BC new coach at Holy Cross!
- Thread starter catsattackfor3
- Start date
Happy for Bill. Holy Cross is not great now but last went to the NCAA Tournament in 2007. Who will get to the NCAA tournament first? NU or Bill Carmody? Interestingly, their record last year was 14-16.
This post was edited on 3/18 2:31 PM by DocCatsFan
This post was edited on 3/18 2:31 PM by DocCatsFan
Holy Cross plays in a one bid league (but he can coach them up to that there), NU needs to have a great season to get in....tough both ways
Good question, Tejas
I imagine it won't make a difference as long as the shot clock is more than 20 seconds. The goal is still to "slow down the game"/reduce possessions, force the defense to display some discipline and work for a solid shot in whatever time is allotted. Thirty seconds is still plenty of time to work those goals.
Good to see Billy C is back. The game is better with him.
I imagine it won't make a difference as long as the shot clock is more than 20 seconds. The goal is still to "slow down the game"/reduce possessions, force the defense to display some discipline and work for a solid shot in whatever time is allotted. Thirty seconds is still plenty of time to work those goals.
Good to see Billy C is back. The game is better with him.
Re: Good question, Tejas
You have a basic misunderstanding of the Princeton offense, although we did employ it that way out of need some years.
Re: Good question, Tejas
The PO does not HAVE to be a slow-it-down system. Our tempos in some of the offensively prolific Juice-Shurna-Crawford years were very much average nationally. It can be slowed down, if needed, and we of course saw this a lot too. But you can just as easily slow down a traditional motion offense...see: the 2013-2014 NU team when we went on last year's win streak.
The PO does not HAVE to be a slow-it-down system. Our tempos in some of the offensively prolific Juice-Shurna-Crawford years were very much average nationally. It can be slowed down, if needed, and we of course saw this a lot too. But you can just as easily slow down a traditional motion offense...see: the 2013-2014 NU team when we went on last year's win streak.
I don't know if the" Miss Woo" diner is still in business but I hope BC avoids it like the plaque. There may not be the talent gap between the Crusaders and the rest of the league, so the hill he has to climb may not be as steep
JP won't take that chance!!
Of course, NU may win, but everyone would just say, big deal, that is what a B1G team is supposed to do to an inferior conf opponent....but even a close win over HC could mean unwelcome publicity for JP, in this particular context.
I doubt JP would take a chance like that...how'd he look if a BC-led Patriot League team defeats a B1G team led by the guy who replaced BC in Evanston (say, in his 3rd or 4th year)?
Of course, NU may win, but everyone would just say, big deal, that is what a B1G team is supposed to do to an inferior conf opponent....but even a close win over HC could mean unwelcome publicity for JP, in this particular context.
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
I don't think it has anything to do with JP. It's a game between NU and an opponent with a coach who has ties to NU. Sounds like it'd be fun. If we're making a postseason push now, scheduling a Holy Cross shouldn't be something to fear...
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
Feli is 100% correct here. Also, no way BC would do it either. There's a lot of bad blood here and it has taken him two years to get over it to the point where he could even stomach coaching again.
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
Bad blood? From what I recall, BC was paid handsomely for his 13 years of service. Took two years to stomach coaching again? Why?
Best of luck to Coach Carmody. He belongs on a sideline somewhere, and I think Holy Cross will be a good fit. He's back on the East Coast, the Patriot League is a good mid/small-level conference and he'll be a big fish. I look forward to seeing him give a ref one of those disgusted waves soon.
It will be interesting to see who he picks for his staff. Wouldn't surprise me if he reaches out to Jitim and Craig Moore.
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
If getting fired is a problem, then major college coaching is probably not for you.
I really hope this isn't true. I have so much respect for Carmody, but if he has bad blood toward a school that gave him his first power conference coaching opportunity and paid him very well for more than a decade, that would be very disappointing.
If getting fired is a problem, then major college coaching is probably not for you.
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
Presumably you know something the public does not about the situation, but I've only heard Phillips and anyone from the department speak very highly of Carmody. I don't think they screwed him out of any money or bad-mouthed him around the coaching profession. Firing someone and getting fired are both very hard things. Given that firing Carmody was the decision, what might Phillips have done differently?
Presumably you know something the public does not about the situation, but I've only heard Phillips and anyone from the department speak very highly of Carmody. I don't think they screwed him out of any money or bad-mouthed him around the coaching profession. Firing someone and getting fired are both very hard things. Given that firing Carmody was the decision, what might Phillips have done differently?
