Bye Bye Ben

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Just some questions about your claims.

Was Pardon considered a stretch 5? Was Young considered a stretch 5? Was Nicholson recruited prior to the ultimatum?

Outside of players with obvious NU ties, what “5 stars” pursue? Who was recruited prior to the ultimatum and was their impact on the last 3 teams? Who has been recruiting since and what has been their impact on the last 3 teams?

What are the possessions per game stats like year to year for Collins to back this up?

Was Pardon not an effective rim protector? Who do you think was a better post defender Nance or Young? One had the height to alter shots and neither had the mass.

If Lowery gets credit for recruiting gritty players, what recruiting classes has been a part of? Who were the key culture setters on the last 3 teams?

I do agree with Lowery was hired to emphasize defense.

How deep was the rotation during the 2016-2017 season? Only 8 players played more than 10 minutes a game.

I have stated it multiple times the shift happened well before the ultimatum. It just took time to bear fruit. The all-state year was the wake up call from my viewpoint. Success takes time.

Something about posting the first winning big ten season at a program in close to 50 years along with the only 3 NCAA tournaments screams greatness to me. One of those tournaments was before all these supposed changes. To me it was gradual improvement of a good-very good coach into a great one.

Do you really think I am going to go thru your questions and answer them?
If you want to counter my statements, counter my statements. Provide your own facts, if you have any.

My major complaints about Chris Collins were public on this message board.
Collins addressed those issues, almost one for one, after the Gragg ultimatum and the Lowery hire.
I have acknowledged that in the past.
And his teams started playing better.

During the dark days, I even suggested that - if NU felt compelled to fire Collins - they should think about hiring Bruce Weber on an interim basis. I had no idea that Chris Lowery was the man behind Weber's success. I just liked Weber's teams at Kansas State.

I've gotten a lot of things right about Collins and NU basketball, but the Weber/Lowery one is the accident I'm probably most proud of.
And lets face it, the Lowery hire likely saved Collins' job at Northwestern.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Do you really think I am going to go thru your questions and answer them?
If you want to counter my statements, counter my statements. Provide your own facts, if you have any.

My major complaints about Chris Collins were public on this message board.
Collins addressed those issues, almost one for one, after the Gragg ultimatum and the Lowery hire.
I have acknowledged that in the past.
And his teams started playing better.

During the dark days, I even suggested that - if NU felt compelled to fire Collins - they should think about hiring Bruce Weber on an interim basis. I had no idea that Chris Lowery was the man behind Weber's success. I just liked Weber's teams at Kansas State.

I've gotten a lot of things right about Collins and NU basketball, but the Weber/Lowery one is the accident I'm probably most proud of.
And let’s face it, the Lowery hire likely saved Collins' job at Northwestern.

Fine without looking up stats….

Pardon and Young were not stretch 5’s so myth #1 busted.

The only 5 stars recruited that I can recall has family ties to NU. Obviously have to shake the tree on those. I may be wrong here, there may be others.

Martinelli and older were recruited pre ultimatum and Clayton/Barkley/Strauss and younger were recruited after. Banrhizer, Buie, Audige, Martinelli, Matt, and Ty were the culture setters.

Not looking the possessions thing up. I wouldn’t be shocked if tempo slowed. I also wouldn’t be shocked if it stayed similar to the years around the 1st tournament.

Pardon was a very effective rim protector. Nance was a better post defender than Young while neither was great at it Nance had the height and length to recover at times.

The rotation the first tournament year ran about 8-9 players deep.

You didn’t provide any facts to support any of the statements I questioned. The Lowry hire is not what saved Collins job. It is every decision leading up to the epic turnaround season that made it possible. It is a bunch of little things that added up. That is how success and progress happens.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Fine without looking up stats….

Pardon and Young were not stretch 5’s so myth #1 busted.

The only 5 stars recruited that I can recall has family ties to NU. Obviously have to shake the tree on those. I may be wrong here, there may be others.

Martinelli and older were recruited pre ultimatum and Clayton/Barkley/Strauss and younger were recruited after. Banrhizer, Buie, Audige, Martinelli, Matt, and Ty were the culture setters.

Not looking the possessions thing up. I wouldn’t be shocked if tempo slowed. I also wouldn’t be shocked if it stayed similar to the years around the 1st tournament.

Pardon was a very effective rim protector. Nance was a better post defender than Young while neither was great at it Nance had the height and length to recover at times.

The rotation the first tournament year ran about 8-9 players deep.

You didn’t provide any facts to support any of the statements I questioned. The Lowry hire is not what saved Collins job. It is every decision leading up to the epic turnaround season that made it possible. It is a bunch of little things that added up. That is how success and progress happens.

Is there anything more subjective than the Lowrey hire likely saved CCC’s job? Easy to argue something that can’t be proved. I do know that the heralded class of Kopp, RY, Pete weren’t defensive stalwarts. We played defense before Lowrey showed up too and that was documented in a previous post. It sounds good in theory because the improvement coincided with Lowrey showing up, but we also didn’t have the clear defensive liabilities that we previously had. Lowrey is a fine defensive Coach and he makes a difference, but it was a combination of Lowrey, the other Assistant Coaches, the Players, and equally important CCC saving CCC’s job.

