Basketball season starts in 7 weeks!
- Thread starter PurpleWhiteBoy
- Start date
I just commented on FB board that at keast BB will win a few of non-B1G games against crap opponents. Maybe steal a couple of B1G wins too
Gordie, Bob is on a roll, let it go.
The football and basketball teams are two completely different scenarios. In football there is enough talent to at least win half you games. It’s just terrible Coaching. The HC is a God and has the backing of the majority of the people that matter. In basketball, we are overmatched in talent in most every B1G game. Until that changes in Basketball NU will struggle. The HC Has the backing of almost no one that matters. Maybe we can get that exceptional basketball coaching genius that Bob pines for, but we have never had it in the history of the program.
queue, who recruits the players retort.
Said the least of the fans out here who has the biggest axe to grind.
Yes, I'm obviously blaming it 100% on the fans. No hyperbole there.
But you keep going ahead and ignoring the complexity of the issue and play these worthless games you play.
I have Bob, aka Alex, on ignore most of the time. If that is his “roll”, I hate to imagine his normal mode.
I will offer to you that the basketball HC has the backing of me, and I matter (but I know what you mean).
I will offer to you that the basketball HC has the backing of me, and I matter (but I know what you mean).
Might want to watch that statement, PPD. I posted the same idea several times last year and the kill-Collins crowd didn't want to accept that. My personal favorite was the post that had our talent even with half of the B10 and four other teams that weren't measurably better than us.
It's one of many reasons the biggest mouths are so lost on why this problem continues. It's not as easy as new coach = long-term winning program. Collins is a problem, but there are MANY other issues that need to be addressed so the next guy doesn't have the mountain of challenges that Carmody, CC and every other NU coach has seen.
Carmody raised bar, CcC raised bar. Both hit head on ceiling, time to move. Both are good guys but not the right guys. No good argument for CCC if the school plans to spend tens of millions on the program. With the financial commitment comes implied expectations of success. Otherwise, don’t waste the money and nobody cares who you hire, who you play or recruit or what the facility looks like.
Im asking for consistency. I could do no worse as coach for either team right now than the status quo. That’s a waste.
Super complex. One guy is responsible to identify talent, recruit talent, coach talent, plan for games and coach in game. No GM involved. So if there is a failure, it ultimately falls to the HC.
Lesser programs have succeeded on finding less than top rated talent and coaching into success. Apparently, NU cannot enjoy such success. Instead, spend millions for failure and brag about what brilliance comes out of the institution.
Hello Dr Gragg - glad to see you here. Enjoy the rest of your heralded career. Just wait for those offers to roll in as you are building a resume to equal your last two predecessors. Good job. Enjoy the wins and the attendance in MBB this year. I bet the only line longer than potential sponsors will be institutions wanting to interview you. But keep on with CCC and your theory. Not like there is any national, or even local, media coverage anymore.
Didn’t CCC go to the dance? Did he suit up? Who played those games?
Didnt BC go to several post season tournies? Again, who played? You mean that low level talent NU is stuck with because of admissions led to a dance and several tournies but has now flamed out? Hmmmmm
Come on guys. Collins is a below average coach by Big Ten standards.
It isn't debatable, really.
People who like him are going to argue that the talent is poor. I disagree.
But I'm always going to side with (and cheer for) the players, even if I am blunt about what I perceive as their shortcomings.
Collins did a crap job last year. I will never change my mind on that. I think the evidence is very supportive of my opinion. The interest in Nance and Young by North Carolina and Duke speaks volumes. It is dishonest intellectually to ignore it.
I am hoping we shock people this year. You know I want Matt Nicholson to take the league by storm, after getting buried by a nonsense rotation last year. Hunger and Martinelli haven't proven they can't play - I will give them (and Collins) the benefit of the doubt until we see otherwise.
I hope Barnhizer justifies the optimism I have about him too! And Roper. Buie can play. Maybe he and Roper can make it work.
The team is not without talent, but the coach has to know who his best players are.
It is Collins track record of getting little development from most of his recruits that has everyone so pessimistic.
Not me. Its a new year and (hopefully) the "stretch 5" will never be seen again at NU.
Go big. Pound it inside. Rebound. Play defense. Win.
It isn't debatable, really.
People who like him are going to argue that the talent is poor. I disagree.
But I'm always going to side with (and cheer for) the players, even if I am blunt about what I perceive as their shortcomings.
Collins did a crap job last year. I will never change my mind on that. I think the evidence is very supportive of my opinion. The interest in Nance and Young by North Carolina and Duke speaks volumes. It is dishonest intellectually to ignore it.
I am hoping we shock people this year. You know I want Matt Nicholson to take the league by storm, after getting buried by a nonsense rotation last year. Hunger and Martinelli haven't proven they can't play - I will give them (and Collins) the benefit of the doubt until we see otherwise.
