Canyon Barry visit?
- Thread starter CoralSpringsCat
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You wouldn't take Barry until Moore declined. Frankly, 2016-17 is not *the year*.
Don't sell Barry short. ESPN lists him as the #3 transfer available in the country (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14390188/college-basketball-transfer-list). It's also worth noting that Barry is already 22 years old and will be 23 next January. He has size at 6'6", is mature and can definitely score. Considering that our SG Demps led the team in scoring each of the past two seasons, Barry would be an ideal one-year plug in.
If our guys continue to develop and improve, we could have a strong starting lineup with BMac, Barry, Law, Falzon and Pardon. Plus, I really like Lindsey as a backup 2 or 3 (but am not yet convinced he can be "the guy" as our starting SG). The backup forward situation also seems ample with Ivanauskus, Lumpkin, Skelly and Taphorn. We don't yet know what Benson will offer as a backup center, but I fully expect that he will be a better backup center than we are usually accustomed to. Plus, I really like Gavin Skelly--and feel that he is a great backup option at both the 4 and the 5 spot. And I am hopeful that Isiah Brown will make an impact and prove to be a dependable backup at PG.
Like you, I am on record saying that 2017-18 is the year. With Olah and Demps leaving, I was not as optimistic about next season... However, adding a mature and capable scorer in Barry at SG makes me much more optimistic that 2016-17 could indeed be the year.
Going back to IdahoAlum's question: It's a tough call for Collins. Do you try to pick up a guy that fills a specific need and can allow you to win now--especially when you don't want to miss the post-season each of your first 4 seasons and risk that the recruiting magic may start to fade? Or do you go for a longer-term play picking up a top PG for the future despite the fact that you already have another short PG in the same class--and the "star" of the current team is only a junior PG? Picking up Barry now might actually pay higher dividends in the long run for recruiting by enabling the program to move to the next level with a more immediate impact on winning and post-season aspirations this coming season.
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Completely agree. Moore is the missing piece for the 2018 Tournament. NU is a 7 seed with him.
I'm certainly not as certain as you are; however, I just think a four-year player who comes with Moore's pedigree is more valuable than a one year player. This is no disrespect to Barry, who sounds like he has high-volume scoring potential anywhere.
In general, I'm not comfortable relying on grad transfers. Swop and JVZ and the Jeremiah the Ivy League kid were nice, but a one-year guy can't really bring more upside to a program than a four year guy. If they could, they'd be all over championship rosters, and they're not.
If I am correct, the "Way to do it" involves the sacrifice of a couple of guys who have been faithful members of the program. Something like (and I'm only making this up) convincing Taphorn to retire due to foot trouble and not inviting back a person (I forget who) for their 5th year.
This would be a pretty aggressive treatment of guys who committed to the program and I wouldn't want it to become NU's mode of operation for the long haul but, I think other programs play hardball like this all the time and if NU really wants to become an elite program that can pick and choose between elite players, this may be a hump we have to get over. New coaches often clean house when they arrive and Collins did some of that but this may be the second wave. He won't be a new coach much longer.
I hope when Collins came in he was very careful with his promises to the guys who stayed and at the end of the season to the guys who might get that fifth year. It is a competition and some guys are getting beaten out of their position by guys not yet on the team.
This kind of roster management is standard operating procedure throughout P5 college athletics.
[QUOTE="Deeringfish, post: 293265, member: 808"and not inviting back a person (I forget who) for their 5th year.[/QUOTE]
2015/16 Team Tri-Captain Sanjay Lumpkin, that's who......
2015/16 Team Tri-Captain Sanjay Lumpkin, that's who......
While an experienced, respected "glue guy" is nice to have around... Give me the best basketball player in the state of Illinois who happens to fit a desperate need all day.