 

[IGNORE2]

How about a truce where you find the self- discipline to stop calling me out on this board when I am not involved directly?

What we know for sure (that you fail to admit): Collins is a great coach. It’s undeniable and proven. Everyone everywhere says it except for you. And he was very, very good before Lowery. Why do you think IU is after him?

We also know that NU has recruiting disadvantages that far outweigh all other schools except one. Those who recognize this are the ones who can acknowledge he is great.

He, of course, is not infallible. He many cost us a game or so with poor decisions, but it’s hard to tell, and other coaches do as well.

What we know nothing about: whether he is better / worse at making those poor decisions than any other coach.

Since we know he is great, I think we can answer confidently that he costs us games much less frequently than virtually all other coaches (he adds relatively more than he detracts). Feel free to continue to try to find and prove these rare instances where he has trouble, but I personally don’t find that to be a good use of your or anyone’s time.

You say truce and then follow with all your classic lines…. Do you know what truce means? Btw, does not mean I’ll take one last shot then you shut up.

 

[IGNORE2]

I know this is sort of an urban legend - that I'm the bad guy, that I was adamant that Collins needed to be fired, but it just isn't true.
By the end of that 2021-22 bust, there were people carrying pitchforks to burn Collins' house to the ground. I was not one of them. In fact, after Gragg gave his bs public ultimatum, I was probably the first person to say NU had a shot at a decent year, given my expectations that Nicholson and Barnhizer would help the team. I was one of the very few to back the team - sentiment was nearly universally negative.

So true. I was one, maybe the loudest, saying it was time for him to go. I celebrate the gagg public lashing and believe it led to changes that made ccc a really good coach.

He’s far from perfect, a really good fit at NU and I’d hate to see him go. I won’t say I was wrong, simply that I didn’t not consider someone could so drastically change their stripes. Ccc did that and it was the better solution and the gagg event was a critical component.

 

[IGNORE2]

I know this is sort of an urban legend - that I'm the bad guy, that I was adamant that Collins needed to be fired, but it just isn't true.
By the end of that 2021-22 bust, there were people carrying pitchforks to burn Collins' house to the ground. I was not one of them. In fact, after Gragg gave his bs public ultimatum, I was probably the first person to say NU had a shot at a decent year, given my expectations that Nicholson and Barnhizer would help the team. I was one of the very few to back the team - sentiment was nearly universally negative.

I seem to recall pwb and I were the first ones to be high on MN, BB and Mart. Though I admittedly didn’t think much of Boo for the first two years. I was wrong on that one. By a lot.

 

[No Chores]

I'm at 48 years, going back to the days of Tex Winter. No Chores can beat that by a mile.

I have been a basketball gym rat my entire life as both a player and a coach.

The only thing that matters IMO is what we think of Collins today and going forward. He gets all the credit for his staff. It's a very important part of a HC's responsibility. He gets all the credit for putting together a roster of mostly A-10 level and below recruits that were good enough, when healthy, to do a Big Dance 3-peat. Same with developing marginal BIG recruits like Barnhizer, Martinelli, Boo, LIndsey, Law, Pardon, McIntosh and even Leach into difference makers to varying degrees, Same with winning BIG games - at home and on the road - like nobody before him. And he represents the University very well.

He does all this with great passion at what is by far the toughest place in the BIG to achieve success.

Sure hope he can snag the portal transfers he needs to make another run next year, In the meantime, I'll remain very happy he is our coach and hope we don't lose him anytime soon.

GOUNUII

Absolutely correct in all respects! Why some people don't understand this is totally bewildering to me.

 

[phatcat]

Well he beat him a couple times down the stretch. I am sure that did not help

And now Fran bites the dust. CCC is the grim reaper

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Pardon and Young were not stretch 5’s so myth #1 busted.

This is why it is pointless to talk to you.
If you think Collins didn't prefer playing with a stretch 5 (and preferably a stretch 4) you are goofy.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

The only 5 stars recruited that I can recall has family ties to NU.

Again, you deliberately misrepresent what I said.

Chasing "5 stars" means recruiting players with a lot of recruiting "stars" that we weren't going to get and aren't a fit for Northwestern.

I know that meaning is obvious - and it makes your intellectual dishonesty all the more apparent.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Martinelli and older were recruited pre ultimatum

This is false.

Martinelli was NOT recruited by Chris Collins in the normal recruiting cycle. He got no real offers and committed to Elon.
This is despite the fact that Collins had recruited Nick's brother Dom, who transferred after a year or two at NU.
So Collins knew the family - they lived in the same area - and we did not recruit Nick.
Like others, including Justin Mullins, Nick exploded as a senior, but had already committed to Elon - or in Mullins' case, Denver.
Martinelli was widely recognized as a recruiting steal for Elon.
“I really wanted to do my best to make an impact on that program and reach that goal,” Martinelli said of reaching the NCAA Tournament at Elon.

