Baylor's SG Al Freeman (top-100, ex-Duke offeree) will grad, transfer

[FeliSilvestris]

Baylor's SG grad transfer Al Freeman may be the perfect one-year substitute to MSmith, if as many fear, Smith goes elsewhere. Out of HS he was a consensus top 100 (top 60 by some). Per Rivals he got a Duke's offer, which suggests he was a decent student in HS (hopefully has done well in college). Furthermore, CC probably was in touch with him, when he was being recruited by Duke, so they probably know each other, at least. Let's see what happens.
EDIT: A concern is that this season he was briefly suspended for "team rules" violation. It was only for 3 games so, perhaps it wasn't too serious. The coach spoke highly of him while announcing his transfer (but coaches normally do):
“Al has been a tremendous student-athlete and made great contributions to our program over the last four years,” said Baylor coach Scott Drew. “We’re thrilled that he’s going to complete his degree at Baylor. He’ll always be part of the Baylor family and we’ll be rooting for him as he continues his career.”

 

[Max_Power]

"Duke's offer, which suggests he was a decent student" -- A Duke offer does not suggest he was a decent student. Duke's admissions for basketball and more recently football have been sacrificed in the name of athletic glory. A Duke offer suggests Coach K saw him as a piece of a Top-10 team which is what NU aspires to be so if he can cut it academically - bring him on!

 

[FeliSilvestris]

" A Duke offer does not suggest he was a decent student.

It depends on what "decent" means. I do believe Duke BkB recruits satisfy a reasonable definition of decent scholarship. In fact, many Duke's offerees are also NU recruits (although few if any take NU over DU).

 

[loyolacat]

This is a general comment about the whole transfer deal. Division I schools are averaging over 2 transfers a year. In a situation where both parties come to an agreement system seems ok. School has some rights, student as well. Worst scenario there are some schools where the player may not go.....upside the player gets to go to a school where he may play more based on a more mature evaluation of his talents. This may involve moving up the ladder as he discovers he has more talent than he thought. He may have to sit a year but now may get a year of graduate school payed for. Problem is when school and player are on different pages. Maybe a 1/3 system works. Where you are guaranteed one year in which both parties should be able to determine if they are a fit and then if you stay it is guaranteed 3 years with situations to transfer are more specific and penalties more severe?????
The Johnnie Vassar situation is intriguing. He is either one stubborn easily insulted dude who enjoys putting a lot of effort into payback or he is that rare athletic dude who really values the education about the athletic and specifically NU.....

 

[willycat]

This is a general comment about the whole transfer deal. Division I schools are averaging over 2 transfers a year. In a situation where both parties come to an agreement system seems ok. School has some rights, student as well. Worst scenario there are some schools where the player may not go.....upside the player gets to go to a school where he may play more based on a more mature evaluation of his talents. This may involve moving up the ladder as he discovers he has more talent than he thought. He may have to sit a year but now may get a year of graduate school payed for. Problem is when school and player are on different pages. Maybe a 1/3 system works. Where you are guaranteed one year in which both parties should be able to determine if they are a fit and then if you stay it is guaranteed 3 years with situations to transfer are more specific and penalties more severe?????
The Johnnie Vassar situation is intriguing. He is either one stubborn easily insulted dude who enjoys putting a lot of effort into payback or he is that rare athletic dude who really values the education about the athletic and specifically NU.....

I'll vote for #1.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

I'd be very wary of anyone connected to Baylor. Freeman may very well be a wonderful, stand-up guy, but let's make sure we do all necessary due diligence. This is the school where the basketball program tried to cover up a murder and impugned the victim as a drug dealer. The football program tried to cover up a culture of rape and bringing in known bad guys. A women's coach threatened to punch people in the face. Individuals within the Baylor athletic world may be fine, but they are certainly worthy of "extreme vetting".

 

[gocatsgo2003]

It depends on what "decent" means. I do believe Duke BkB recruits satisfy a reasonable definition of decent scholarship. In fact, many Duke's offerees are also NU recruits (although few if any take NU over DU).

You believe incorrectly. Duke has essentially zero academic requirements for its athletes above NCAA minimums.

 

[chicagocatfan24]

I'd be very wary of anyone connected to Baylor. Freeman may very well be a wonderful, stand-up guy, but let's make sure we do all necessary due diligence. This is the school where the basketball program tried to cover up a murder and impugned the victim as a drug dealer. The football program tried to cover up a culture of rape and bringing in known bad guys. A women's coach threatened to punch people in the face. Individuals within the Baylor athletic world may be fine, but they are certainly worthy of "extreme vetting".

