are hung up on it - would then turn around and pump up Skelly, Lindsey, Pardon, etc. (I liked them from the scuttlebutt - just like how we heard noise about Shurna and Crawford).

And even more asinine is your comment of Hearn being a walk-on?

WHO CARES!!

Hearn was a very good player and was a RS season (basically not playing him as a walk-on in his 1st yr) away from being an NU Great (if he had another season, would have put up big nos. again).

Just as asinine is the comment about those close-wins, etc. -- gee, seem to recollect that there have been more than a few getting excited about the close-losses this season (and this is against a down B1G).

 

[Katatonic]

Originally posted by EvanstonCat:
That team may have been the deepest in memory, but that is like being the tallest midget.

Being better at the 2-4 spots isn't the debate. We have always had B1G caliber talent in a portion of our starting lineup - even back in Eschmeyer's day, we had one of the best in the country - the problem was the guys he and guys like Shurna and Colber were playing with and sitting on the bench.

When you can actually field 8-9 guys who actually belong on the same court as your opponent, that is huge and we have NEVER ben there before.

I'm not disagreeing that the 2012-13 team was stronger - it was, given the deep experience. But, to argue it was deep is misleading, when Sobo was starting that doesn't say much for your depth. Imagine what that team could have done with Olah and MacIntosh. I don't think the 2-4 spots on that team are better once this team gets bigger, stronger, and more experienced. Our problem this year wasn't depth. It was purely experience. We have multiple freshmen playing 25-30 min a game. That's gonna pay dividends down the road. I think as early as 2015-16.

There were some weaknesses on that 2012-13 team (mainly a young, inexperienced Olah - but typical for an NU BB team) and not having a more athletic PG (but Sobo as a Princeton PG was certainly serviceable, if not more so, and there was always the option of going w/ a Cobb and Hearn back-court).

Yes, we are all aware of Sobo's deficiencies, but despite your snarky comment, he did manage to avg. 8.3 ppg his frosh yr and 9.8 ppg the next yr. - so, let's not make out Sobo to be some type of scrub.

And Sobo was a pretty secure ball-handler and unlike BMac, don't recall failing to make it over half-court as often; also, Sobo had the better steal to TO ratio (29-46 vs. 6-68 thus far for BMac).

And really, you and Walker Fan are like Putin who live in another dimension and argue points that just obfuscate the issue at hand.

The issue isn't recruiting rankings or the diff. in experience (that's the main point why the depth on the current team isn't as good as some make it out to be - duh!), the fact remains that the 2012-13 team was pretty deep (by NU standards) and in certain areas, stronger than the current one.

PG - Sobo/Cobb
SG - Cobb/Hearn
SF - Crawford/Hearn/Lumpkin
PF - Swop/Turner
C - Olah

This team was deeper and would have been better than the 2011-12 team even w/ the departure of Shurna.

While Swop wasn't quite the shooter than Johnny was, Swop could score enough and made up it any deficiency w/ his rbding and D.

W/ Cobb, Hearn, Crawford and Swop - the 'Cats hadn't had that combination of athleticism, skill and experience at the guard and forward positions in pretty much the modern era and the present day 'Cats don't match up (in another couple of yrs, sure).

 

[EvanstonCat]

We're not that far apart. I do think that team was solid.

My primary point is you have no business putting Turner into that rotation to illustrate your point. He's a kid that did not belong in the B1G.

I am not crapping on Sobo except to say, that him as your starting PG kind of hurts your argument (he's the backup as a senior on this team).

Also, overall, I like the broader depth of this team better. Unlike the 2012 team, we actually do go two deep at almost every position, excepting the 5 perhaps. But, it is VERY YOUNG.

The 2012 team wins because you had strong upperclass players like Hearn, Shurna, and Drew Crawford in there to boot. We have no one like that except perhaps Olah this year. Hence, it is deeper in EXPERIENCE but not overall depth.

 

[Walker Fan]

I love Evanston Cat's quotes from OSU. Too funny. As for the people hyping up the 2012 roster. Are you kidding me? Carmody players were limited. You can not win in the Big 10 without athleticism and physicality. Carmody never could or would recruit players with size. We never recruited sufficient size to win against Big 10 teams. We went 5-10 years with never recruiting a real power forward (sufficient height and weight). We were forced to play players like Shurna, Swopshire and Crawford at PF because he did not recruit sufficient sized players. They were small forwards and Crawford was a shooting guard. Remember Shurna trying to box out Sullinger? Sobo was a 40 mpg starter as a frosh and soph because we recruited a point guard once every four years with the guaranty that you would start on Day 1 of your career. Collins has recruited Skelly, Falzon, Pardon and the new transfer recruit because he sees the same team as most do, we need size and physicality to beat MSU, OSU, UW, Iowa on a consistent basis. Have you seen what Dawson did to our PFs over the past number of years. Collins knows how to assess our roster. BC was a Ivy League Pete Carill creation and you need a different type of coach to win in the Big 10 (see Izzo, Ryan, Matta, etc.). You need athletic, physical players you don't need soft gimmick offense that works against Yale, Columbia, etc. Sorry if he truth hurts for some of you. Did you see how many other colleges went after BC to be their head coach after he left NU? Answer: none. He is a consultant for a former player at Fairfield.