But, that's not really the choice being proposed, is it? People seem to feel that there is one scholarship available otherwise, so the question is do you run off your co-captain 5th year senior for 1 year of a 5th year transfer who is leaving a College of Charleston team that he wasn't able to elevate past 8-10 in the CAA? If so, that's some really stupid program management right there. I suppose that's why willy is so enthusiastic about it, but I doubt it's the kind of thing CCC is excited about.
Crossed up my threads with the Moore discussion. Apologies there.
Though I could still see how bringing in someone who is more of a scorer would be more beneficial to the team (especially because I don't think there's much Lumpkin does that Law couldn't do, at least in terms of ability on the court... experience and leadership are different).
Now I have to interject for a second... look at Canyon Barry's official CofC profile...
DOES HE REALLY SHOOT HIS FREE THROWS UNDERHANDED LIKE HIS DAD?!?!?!?!?!? IF SO, WE MUST HAVE HIM!!!
EDIT: YES HE DOES!!!
DOES HE REALLY SHOOT HIS FREE THROWS UNDERHANDED LIKE HIS DAD?!?!?!?!?!? IF SO, WE MUST HAVE HIM!!!
EDIT: YES HE DOES!!!
Talk about setting Canyon Barry up for failure. Boot the co-captain for a guy who will be there one year? That's bad management of team chemistry. Do it for a guy who isn't a program-changing talent? That's idiotic. There are ways Canyon Barry could help the team given the right circumstances, but the ones you outline are them.
Can we stop using the term "co-captain" like it was something all that special? It was actually "tri-captain" as there were three of them last year in Lumpkin, Demps, and Olah. That's 25% of the roster and might well have instead been called "guys who are on scholarship and been here for more than three years."
And yes, most P5 programs would bring in the guy who's a much better player. That's how you win more games. Not saying that it's necessarily the "right" thing to do, just that Collins wouldn't be operating outside of that norm if he decided to do so.
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Ask the guys on the team how they feel about being co-captain and whether it's anything special. Ask the guys who get elected this year if it's anything special. So, no we can't stop using the term like it was something special.
And, actually, most P5 programs wouldn't run off that guy without recognizing him at Senior Day for a guy like Canyon Barry, who is a nice player but not a program changer as a 1-year transfer. They'd manage their situation better than that and I suspect that NU will manage its situation better than that as well. Because if Canyon Barry can't elevate College of Charleston to better than an 8-10 record and quarterfinal conference tourney loss in the CAA, he's not going to be a transformative player at NU.
Each year there is another Moore level player we can go after. Having a good year next year would help with that. Right now we have a ? mark at the 2 spot since Demps is gone and Barry would fill that hole and you still have the scholarship for next year. Also is Brown more of a 1 or 2? If 1 do you want two 1s in one class? If a 2, having a seasoned guy could be a real advantage. So first come may be a good option
I agree that you don't shove Lumpkin off the lifeboat for a guy who isn't a program changer as you aptly termed it.
Let's talk about Brown for a minute. If we're hot after Moore, who presumably would play with McIntosh, what does that say about Brown? It says the staff thinks that he's not ready to start from day one. I think his tape says exactly that, too. He is worth the scholarship, but his shot selection, defensive ability, and lower shooting form may mean a lot of coaching is required.
You have your opinion, I have mine. All's fine and well (even if I think you're way off base).
I think it says "try to get as many good players as possible," especially when next year's back court looks like McIntosh then a WHOLE lot of question marks -- I don't think Lindsey is REALLY a 2 and didn't see much out of Ash. Then you're just left with Brown, who hasn't even set foot on campus yet.
I don't think Sanjay's going anywhere. I'd guess Tap's scholarship would be the one potentially in play. I'd imagine the conversation regarding his returning for a 5th year had certain caveats to include other potential recruits, health status, etc. Also, the likelihood of landing both Moore and Barry is pretty slim...
Bringing in Moore also gives the staff the option to redshirt Brown. To me, he seems like a player that could be very helpful down the road, but not right off the bat. Saving a year of eligibility may be the way to go, especially if CC ends up bringing Moore or Barry on board.