Gragg issued the ultimatum om 3/14/2022.
The Elon head coach left to go be an assistant at Duke.
Martinelli was thus able to re-open his recruiting and did so on 4/21/2022.
Most good D1 programs had already recruited their classes, so they had no room for Nick Martinelli.
Collins only had Luke Hunger in his recruiting class and actually needed players.
Martinelli got one offer from a Power 5 school. It was Northwestern He took the offer.

This is, for the most part, luck.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Again, you deliberately misrepresent what I said.

Chasing "5 stars" means recruiting players with a lot of recruiting "stars" that we weren't going to get and aren't a fit for Northwestern.

I know that meaning is obvious - and it makes your intellectual dishonesty all the more apparent.

Maybe next time say “chasing top rated recruits” or “chasing 4-5 star players”.

Your comment is in obvious reference to Christie and Baldwin. If CCC had not recruited them, this fan base would have crucified him.

You always defend yourself saying “ I didn’t say that” and now when it’s proven you did say that, you resort to “I didn’t mean that”. I guess it depends on which side of the argument you are on.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

This is why it is pointless to talk to you.
If you think Collins didn't prefer playing with a stretch 5 (and preferably a stretch 4) you are goofy.

Why would someone who prefers stretch 5’s recruit centers who don’t shoot 3’s such as Pardon, Benson, Coleman-Jones, Preston, Young, and Nicholson? I think Collins prefers to play the best players he can.

Again, you deliberately misrepresent what I said.

Chasing "5 stars" means recruiting players with a lot of recruiting "stars" that we weren't going to get and aren't a fit for Northwestern.

I know that meaning is obvious - and it makes your intellectual dishonesty all the more apparent.

There is no misrepresentation to me stating the only 5 stars he recruited that I’m aware of when you say “Chasing 5 stars”. What am I supposed to think when you make that statement? If you meant chasing stars you should have said chasing stars not 5 stars. Collins recruits the best players he can and no college coach that I know of recruits off of star ratings. Buie and Barnhizer were no 5 stars.

This is false.

Martinelli was NOT recruited by Chris Collins in the normal recruiting cycle. He got no real offers and committed to Elon.
This is despite the fact that Collins had recruited Nick's brother Dom, who transferred after a year or two at NU.
So Collins knew the family - they lived in the same area - and we did not recruit Nick.
Like others, including Justin Mullins, Nick exploded as a senior, but had already committed to Elon - or in Mullins' case, Denver.
Martinelli was widely recognized as a recruiting steal for Elon.
“I really wanted to do my best to make an impact on that program and reach that goal,” Martinelli said of reaching the NCAA Tournament at Elon.

Gragg issued the ultimatum om 3/14/2022.
The Elon head coach left to go be an assistant at Duke.
Martinelli was thus able to re-open his recruiting and did so on 4/21/2022.
Most good D1 programs had already recruited their classes, so they had no room for Nick Martinelli.
Collins only had Luke Hunger in his recruiting class and actually needed players.
Martinelli got one offer from a Power 5 school. It was Northwestern He took the offer.

This is, for the most part, luck.

Nick committed to NU 4/23. Do you really think the staff built a relationship with and got Martinelli to commit in 2 days? You don’t think there was a chance they built and kept the relationship with Nick way earlier?

Either way the ultimatum had no effect on that class. Got it. Better lucky than good I guess. I love when the staff lucks into getting the big ten leading scorer.

Funny how when I pull facts or address literally what you type I’m intellectually dishonest or I’m goofy. Just admit you’re wrong, it’s okay to be wrong.

 

[IGNORE2]

Why would someone who prefers stretch 5’s recruit centers who don’t shoot 3’s such as Pardon, Benson, Coleman-Jones, Preston, Young, and Nicholson? I think Collins prefers to play the best players he can.

There is no misrepresentation to me stating the only 5 stars he recruited that I’m aware of when you say “Chasing 5 stars”. What am I supposed to think when you make that statement? If you meant chasing stars you should have said chasing stars not 5 stars. Collins recruits the best players he can and no college coach that I know of recruits off of star ratings. Buie and Barnhizer were no 5 stars.

Nick committed to NU 4/23. Do you really think the staff built a relationship with and got Martinelli to commit in 2 days? You don’t think there was a chance they built and kept the relationship with Nick way earlier?

Either way the ultimatum had no effect on that class. Got it. Better lucky than good I guess. I love when the staff lucks into getting the big ten leading scorer.

Funny how when I pull facts or address literally what you type I’m intellectually dishonest or I’m goofy. Just admit you’re wrong, it’s okay to be wrong.

You are simply wrong about Mart. Of course ccc knew the family because of Dom. But unless you are accusing ccc of recruiting violations, mart was off the table signed to Elon. After gagg event, mart was able to reopen recruiting and could be contacted by coaching staffs. This is all fact - nothing to debate - again unless you think ccc illegally communicated with a committed Mart?

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

You are simply wrong about Mart. Of course ccc knew the family because of Dom. But unless you are accusing ccc of recruiting violations, mart was off the table signed to Elon. After gagg event, mart was able to reopen recruiting and could be contacted by coaching staffs. This is all fact - nothing to debate - again unless you think ccc illegally communicated with a committed Mart?

It’s not illegal to talk to a commit……