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
You're right. Nobody with a good salary has ever felt mistreated. My bad.
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
This all said, good luck to Carmody and wish him all the best. Hope the Carmody huggers (and Phillips haters) can finally lay down their arms and be at peace.
BTW, Doc, how much you wanna bet NU gets to the Dance before Holy Cross?
Do you know something (some of) the rest of us don't? What was exactly classless and gutless about the process? And what did Carmody deserve that he didn't get? I know he got something he got that he didn't deserve (13 years), but I'd love to hear what you mean. Might change my perspective on the whole situation.
This all said, good luck to Carmody and wish him all the best. Hope the Carmody huggers (and Phillips haters) can finally lay down their arms and be at peace.
BTW, Doc, how much you wanna bet NU gets to the Dance before Holy Cross?
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
It doesn't make for a pleasant working environment when you know your boss is waiting for you to have one bad season so he can fire you. Even if you're well paid, bad blood can easily develop if you don't feel like management has your back.
Firing BC was justified, but the way it was done left bad tastes in a lot of mouths.
It doesn't make for a pleasant working environment when you know your boss is waiting for you to have one bad season so he can fire you. Even if you're well paid, bad blood can easily develop if you don't feel like management has your back.
Firing BC was justified, but the way it was done left bad tastes in a lot of mouths.
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
Then BY ALL MEANS explain how it should have been done instead. This whole Carmody was mistreated is so ridiculous...
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
Your snarky response aside, you still didn't answer any of my questions. What jaded Carmody so badly he couldn't coach for two years?
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
WOW!!! THIS MAKING CRAP UP ON THE INTERNET IS FUN!!! Ok, not really. I sounded like a moron.
I'm sure Carmody wasn't happy about getting fired and probably isn't sending Phillips a Christmas card. I'm also guessing that neither Phillips nor Carmody are going around and bad mouthing each other due to "bad blood." I think both would do what's best for their universities. I think Carmody would do what's best for his former players, but would then do right by NU too.
If anyone wants to look at the facts, here's what Phillips actually said about it.
"Look at 13 years. Athletic success does matter. It should matter," Phillips said. "We were here a year ago. One of the key differences was, we were down to one year on Bill's contract. I didn't feel an extension was warranted. It would have been really detrimental to the program, to Bill or his staff to try to recruit with less than a year on his contract.
"So the combination of those factors resulted in us making the decision to make a change."
Shockingly, I agree with Feli, that NU has nothing to gain by a game against Carmody's Holy Cross team. While it would be fun for fans, it would put NU in a no win position.
Anyway, good luck to Bill. I shook his hand on a few occasions, and he seemed pretty nice and always had some dry witty humorous thing to say. I think he's in the right place. Despite his coaching greatness, you're never going to be better than an average team in the Big Ten if you don't like to recruit. He's right for a 1 bid league where he can focus on basketball and not fighting for recruits. I think that will make him happier too. I'm assuming he has a comfortable life financially, and can focus on what he loves. I also think that we have the right guy for us. Collins has brought in a level of athlete that we haven't seen at NU. Collins is winning recruiting battles and the games will come. Most importantly, the players seem to love playing for him. I think it worked out for all parties.
Fitz didn't like Carmody. Fitz just wants to keep people around that are his buddies even if their past job was coaching peewee football. Bill Carmody has no experience on the peewee level, so Fitz was intimidated by him and told Phillips to fire him.
WOW!!! THIS MAKING CRAP UP ON THE INTERNET IS FUN!!! Ok, not really. I sounded like a moron.
I'm sure Carmody wasn't happy about getting fired and probably isn't sending Phillips a Christmas card. I'm also guessing that neither Phillips nor Carmody are going around and bad mouthing each other due to "bad blood." I think both would do what's best for their universities. I think Carmody would do what's best for his former players, but would then do right by NU too.
If anyone wants to look at the facts, here's what Phillips actually said about it.
"Look at 13 years. Athletic success does matter. It should matter," Phillips said. "We were here a year ago. One of the key differences was, we were down to one year on Bill's contract. I didn't feel an extension was warranted. It would have been really detrimental to the program, to Bill or his staff to try to recruit with less than a year on his contract.
"So the combination of those factors resulted in us making the decision to make a change."
Shockingly, I agree with Feli, that NU has nothing to gain by a game against Carmody's Holy Cross team. While it would be fun for fans, it would put NU in a no win position.