I'm proposing a 90 day transfer ban on all Baylor athletes into Northwestern University

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Individuals within the Baylor athletic world may be fine, but they are certainly worthy of "extreme vetting".

No problem with "extreme vetting" of potential Baylor transfers. In this case, there is the additional benefit of an earlier connection between CC and the potential transfer. Still, a careful examination of his circumstances would seem appropriate.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

You believe incorrectly. Duke has essentially zero academic requirements for its athletes above NCAA minimums.

Care to provide a link backing up your statement?
Presumably one of the reasons to hire CC was that there were common aspects between Duke's and NU's admission requirements for BkB. Not that they were identical, but presumably Duke's are closer to NU's than to your typical BkB factory.

 

[Mr Wickerpark]

Care to provide a link backing up your statement?
Presumably one of the reasons to hire CC was that there were common aspects between Duke's and NU's admission requirements for BkB. Not that they were identical, but presumably Duke's are closer to NU's than to your typical BkB factory.

Duke has not lowered their standards as low as the previous poster suggests. Its still tougher to get in duke as opposed to Tennessee. Felis is correct.

 

[Mr Wickerpark]

I also suggest that NU give CC more flexibility. We got a taste of national exposure but to maintain a national position CC will have to get wiggle room waivers. Obviously, that will happen otherwise CC wouldnt be sticking around.

 

[Max_Power]

This is a quote from 1992 - Duke athlete admissions are such common knowledge that when you use google, the only articles are really old : "The average SAT score for a Duke freshman is approximately 1,310, according to the school's admissions office. The four 1990 Duke basketball recruits who took the SAT averaged 865, according to the NCAA report."

I looked it up, the average SAT in 1990 was 1000.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Care to provide a link backing up your statement?
Presumably one of the reasons to hire CC was that there were common aspects between Duke's and NU's admission requirements for BkB. Not that they were identical, but presumably Duke's are closer to NU's than to your typical BkB factory.

This is one where you're going to probably use my experience against me -- I've seen transcripts and test scores for football players that have ultimately matriculated at Duke that we couldn't even touch at NU. The same goes for Vanderbilt. It isn't every single kid because there's some level of self-selection (i.e. as higher-caliber academic schools, Duke and Vandy will attract some pretty strong students), but there aren't really "requirements" that would support the conclusion that a Duke or Vandy offer necessarily means a kid would qualify at NU by construct.

If you want actual, "linkable" examples, the Sean Dockery story in which he self-reported a 2.3 GPA and 15 ACT to the Chicago Tribune and ultimately matriculated at Duke is the most "go-to" example; while I couldn't find many live links as the story is pretty old, the thread available here (<---) has a pretty extensive discussion with copy-and-pasted excerpts of both Dockery's situation and others.

Another go-to example is the oft-reported tale in which Tommy Amaker brought two transcripts to his Northwestern interview to see whether either would qualify. Amaker withdrew his name from consideration after being told neither would qualify, which is a shame because Christian Laettner and Bobby Hurley were pretty darn good players who did fine for themselves at Duke. That one is available all over the place, but this is probably the most succinct telling (<---) and also includes a bonus discussion on how NU could maintain its high academic reputation while giving coaches a bit more leeway in admissions.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Duke has not lowered their standards as low as the previous poster suggests. Its still tougher to get in duke as opposed to Tennessee. Felis is correct.

And the basis for your statement is... what again?

 

[Max_Power]

I also suggest that NU give CC more flexibility. We got a taste of national exposure but to maintain a national position CC will have to get wiggle room waivers. Obviously, that will happen otherwise CC wouldnt be sticking around.

NU appears focused only on making sure that the players who enroll graduate.

 

[Mr Wickerpark]

NU appears focused only on making sure that the players who enroll graduate.

I think we have ample evidence that Collins brought more of a winning attitude and will get rid of a kid if he doesnt work out. Vasser, kyle, and the bigmen that carmody recruited, Cher and i forget the other one.
Collins expects production. His recruits need to do more than graduate. I agree with you if you are referring to BC.

