Bye Bye Ben
- Thread starter Purple Pile Driver
- Start date
Thats a perfectly normal reaction. Don't expect a coherent response. There are people around here who worship the guy.
There are also people that despise the man that somehow justify their criticisms with comically stated they also point out the good.
Say what now? I am extremely confident that no one here despises Chris Collins.
And nobody here has ever said anything close to that.
Losing to lowly NU doesn’t help your Resume. Woody was resigning a couple weeks after getting out coached and out played by NU.
Anyone who watched the games against NU and Minny could see a sharp contrast in the teams readiness to play, adjustments or lack of adjustments to what the other team was doing, and overall coaching up the players while the game was going on. In other words the difference between a good coaching staff and a bad one.
The worst thing about your passive aggressive posts is you refuse to even admit the obvious that you don’t like the job he does. You parse words and say I never said those things because they are exact words you use. You imply things and hide behind this all the time.
I could respect your opinion if you just manned up about them and stopped your bs games. Yet you have no problem calling others part of a cult of worship.
When Collins was flailing (the Nance/Young years) I pointed out the things I thought he was doing wrong.
Since the Gragg ultimatum and the Lowery hire, he's been better, clearly.
I really haven't said "I don't like the job he does." I just find the adulation around here excessive, especially when coupled with the bashing of our "untalented" players. And thats from the exact same people saying Collins should be fired - just a few years ago. Other than Gordie, of course. He just blames the players when we lose and credits the head coach when we win. Thats been consistent.
After watching NU basketball for 30 years prior to Coach Collins' arrival, I don't think there are any levels of adulation for what he's accomplished that could be termed excessive.
I’m at 27 years. Count me in the same group. Is he perfect? No. But what he’s done is unprecedented and amazing for NU.
Pretty sure my opinion was always that CCC was a good Coach. I am admittedly not as over the top as Gordie. However, my opinion remains he is an excellent Coach. I do this knowing full well he is not perfect and we very well could have a rough season next year depending on the transfer portal. I am not in a Cult and I do not think every NU Coach is great. In fact, I think some are bad.
I also think every thread on here doesn’t need to devolve to discussion of why CCC didn’t do this or play this best line up more. The team played great yesterday.
Ok, got it. Just wanted to make sure that Johnson's coaching performance against other teams over the last 4 years had nothing to do with him getting fired. Getting owned by CCC caused him to lose his job. If that's the case that actually makes it look like the AD doesn't think much of Collins since getting outcoached by him caused him to fire Johnson.
Gary Barnett Syndrome. Remember how many coaches that got fired after losing to NUFB back then?
I don’t think the loss to NU got Ben fired, but if you watch the game from a tactical perspective, you can see some of the reasons that led to the firing. Pay attention to how NU defended Garcia, then compare that to how UofM defended Martinelli. One defense was more successful, and it wasn’t UofM’s. Look at how each coaching staff drew up plays for their leading scorer and created favorable looks and adjusted offenses to the opposing defense. Both of these players are great scorers on their own, but having a coaching staff that helps you and your teammates gain advantages makes everything easier. In my opinion, Ben was a good recruiter for UofM; he just didn’t have the same tactical level as CCC and his staff. NU is often a very well-coached team, evident in their low turnovers and strong defense.
I'm at 48 years, going back to the days of Tex Winter. No Chores can beat that by a mile.
I have been a basketball gym rat my entire life as both a player and a coach.
The only thing that matters IMO is what we think of Collins today and going forward. He gets all the credit for his staff. It's a very important part of a HC's responsibility. He gets all the credit for putting together a roster of mostly A-10 level and below recruits that were good enough, when healthy, to do a Big Dance 3-peat. Same with developing marginal BIG recruits like Barnhizer, Martinelli, Boo, LIndsey, Law, Pardon, McIntosh and even Leach into difference makers to varying degrees, Same with winning BIG games - at home and on the road - like nobody before him. And he represents the University very well.