Anyway, good luck to Bill. I shook his hand on a few occasions, and he seemed pretty nice and always had some dry witty humorous thing to say. I think he's in the right place. Despite his coaching greatness, you're never going to be better than an average team in the Big Ten if you don't like to recruit. He's right for a 1 bid league where he can focus on basketball and not fighting for recruits. I think that will make him happier too. I'm assuming he has a comfortable life financially, and can focus on what he loves. I also think that we have the right guy for us. Collins has brought in a level of athlete that we haven't seen at NU. Collins is winning recruiting battles and the games will come. Most importantly, the players seem to love playing for him. I think it worked out for all parties.
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
Phillips should have fired Carmody after 2009, NIT or not. He wanted him gone, he should have pulled the trigger.
Alternately, he should have afforded Carmody the full support of the athletic department when he didn't fire him.
Also -- none of this matters at this point.
This post was edited on 3/19 1:11 PM by Styre
Phillips should have fired Carmody after 2009, NIT or not. He wanted him gone, he should have pulled the trigger.
Alternately, he should have afforded Carmody the full support of the athletic department when he didn't fire him.
Also -- none of this matters at this point.
This post was edited on 3/19 1:11 PM by Styre
Gutless JP? yes, arguably so.
Essentially the team lost 60% of its starters (with a big drop-off between them and their replacements).
Yet, before Swops went down, the team was just one game under .500 in a VERY STRONG B1G (four B1G finished in the TOP TEN nationally, one more among the top 20, and four more won 8-9 B1G games and had strong seasons...that is a VERY STRONG league)....one game under .500 under such circumstances seems plain miraculous.
Yet, JP took advantage of that extraordinarily anomalous (injury-riddled) season to make the coaching change.
It would have been a lot more controversial to make a coaching change after yet another BC-typical 7-8 B1G win plus NIT season, because many would have thought that that should be enough for NU (even if the coach had been the same for decades). Yet others could reasonably argue that BC had reached a ceiling that he would never exceed (baring some extraordinarily favorable alignment of stars), and NU could do better. That could be a strong argument also, but that was what JP wanted to avoid, because he knew he would look bad among many reasonable people (even outside the NU community) if he made that argument after a BC-typical season (and his risk of hiring a new coach that wouldn't meet those modest standards of sucess would be higher, which may still happen).
So, JP took the easy way out, and took advantage of an anomaly to make the change the "cheap way". Gutless? Yes, arguably so.
As someone who was mostly neutral on the BC-replacement issue, I can try to explain. Most fair-minded people would agree that BC's last season was an anomaly due to the extraordinary high number of KEY losses. You can easily make the case that the 3 best players in that team (at least on paper) were Drew, Cobb, and Swops (not necessarily in that order) and precisely those three became unavailable, two of them before the B1G season started, the third one midway through the B1G campaign (former walkon Hearns obviously deserves consideration to be among the top 3, but still losing 3 of the top 4 in a basketball team is a major blow).
Essentially the team lost 60% of its starters (with a big drop-off between them and their replacements).
Yet, before Swops went down, the team was just one game under .500 in a VERY STRONG B1G (four B1G finished in the TOP TEN nationally, one more among the top 20, and four more won 8-9 B1G games and had strong seasons...that is a VERY STRONG league)....one game under .500 under such circumstances seems plain miraculous.
Yet, JP took advantage of that extraordinarily anomalous (injury-riddled) season to make the coaching change.
It would have been a lot more controversial to make a coaching change after yet another BC-typical 7-8 B1G win plus NIT season, because many would have thought that that should be enough for NU (even if the coach had been the same for decades). Yet others could reasonably argue that BC had reached a ceiling that he would never exceed (baring some extraordinarily favorable alignment of stars), and NU could do better. That could be a strong argument also, but that was what JP wanted to avoid, because he knew he would look bad among many reasonable people (even outside the NU community) if he made that argument after a BC-typical season (and his risk of hiring a new coach that wouldn't meet those modest standards of sucess would be higher, which may still happen).
So, JP took the easy way out, and took advantage of an anomaly to make the change the "cheap way". Gutless? Yes, arguably so.
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
Styre,
You make good comments.
I believe that an AD, or any manager, should be able to pick his/her own team. Carmody was not and was never going to be a Phillips pick.
So he should have cut him loose versus trying to play politics. Not doing so opened the door to more criticism. Really, what was gained when the world knew that NU was just waiting for justification to fire Carmody?
Phillips had every right to make a change and hire his guy. But those last two years were painful.
Styre,
You make good comments.