And i agree with the author of the article that gocatsgo linked. A couple C students arent going to destroy an institution.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

This is one where you're going to probably use my experience against me -- I've seen transcripts and test scores for football players that have ultimately matriculated at Duke that we couldn't even touch at NU. The same goes for Vanderbilt. It isn't every single kid because there's some level of self-selection (i.e. as higher-caliber academic schools, Duke and Vandy will attract some pretty strong students), but there aren't really "requirements" that would support the conclusion that a Duke or Vandy offer necessarily means a kid would qualify at NU by construct.

First, you may NOT have read my OP correctly. I said that "a Duke's offer... suggests he was a decent student in HS". None of your arguments or evidence (dated as it is) indicates otherwise. I don't know what "decent student" means to you. To me a decent student is not the same as an EXCELLENT student, or even a VERY GOOD student, or a plain GOOD student. A decent student is one who (possibly with reasonable and ethical help, such as legal tutoring) can do the work not to flunk out or get into academic problems at a rigorous college. Again, no evidence whatsoever that Duke is offering athletic schollies to non-decent students (certainly not as a matter of general policy).

It is not just self-selection. AFAIK, Duke student athletes must still pass the same exams that normal students do (for the most part, anyway). Hence, if DU made the mistake of admitting very weak students, many would quickly become academically ineligible, probably flunk out, or quit for academic reasons. Not only would that be terrible publicity for their AD and the university as a whole. It would also be highly disruptive to their teams, since they would be constantly losing players for academic reasons.

Finally, an analysis from the late 2000's comparing Duke's admission standards for athletes to those of Stanford concluded that indeed Duke's were lower, but no far lower, and still higher than relatively rigorous state schools like UNC.

North Carolina average GPA: 2.84
Duke average GPA: 3.13
Stanford average GPA: 3.46

North Carolina average SAT: 915
Duke average SAT: 968
Stanford average SAT: 1123

Again, a Duke's offer does SUGGEST that the offeree is a DECENT student.

 

[willycat]

I think we have ample evidence that Collins brought more of a winning attitude and will get rid of a kid if he doesnt work out. Vasser, kyle, and the bigmen that carmody recruited, Cher and i forget the other one.
Collins expects production. His recruits need to do more than graduate. I agree with you if you are referring to BC.

And i agree with the author of the article that gocatsgo linked. A couple C students arent going to destroy an institution.

Well, way back in the horse & buggy days of Gary Barnett, there were accusations that NU admissions standards were lowered making his two Big Ten Championships possible. The guys you referenced, who were recruited before Collins was hired, were just plain not Big Ten quality players. They saw that they would be tied to the end of the bench and decided to try elsewhere. Most unsuccessfully.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

North Carolina average SAT: 915
Duke average SAT: 968
Stanford average SAT: 1123

Average, of course, means that half are below that. Assuming there's a walk-on or two with normal Duke credentials of 1300-1500 SATs (and you know Duke's going to include those to goose the numbers), that means some, if not many, of the scholarship players will be significantly below the 968 average. I guess "decent" is a subjective term, though.

 

[catfans5]

First, you may NOT have read my OP correctly. I said that "a Duke's offer... suggests he was a decent student in HS". None of your arguments or evidence (dated as it is) indicates otherwise. I don't know what "decent student" means to you. To me a decent student is not the same as an EXCELLENT student, or even a VERY GOOD student, or a plain GOOD student. A decent student is one who (possibly with reasonable and ethical help, such as legal tutoring) can do the work not to flunk out or get into academic problems at a rigorous college. Again, no evidence whatsoever that Duke is offering athletic schollies to non-decent students (certainly not as a matter of general policy).

It is not just self-selection. AFAIK, Duke student athletes must still pass the same exams that normal students do (for the most part, anyway). Hence, if DU made the mistake of admitting very weak students, many would quickly become academically ineligible, probably flunk out, or quit for academic reasons. Not only would that be terrible publicity for their AD and the university as a whole. It would also be highly disruptive to their teams, since they would be constantly losing players for academic reasons.

Finally, an analysis from the late 2000's comparing Duke's admission standards for athletes to those of Stanford concluded that indeed Duke's were lower, but no far lower, and still higher than relatively rigorous state schools like UNC.

North Carolina average GPA: 2.84
Duke average GPA: 3.13
Stanford average GPA: 3.46

North Carolina average SAT: 915
Duke average SAT: 968
Stanford average SAT: 1123

Again, a Duke's offer does SUGGEST that the offeree is a DECENT student.