He does all this with great passion at what is by far the toughest place in the BIG to achieve success.
Sure hope he can snag the portal transfers he needs to make another run next year, In the meantime, I'll remain very happy he is our coach and hope we don't lose him anytime soon.
GOUNUII
Dude when you’re wandering the college basketball desert for 40 years, you’re going to heap praise on the guy who got you out. You get your people to the promised land (3x) and you become Moses.
Just the way this works.
I get the desire to always shoot higher and for the goal to be winning championships, but let's also be realistic about what the likelihood of this program getting to that level really is. We have it pretty good right now. Winning and getting to the tournament consistently is HARD. As of today, there are only eight teams that have made it to the NCAA tournament the last five years (and one of them is Colgate). It's hard to get there every year. We went from a program that had never made it to making it three times in the last handful of years and making it the last two seasons in a row. It's likely not going to happen this year, but injuries are a big reason for that.
Collins has this program in as good of a spot as ever and has a nice class coming in. They need to land one or two key transfers to compete for another appearance next year, but the job he and his staff have done has been excellent. And his staff has helped the development of several players (Boo and Nick especially), from being lightly recruited players to being legit stars in one of the best conferences in America.
Can the program get better? Of course. But there's no one I trust more to do that than the guy currently in charge. He's proven he can win here and he deserves that opportunity.
It was somewhat tongue in cheek that all schools think they should smoke NU because they historically have.
The losses to us are recent and glaring. His teams have not been great and they were looking at going in another direction but the recent games (losses) against us are pretty glaring and hard to ignore. If they were on the fence, pretty hard to not look at those particular loses
How about a truce where you find the self- discipline to stop calling me out on this board when I am not involved directly?
What we know for sure (that you fail to admit): Collins is a great coach. It’s undeniable and proven. Everyone everywhere says it except for you. And he was very, very good before Lowery. Why do you think IU is after him?
We also know that NU has recruiting disadvantages that far outweigh all other schools except one. Those who recognize this are the ones who can acknowledge he is great.
He, of course, is not infallible. He many cost us a game or so with poor decisions, but it’s hard to tell, and other coaches do as well.
What we know nothing about: whether he is better / worse at making those poor decisions than any other coach.
Since we know he is great, I think we can answer confidently that he costs us games much less frequently than virtually all other coaches (he adds relatively more than he detracts). Feel free to continue to try to find and prove these rare instances where he has trouble, but I personally don’t find that to be a good use of your or anyone’s time.
Isn't it fair to say that great coaches always have winning records in aggregate?
If you want to adjust from, say, a 0.600 winning percentage to account for NU's disadvantages, that ok I guess.
For me that metric for Northwestern is to have a winning record vs the rest of the conference.
If you can find me a great coach who has a losing record overall against conference opponents, that would be cool.
Otherwise, its just Chris Collins.
And that would reflect a lot of bias and make things totally subjective.
When you mostly ignore what I said about NU’s disadvantages, this is what you get. Only one other school has our disadvantage.
You remind me of a guy who called from Texas while I was still working and the Longhorns were in pursuit of Gary Barnett. The guy said what's so great about him? He has a losing record there (35-45). I didn't know how to respond to such a lack of perspective..
I completely agree with you that Collins has become a great coach. I didn't always think he was but I do now.
Having said that, I know for an absolute fact from a source that was very close to him that he had to look at himself in the mirror and change the way he coached because for a time he coached the same way he was taught with a team full of 5 stars at Duke. CCC would be the first to tell you that he had to change his approach because he wasn't going to get four 5 stars in every class.
So, yes he is now a great coach but he had some real flaws in his approach for many years and too his credit he changed. So, to say he was a great coach from day 1 just isn't true. He has developed into a great coach and that is truly a credit to him.
Thanks. I agree that great coaches push themselves and change and it’s not surprising he did that.