I believe that an AD, or any manager, should be able to pick his/her own team. Carmody was not and was never going to be a Phillips pick.
So he should have cut him loose versus trying to play politics. Not doing so opened the door to more criticism. Really, what was gained when the world knew that NU was just waiting for justification to fire Carmody?
Phillips had every right to make a change and hire his guy. But those last two years were painful.
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
JP offers BC a '3-year extension' with a very low buyout (which may also have been performance-dependent)...Essentially that would have allowed him to keep BC for one extra season (to the end of his last contract), with the possibility of making a coaching change if needed at season's end at very low cost to NU...of course if performance did warrant it, he could have indeed kept BC longer, and even sign yet another contract.
The point is that the "only-one-year-left" is BS, and everyone should have seen it that way.
P.S. Some might say that the above would have been "cheating" the recruits...fact is, nearly all programs can buy out the current coaches contract, usually for a very reasonable amount, so every recruit faces the risk of a coaching change, wherever he goes...plus coaches might quit themselves to take other jobs (and can die also!)...of course, transfers do exist (with/without coaching changes).
Well, that was an extremely LAME excuse that JP shouldn't have gotten away with....Extremely easy counter-argument?
JP offers BC a '3-year extension' with a very low buyout (which may also have been performance-dependent)...Essentially that would have allowed him to keep BC for one extra season (to the end of his last contract), with the possibility of making a coaching change if needed at season's end at very low cost to NU...of course if performance did warrant it, he could have indeed kept BC longer, and even sign yet another contract.
The point is that the "only-one-year-left" is BS, and everyone should have seen it that way.
P.S. Some might say that the above would have been "cheating" the recruits...fact is, nearly all programs can buy out the current coaches contract, usually for a very reasonable amount, so every recruit faces the risk of a coaching change, wherever he goes...plus coaches might quit themselves to take other jobs (and can die also!)...of course, transfers do exist (with/without coaching changes).
Re: JP won't take that chance!!
Agreed with this.
Was very clear that BC and Phillips would fit together like oil and water. One is interested in the branding of Northwestern and one has some amount less than 0 interest in that. Doesn't make either right or wrong, but their personalities were quite opposed.
I don't know why Phillips didn't make a change earlier. Because we made the NIT?
Carmody is a great basketball coach with no interest in the other work necessary to build a powerful big-time program. I think he's a great get for Holy Cross, a classy guy who gave his best to Northwestern, and I hope he succeeds at Holy Cross.
Besides, he has more postseason wins than any coach in football, men's basketball, or baseball history.
I'm now going to cry.
Agreed with this.
Was very clear that BC and Phillips would fit together like oil and water. One is interested in the branding of Northwestern and one has some amount less than 0 interest in that. Doesn't make either right or wrong, but their personalities were quite opposed.
I don't know why Phillips didn't make a change earlier. Because we made the NIT?
Carmody is a great basketball coach with no interest in the other work necessary to build a powerful big-time program. I think he's a great get for Holy Cross, a classy guy who gave his best to Northwestern, and I hope he succeeds at Holy Cross.
Besides, he has more postseason wins than any coach in football, men's basketball, or baseball history.
I'm now going to cry.
How did a ...
How did a simple post relating some good news about BC turn into this train wreck of a thread? Everyone who reads this board regularly knows where all of us stand on the BC firing. Once again, it is the same people who argued this endlessly two years ago (including me, a pro-BC dude). There is no need to argue it again. There is no need to make snarky comments either way. No one is going to change their existing opinion. In such a case, argument becomes pointless. It is a waste of time.
Let us honor our past, which includes BC, and wish him well at Holy Cross.
Let us support the present, which is CC, and hope for good things in our basketball future.
How did a simple post relating some good news about BC turn into this train wreck of a thread? Everyone who reads this board regularly knows where all of us stand on the BC firing. Once again, it is the same people who argued this endlessly two years ago (including me, a pro-BC dude). There is no need to argue it again. There is no need to make snarky comments either way. No one is going to change their existing opinion. In such a case, argument becomes pointless. It is a waste of time.
Let us honor our past, which includes BC, and wish him well at Holy Cross.
Let us support the present, which is CC, and hope for good things in our basketball future.
Re: How did a ...
It got started with the bad blood and couldn't stomach coaching post, as long as you are asking. The person posting that had to know that it would start all this crap all over again.
It got started with the bad blood and couldn't stomach coaching post, as long as you are asking. The person posting that had to know that it would start all this crap all over again.
Similar threads