You are using North Carolina as an example. Isn't that the same UNC that got caught having a tutor program in which the tutors wrote the papers or did the work for the entire athletic department, especially men's ball and football? Nice comparison.

I have had major disagreements with GCG, but he has actual experience in recruiting and evaluating recruits. You have none.

You and others keep bringing up grad transfers. What a waste. If you had actuall gone to games, you could see the difference in Mr Brown over the year, as well as the back up center this year whose name I can not remember while watching my daughter play at a basket ball camp. The improvement in these two, as well as every person in the program, had been incredible. Just think about how much Alex Olah improved, The coaching staff is remarkable.

We get 2 back and one incoming members. We lose Tap and Sanjay. Look at their improvement over 4 years. Who brought that about? Loved Sanjay, but we were playing 4 Against 5 on offense. You could see in person that the other team left him alone. I would rather get a Frosh who can be coached and red shirted than a 5th year grad transfer, especially the one mentioned who comes from a team which played zone.

Please excuse typos. On cell phone.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Average, of course, means that half are below that. Assuming there's a walk-on or two with normal Duke credentials of 1300-1500 SATs (and you know Duke's going to include those to goose the numbers), that means some, if not many, of the scholarship players will be significantly below the 968 average. I guess "decent" is a subjective term, though.

You missed the point, which is that THE DIFFERENCE between SU and DU isn't very large, and that DU still does better than a decent state school.
What you said about walkons (don't know if they are included or not) could be said about ALL THREE of the schools mentioned, hence doesn't give an advantage to any of them.

 

[willycat]

You are using North Carolina as an example. Isn't that the same UNC that got caught having a tutor program in which the tutors wrote the papers or did the work for the entire athletic department, especially men's ball and football? Nice comparison.

I have had major disagreements with GCG, but he has actual experience in recruiting and evaluating recruits. You have none.

You and others keep bringing up grad transfers. What a waste. If you had actuall gone to games, you could see the difference in Mr Brown over the year, as well as the back up center this year whose name I can not remember while watching my daughter play at a basket ball camp. The improvement in these two, as well as every person in the program, had been incredible. Just think about how much Alex Olah improved, The coaching staff is remarkable.

We get 2 back and one incoming members. We lose Tap and Sanjay. Look at their improvement over 4 years. Who brought that about? Loved Sanjay, but we were playing 4 Against 5 on offense. You could see in person that the other team left him alone. I would rather get a Frosh who can be coached and red shirted than a 5th year grad transfer, especially the one mentioned who comes from a team which played zone.

Please excuse typos. On cell phone.

Well NU has not one but two remaining scholarships to fill. Obviously Collins and most everyone else would prefer a highly rated recruit like Smith but if that doesn't materialize then why not get a graduate transfer that will help the program next season. Really would like to see NU play next season with a full compliment of Collins recruits on the roster.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

You are using North Carolina as an example. Isn't that the same UNC that got caught having a tutor program in which the tutors wrote the papers or did the work for the entire athletic department, especially men's ball and football? Nice comparison..

The study was done by other people. I am just quoting them.
Best I can tell the tutoring issue (whatever it was, whenever it happened) couldn't possibly affect the SAT scores or the HS GPA of their recruits, right??
These are admission figures, since that is what they and we are discussing.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Well NU has not one but two remaining scholarships to fill. Obviously Collins and most everyone else would prefer a highly rated recruit like Smith but if that doesn't materialize then why not get a graduate transfer that will help the program next season.

Makes a lot of sense...don't know why some need that explained.

 

[Max_Power]

Wow. You said: "he got a Duke's offer, which suggests he was a decent student in HS." The response was simply no, having a Duke offer does not suggest he was a decent student in HS. You said prove it. So you were offered data and specific examples which only addressed the premise that because a HS basketball player has a Duke offer it suggests they were a decent HS student because historically it does not. But you can't even accept that .... instead you are trying to defend Duke's athletics academics (an oxymoron) by looking at one article looking at one year. That's f'n hilarious.

 

[NUera]

It depends on what "decent" means. I do believe Duke BkB recruits satisfy a reasonable definition of decent scholarship. In fact, many Duke's offerees are also NU recruits (although few if any take NU over DU).

To this, I always say: Sean Dockery got admitted into Duke with a 2.3 GPA and a 15 on the ACT. That was in 2001.