I’m curious when this happened. I never said he was great from day 1, but I have pointed out many times that his first teams got progressively better, ultimately leading to the NCAA. That doesn’t smack of “real flaws”. I also pointed out many times how his teams were again progressively getting better after the fall and subsequent seasons after the first NCAA team. Maybe at / near the start of that period he realized he was overconfident for a bit and had to make some coaching (likely more leadership) adjustments. Happy to get more thoughts but also happy to put CCC’s past in the past.
Agree about putting his past in the past. I’ll just say this was someone who worked very closely with him for several years at the start of his tenure at NU and said CCC was very raw at developing talent because he never really had to. Said he had to really readjust and make that the main thing he and his staff had to lean on if they were going to have success.
I would say they have become really good at it.
I think you’re being intellectually dishonest. I think when you ended up being wrong about needing to get rid of Collins, unlike the other posters who celebrated his success and happily jumped on board, you struggled with being wrong and now find yourself unwilling to admit Collins is doing a great job.
PWB, people are wrong on these boards all the time! Let it go and just enjoy what’s happening with Collins and the program.
I know this is sort of an urban legend - that I'm the bad guy, that I was adamant that Collins needed to be fired, but it just isn't true.
By the end of that 2021-22 bust, there were people carrying pitchforks to burn Collins' house to the ground. I was not one of them. In fact, after Gragg gave his bs public ultimatum, I was probably the first person to say NU had a shot at a decent year, given my expectations that Nicholson and Barnhizer would help the team. I was one of the very few to back the team - sentiment was nearly universally negative.
Finally somebody with historical perspective.
Collins has been a good recruiter from day 1. That has been his advantage. Pretty good at identifying talent.
There is NO DOUBT that Gragg's ultimatum made him look seriously at his flaws.
The BS stretch 5 NBA approach.
The useless pursuit of "5 stars."
The "we're a fast tempo team" approach.
The "I don't need a rim protector" approach.
He assessed how and why his program was heading the wrong direction.
He hired Chris Lowery to upgrade the defense.
At some point he decided to focus his recruiting on team-first, gritty players. Not sure if Lowery gets any credit there. Maybe.
He stopped with the "I have 10 good players" approach to managing his lineups. He reduced the rotation. I think Lowery, a veteran assistant, gets some credit. Collins, all of a sudden, started saying "You play your best players." This was music to my ears and a significant mindset change.
So, I am open to the possibility that Collins can be regarded as a great coach. The bar for me is a .500 record in the Big Ten.
Because we have academic restrictions - otherwise the bar is 0.600 or even higher.
Over the last 4 seasons, we're 7-13, 12-8, 12-8, 7-13.
Thats getting there.
Just some questions about your claims.
Was Pardon considered a stretch 5? Was Young considered a stretch 5? Was Nicholson recruited prior to the ultimatum?
Outside of players with obvious NU ties, what “5 stars” pursue? Who was recruited prior to the ultimatum and was their impact on the last 3 teams? Who has been recruiting since and what has been their impact on the last 3 teams?
What are the possessions per game stats like year to year for Collins to back this up?
Was Pardon not an effective rim protector? Who do you think was a better post defender Nance or Young? One had the height to alter shots and neither had the mass.
If Lowery gets credit for recruiting gritty players, what recruiting classes has been a part of? Who were the key culture setters on the last 3 teams?
I do agree with Lowery was hired to emphasize defense.
How deep was the rotation during the 2016-2017 season? Only 8 players played more than 10 minutes a game.
I have stated it multiple times the shift happened well before the ultimatum. It just took time to bear fruit. The all-state year was the wake up call from my viewpoint. Success takes time.
Something about posting the first winning big ten season at a program in close to 50 years along with the only 3 NCAA tournaments screams greatness to me. One of those tournaments was before all these supposed changes. To me it was gradual improvement of a good-very good coach into a great one.
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Don't forget...beating the #1 rated team in country twice is kinda cool or "great"
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