I hope Barnhizer justifies the optimism I have about him too! And Roper. Buie can play. Maybe he and Roper can make it work.
The team is not without talent, but the coach has to know who his best players are.
It is Collins track record of getting little development from most of his recruits that has everyone so pessimistic.
Not me. Its a new year and (hopefully) the "stretch 5" will never be seen again at NU.
Go big. Pound it inside. Rebound. Play defense. Win.
It is perfectly possible to cheer for a team, wishing it to do well and, at the same time, be critical of the coach.
Supporting a coach at all costs is a whole lot more mind boggling to me. Is that a fan? Or an institutional cheerleader?
Supporting a coach at all costs is a whole lot more mind boggling to me. Is that a fan? Or an institutional cheerleader?
Like I said, PPD, saying there's no talent doesn't fit the agenda or the beaten-to-death statements. So it must be wrong.
If you really want to see wrong, watch how mediocre Barnhizer is. But of course, we know whose fault that will be.
You just go on living in your simplistic world, Bob. You have the true lack of analytical thinking that got NU into this decades-long mess in the first place.
You are never going to give that nonsense up are you?
It is so easy for a handful of you guys to blame the players and absolve the coach for recruiting them, as if the players themselves were conspiring to make the coach look bad by accepting his scholarship offer, then playing poorly.
It is a ludicrous position to cling to.
One of these days I would love to hear a logical argument as to how Chris Collins is a good coach... because it is really easy to present facts that indicate he isn't.
All I see is silly conspiracy theories.
It's so incredible how you only see your version of everybody here. But I've come to understand details aren't your strength.
How could anyone possibly disagree with every point of your never-ending sermon?
Once you get my view correct about Collins anywhere in the ballpark of correct, then we can start talking. There are years of comments from me out here about CC. And long before you turned the discussion to such a mindless, narcissistic level.
You go ahead and keep thinking this is only about continually-wrong stats, rotations and second-string centers. I look forward to when you get anything correct - even the most simple, first-paragraph position.
Let's try to get just one thing straight before the season starts ... just one very obvious thing that EVERYBODY understands except the most blind out here.
We can cut the crap that there's some large contingent banging the Collins drum. There 's one guy out here ... ONE GUY who speaks up continuously in support of CC. MAYBE there are two other guys in the background.
I have no clue why the jackasses won't allow him to live in that world, but that's what they do. God forbid there's a disagreement.
Even the friggin' AD has mindlessly thrown a few logs on the hot seat and generally supports the position that Collins is on his way out.
Are you really still pretending there's a long parade of behind the dead man walking? Are you really going to continue these ridiculously long sermons with laughable exaggerations about every move in the program? Good luck with that.
You must not understand how discussion works. If somebody states a specific opinion that you disagree with, you engage by stating a counter argument and providing evidence to support your belief. (Okay, you did say Barnhizer is mediocre - good for you). Seriously, you should try it - join those of us who are opinionated, but civil.
Unfortunately, your preference is to attack me (and others) personally and cite odd conspiracies. It comes off as quite childish.
I guess you "forgot" but there was a poll conducted in February and 58% of the respondents said they believed Collins deserved another season, with 39% saying he should not be fired this year in any circumstance.
So there is (or was) significant support, regardless of how you want to spin it now.
Collins: Stay or Go Criteria
Thought I’d redirect our discussion on this from some other threads and see where the group is at given the little mini-streak here. Where does everybody stand on Collins given the final season result?
northwestern.forums.rivals.com
Not really sure how my statement implies that there's a lot of support for CC. Or not.
It does imply though, that it is perfectly fine and normal to be critical of a coach, and still be a fan wanting the program to do well. Something it feels to me you are attacking, that idea that you are not a true fan if you criticize the coach even before the season starts.
Personally I show up in Evanston once a year. Along with showing up in Bloomington, West Lafayette and Champaign when NU plays there. I know, it does not come close to the purity of having my tushy in a seat at the WR of every game. Second class fan, criticizes and does not even show up.
To have a true discussion, the other person needs to listen. If one side only wants to speak and not listen or understand, then it's just a sermon.
There's plenty out here about my position on Collins, his coaching and talent - some even directly with you. Here's a little secret: you even agreed with a large portion of my view at one point late last year.
Im sorry you chose not to listen or understand my most basic position. I hope the rest of the board will excuse me if I don't feel the need to waste my time and repeat this or the position I've stated many times.
The irony is thick. But I suspect all 5-6 people left interested in MBB already have opinions about where each other stand. So no need to repeat unless you think someone needs clarity or your position has changed.
News flash - I don't remember who said what at various points in time. I don't go back and read thru the old posts and arguments. Who has time for that? I just try to keep general concepts of where individuals are coming from and what they say.
