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The Stanford Way

GrandRapidsCatFan

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Gold Member
Aug 9, 2022
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Nothing revs my engine for a productive work week like mulling over the state of athletics at my favorite B1G university. As I was thinking this morning, about the conflicting ideas of what our coaches knew, and whether hazing is acceptable in some degree, or what even rises to the level of hazing, a parallel struck me I hadn't considered before.

I wonder if, in setting up the leadership councils the way that he did, as student led, self-policing groups, with no direct coach oversight, if our football program and perhaps others didn't happen to create a Stanford Prison scenario.

It sits right with me in a lot of ways. It explains why the coaches ought to be accountable, while also not necessarily making them responsible for condoning or participating in hazing.

Rather, it might make them responsible for something potentially worse.

I remember participating in the thread about Rico Tarver's name, and looking at some old details about the Randy Walker era. Whether the hazing goes back that far, or further, my impression is that with Walker, the buck stopped with him in a very strong way. Players knew he was harsh, and kept in line because coach demanded it. Not a council of peers. And frankly, think our team character has been on a downward trajectory since the passing of Walker.

I think the conclusion that I'm settling on is that the mechanisms put in place to keep players in line backfired spectacularly. There's a degree of separation between that and hazing, and yes, any manager of a team should know if their organizational structure is failing. And say what you want about hazing, I think its now clear that ours was failing. I think, maybe, we created a situation that any freshman in a Psych 101 elective learns about. And really, I think that's why the attempt to seek restitution for hazing sits uneasy with me - because, if you agree that there was a problem, the both the lawsuit and the administrative response are just addressing a symptom and doing nothing to even speak the root cause of the problem within organizational structure.

There's no need to eliminate sports. The counterintuitive conclusion is that we need stronger, more direct leaders in our coaching positions. I suppose this might rankle some of the pro-Fitz lot, but you have to admit, he delegated quite a bit of responsibility to his kids. And that might not have been the most responsible thing to do...

Just thoughts I'm mulling over today. I need some basketball games to get my mind on other things ASAP.
 
I think Fitz's pristine legacy dies with his inability to have known where to draw the line on hazing vs. "knuckleheads being knuckleheads." I'd still like to believe if Fitz had any idea it was as bad as some guys are saying, he would've put a stop to it - not out of fear of people lawyering up, but because he genuinely was against hazing, even though his definition of what that meant was clearly askew.

If Fitz could be honest right now about the whole situation, without it leading to legal culpability and what not, I'd like to think his honest position on the matter would be that he knew stuff was going on, but he had no idea they were quite so out of hand or that there were players who genuinely felt distress.

Even if he heard about things in 2008 or 2012 or 2016 (or all of those), it's easy for me to imagine he heard it from 10 guys who could barely get through the story without laughing (and reassuring him that EVERYONE was in on it - but that's why you don't trust a 19 year old to explain anything, ever.)

So when you have a variety of players - sophomores to seniors, telling him over the years how the linemen liked to do the Gatorade chug to see who could do it without vomiting first - it makes me think back to a guy in college who used to host a milk chug on the quad: literally he would charge idiots $20 and then give them a gallon of milk to drink in an hour without throwing up. We all watched it on the campus TV station - EVERYONE was a willing participant (or so it would seem...not that I would know if a guy was bullied into it by his fraternity...)
 
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"I'd like to think his honest position on the matter would be that he knew stuff was going on, but he had no idea they were quite so out of hand or that there were players who genuinely felt distress."

Well that's the horror of the Stanford prison experiment, when you have a two-tiered system where the top tier can use whatever coercive strategies they deem appropriate within a highly aggressive cohort playing a very violent game, you can both maintain ignorance to what is going on, but you also ought to know that its going to devolve into this. I'm starting to believe that coach didn't know, but agree that he ought to have known that this was an inevitable outcome of the structure he put in place and/or emphasized much more than previous coaches.

But admittedly, I've never played for the team, wasn't real close to that circle while I was on campus. I'm very much speculating as an outsider, and yeah, I did some dumb stuff in college too. That stuff happens, for sure.
 
I think Fitz's pristine legacy dies with his inability to have known where to draw the line on hazing vs. "knuckleheads being knuckleheads." I'd still like to believe if Fitz had any idea it was as bad as some guys are saying, he would've put a stop to it - not out of fear of people lawyering up, but because he genuinely was against hazing, even though his definition of what that meant was clearly asket.

If Fitz could be honest right now about the whole situation, without it leading to legal culpability and what not, I'd like to think his honest position on the matter would be that he knew stuff was going on, but he had no idea they were quite so out of hand or that there were players who genuinely felt distress.

Even if he heard about things in 2008 or 2012 or 2016 (or all of those), it's easy for me to imagine he heard it from 10 guys who could barely get through the story without laughing (and reassuring him that EVERYONE was in on it - but that's why you don't trust a 19 year old to explain anything, ever.)

So when you have a variety of players - sophomores to seniors, telling him over the years how the linemen liked to do the Gatorade chug to see who could do it without vomiting first - it makes me think back to a guy in college who used to host a milk chug on the quad: literally he would charge idiots $20 and then give them a gallon of milk to drink in an hour without throwing up. We all watched it on the campus TV station - EVERYONE was a willing participant (or so it would seem...not that I would know if a guy was bullied into it by his fraternity...)
Fitz is not an X and O guy. He's not a technocrat or micromanager. He's a big direction, cheerleader-motivator-culture guy. I think he trusted the players and the culture he thought he had assembled through recruiting. Eventually, this bit him in the arse.

If he knew any of his players were significantly impacted, I think he would have stopped it right then and there. Ultimately, whatever happened occurred under his watch, and he bears some responsibility. That is why CEOs like Fitz are very well paid.
 
Fitz is not an X and O guy. He's not a technocrat or micromanager. He's a big direction, cheerleader-motivator-culture guy. I think he trusted the players and the culture he thought he had assembled through recruiting. Eventually, this bit him in the arse.

If he knew any of his players were significantly impacted, I think he would have stopped it right then and there. Ultimately, whatever happened occurred under his watch, and he bears some responsibility. That is why CEOs like Fitz are very well paid.
You are correct. Good to see someone thinking straight.
He does bear some responsibility. We don't know how much (yet).

Pat Fitzgerald was also the respected public face of Northwestern University, with a program admired for the consistent accomplishments of the players he helped develop.

But due to a circular firing squad of inept administrators, vengeful trustees, jealous faculty and self-destructive amateur journalists, he's been dealt with.
 
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