He has had 4 years and would have gotten his degree. that is what is committed to. The question is who will do more for the program? A 5th year Barry or a 5th year Sanjay. With the development of Skelly and new players, the greater area of need may be the 2. That said, if such a decision were to be made, he should have been informed sooner.
Moore is a different question altogether.
Does that mean that if were to get Moore, they would be trying to move RS brown and possibly move him out? How many PGs do we want to have?
Moore would start day 1, no doubt. His film is unreal. Extremely fast, quick, gets to the rim. Gonna have to put on some weight to take the banging in the Big Ten, and let's see if he can finish in the lane with legitimate taller shot blockers in the lane. Doesn't look like an excellent shooter yet (judging from form), but some extra muscle will help his jump shot. But the kid can blow by anyone with his quickness and is an excellent passer when he gets into the lane.
I'm not sold on Brown yet, we'll see. Just hard to tell with no talent around him.
I'm not sold on Brown yet, we'll see. Just hard to tell with no talent around him.
Cool. Just wondering which part you think I'm off base about. That Canyon Barry isn't a program-changer as a 1-year transfer? Or that being named tri-captain is a special thing to players?
Yes.
While not a "program-changer," I think Barry would make the 2016 NU basketball team better if he were to take Lumpkin's place. I also think designating "tri-captains" takes a lot away from the honor, seeing as a quarter of the roster was designated as such (and it was basically just all the veterans on the roster).
Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree. 5th year senior transfers are like back-up quarterbacks.
I think your context needs to widen. There are other guys on the roster who could offer what Lumpkin does (energy, defense, and rebounding) but not a lot of guys who can offer what Barry does (scoring). In my mind, guys like Skelly or Law could contribute about as well as Lumpkin on defense while contributing more on offense.
Easy decision (and I like Lump and his grit - off the bench)
Depth chart:
G: Mac..............Lindsey, Ash, Law..................Brown
F: Falzon, Law, RI, Skelly, Lump, Taphorn
Lump should be the third F off the bench or situational use. Barry could start Day 1, absent an amazing development in Lindsey or Ash, amazing recovery and lack of need at the 3 with Law or an amazing true frosh in Brown.
So, if I'm CCC and can trade a starting SG for an 8th or 9th man - hell yes. Whether it is the right thing to do? Great debate. For no particular known fact outside what we saw on the Court, most here felt it was okay related to Vassar. And for Kale. And Aaron. And so on. Here, Lump is popular, has been a co-capt and is being discussed in the future, not the past. And these are intriguing discussions - until you all like to attack the poster. Maybe we will be lucky enough to find out what CCC thinks. If we land another 2016 player - something has to give.
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Brown is an unheralded true frosh that hasn't had to play true PG. Mac is a combo guard that has excelled as our PG - but has no PG to back him up. Ash is not a true PG. I think the intent is Brown fills that role. If Brown walked in and started next to Mac over Ash and Lindsey and Law, whew!
Moore has program changer potential - regardless of whether he starts in 2016. But 2016 isn't the year, absent a miracle. 2017 can be. Moore and Mac (with PG and SG roles dropped in favor of PG and CG) would still need breaks (plus injuries happen) - so Brown is still a potential heavy minute player. Hopefully, so are Ash and Lindsey. And in 2018, someone has to start next to Moore - or in place if Moore is in the NBA. Maybe that is Brown. I think Brown has little to do with recruiting Moore and Barry.
Tap is a true senior - 4 year scholarship
Only way it becomes free is by medical retirement.Are you one of those that has called me out a few times, spoke to my credibility? Hmmmm, and you don't know our own team? Hmmmm. Not a biggie, people make mistakes. Get it?
Moore and Brown would mean 2 PGS and a combo guard until Mac graduates and Moore goes pro. I believe you would recruit another for 2018 class, but skip one in 2017. Which is fine - we need another big and another SG.
Yeah, he was only the Player of the Year in the State of Washington, ahead of a couple of highly ranked 4* players......