I do not hold any personal grudges toward anybody on here. Not even those individuals who cannot read what I write with any objectivity. Not my problem.
My "general impression" of you is that you have been a season ticket holder for a long time, that you have a general awareness of what is wrong with the program, are frustrated by it but lash out at people with condescending, personal attacks, as if you feel entitled to do so because you go to a lot of games. You seem to feel that attending games makes your opinions about the program and evaluation of players more "correct" than those who primarily watch the games on TV with the benefit of replay. Those attitudes undermine the value of your opinion.
I think the whole vibe of this board is to attack people when there is a disagreement. Candidly, for me, it isn’t the message that grinds my gears, it’s the delivery. The condescending, how can you not see what I see or think like I think. Most of these discussions have little middle ground and rarely acknowledge a person’s position before they deteriorate. For those reasons, I will likely be a limited participant in any “discussion” during the season. My position of not enough talent has been well documented and that is the primary reason I expect poor results.
I think you have stated the situation well. Nobody views himself as an idiot. Nobody likes to make an effort to present information or an opinion and then have people attack him personally for trying to further the discussion.
I admit freely that I can be sarcastic about things that I see as facts supported by the evidence. "how can you not see that?" is blunt but not nearly as bad as "You are a fricking idiot." because it is asking/challenging someone to explain their logic, rather than attacking him / her.
I hope you stick around. Its going to be an interesting year.
Assuming you are right, it's still possible to not have "enough talent" while having a coach who stinks. In other words, other coaches would do better with the same subpar talent.
I base my opinions on CC, like most people, for the most part, on my own two eyes. For as much as we all check stats and all, it's ultimately very hard for us to move away from what our instinct is telling us.
Instinct aside, the one number that absolutely baffles me is, since the Disney season, the constant luck ranking in the 300's. Algorithms are not biased towards universities based in Evanston.
I'm with you. How many other people have stated the same thing over the last year or two? The community has basically died over the last two years after a pretty decent run.
We could all pretend it's solely because the program is in such bad shape. That obviously plays a part. But the program has been this bad in the past, and pretty reasonable discussion has continued out here.
For me, the cherry on top was when ThatKidfromHolland called it quits. I was never a huge fan or anything, but he was always one of the more low key, reasonable regulars out here. Somebody should have been concerned when he raised a few issues. But here we are ... a case study on how to kill a limited community and any value that online group has.
I'll take my share of the blame for the vibe on the board, but I've sharply decreased my usage. Also, I'm not the only idiot out here.
Oh, I definitely have my moments of cheap, childish personal attacks. And most of them, I proudly stand by.
I can be a real as&h*l@. Yet, I've rarely had anyone come after me or shout me down in 10+ ... I don't know how many years. And I'll be the first to admit I deserved it.
Now, let's compare that to how many people have come after you in the last two years alone.
So you might want to use your cheap psychology for some self reflection. But I've come to understand that's not one of your strengths.
Good luck with another season of your repetitive, distorted agenda.
"Good luck with another season of your repetitive, distorted agenda."
You don't get it. I don't have an agenda. I don't know what I'm going to write about this season. We have to actually play some games first. I hope we shock all the skeptics.
And yes, once we start playing Power-6 competition, I'll throw some +/- numbers out there and try to identify what lineups seem to be working and which ones seem to be failing.
Lots of oddities last year with the lineups... With the new season comes a relatively clean slate... and because I'm fair-minded, I'll let the results inform my opinions. Just like the last two seasons.
Cool - gang up mentality for reasoning. Hmmm….I think there are examples of the crowd being in the wrong…but I don’t want to hurt any feelings so I defer.
Actually, I give PWB lots of credit. He rarely, compared to others, takes it personal despite the constant personal attacks. Something I can’t do - I get right in it.
That is what probably drove the mob away. They couldn’t break him and it drove them nuts while the team pretty much validated his substantive points.
The mob wanted a better team, wanted the Disney ending and took it out on him to their own ultimate frustrations. My hat is off to PWB - a far better poster than me.
Actually, I give PWB lots of credit. He rarely, compared to others, takes it personal despite the constant personal attacks. Something I can’t do - I get right in it.
Go Cats!
Let’s try another side of this argument. PWB incessantly used a spurious stat (one which he would not accept as being limited) to jam his agenda (you have an agenda when literally every statement.you make is a shot at the coach who built a team that took us to the dance) repeatedly down everyone’s throat, while literally stating that Collins is an idiot (the reason I put him on ignore). I have also found PWB to be reasonable and sympathetic to others at times, which is an encouraging sign. But the vitriol he largely created on this board is prima facie evidence that his arguments were not unbiased nor impenetrable.
Go Cats!
At which point are the 3 of you just going to unzip your pants and see who's is bigger...
Am I the only one that finds the inherent irony within this post to be quite amusing?