 

[pawildcat]

It's not just these days. It's always been hard to find 6-11 and 7-foot plus guys with the coordination to be effective players, and it always will be. Wilt Chamberlain was able to score bushels of points when he first came into the NBA because there was no one else at the time with his combination of size and ability. I remember Jerry Lucas at 6-8 being an All-American center at Ohio State, and he also played effectively at center for the Cincinnati Royals in the NBA.

 

[Walker Fan]

Olah is 7' or 7'1" and Joey van Zegeren is 6'10" and Dererk Pardon has been listed at 6'9", Aaron Falzon is listed at 6'8" and Skelly is 6'8" or 6'9". So for the 2015-2016, we will have good size. Your point is correct that if you have athletic 7'0" you differentiate yourself. Kentucky has three talented 7' in Towns, Cauley-Stein and Dakari Johnson, and athletic 6'10" forwards in Marcus Lee, Trey Lyles and that is one of the main reasons they have the no. 1 defense and are 27-0. Yes, Lucas was 6'8" and won a title at OSU in 1959-1960. There are more big guys playing now and Collins is recruiting them hard for the 2016 class after Olah graduates.

 

[willycat]

Kat, I've stayed out of this comparison of different NU squads until now but you stating that Sobo is a better ball handler than Mac is absurd. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the times that NU had great difficulty getting the ball over half court when Sobo was at the point. He hardly ever brought the ball over without having to pass at least one time and anytime the opponent pressed NU struggled. MacIntosh is superior to Sobo in shooting, ball handling, passing and even defense simply because he is taller and quicker

 

[pawildcat]

Well, Katatonic's post mentioned athletic 6-11, 7-foot centers these days, so my response should be taken in that light. It's hard to find them now, and it was a lot harder years ago. Olah is certainly tall and is developing into a decent college center, especially in the zone, but he's certainly no Frank Kaminsky. As you say, Kentucky's dominating season shows what happens when you can put a couple of these guys together. It doesn't happen often. Given roughly similar athletic ability, a 7-footer has a significant advantage over a 6-8 guy.

 

[Styre]

The 2012 team was better than the 2015 team. This is pretty much inarguable. They finished 55 in RPI and 66 in kenpom; this year's team is 121 and 111, respectively, and they're not jumping 50-60 spots in the final 2 weeks.

Now, could several players on the 2015 team go on to be part of a team in 2016 or 2017 that is better than the 2012 team? Sure, and I hope they do! And you're right that a lack of athleticism cost Carmody's teams, especially defensively. But this desire some NU fans have to crap all over our most successful era since the 1930s is mind-boggling.

 

[hdhntr1]

To be fair, BC did win some here. Just that the guys he brought in and his system were not really able to handle the big boys.

 

[clarificationcat]

You lost me with "Swop wasn't quite the shooter that Johnny was". Shurna was one of the best shooters in college basketball and a first team All-Big Ten player. Swop was a serviceable offensive player that I liked a lot but he didn't offset Shurna's scoring with his rebounding and defense. He averaged 10 points a game less and 1.6 rebounds more than Shurna, while shooting 36% from 3 point range to Shurna's 44%. He also averaged about one less steal and blocked shot a game than Shurna. He was a better all-around defender but no way close to making up for the offensive disparity. The 2012-2013 team was deep at the 1, 2 and 3 (I am a bigger fan of Sobo's than most and Cobb could provide some minutes at point). It did not have a B1G center and had no depth at power forward, so I have a hard time concluding it was a deep team. It had 5 good players if you count Sobo, one decent sub in Alex M (and I am probably being kind) and a bunch of other guys who either were not ready (Lumpkin, Abrahamson, Demps and Olah) or were never going to be ready. Even with a healthy Cobb and Crawford, Carmody would have needed to play Turner and Olah a lot of minutes. That's not good depth. And I think you underestimate the effect that Shurna had on the offensive end in creating opportunities for his teammates. Everyone benefited from having defenses focused on Shurna, especially Drew.

This post was edited on 2/24 5:45 PM by clarificationcat