Still too early in the season to be sure, but I've seen nothing from our upcoming Big Ten opponents that indicates they will be a much tougher opponent than Stanford or Duke.
Clayton
- Thread starter DocCatsFan
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Still too early in the season to be sure, but I've seen nothing from our upcoming Big Ten opponents that indicates they will be a much tougher opponent than Stanford or Duke.
Agreed. In fact, on most of the read options when he begins to roll, its as if he is treading water running to the sideline waiting to pitch to jackson. Both aren't particularly well positioned to make plays with an aggressive D in pursuit. They need to fine tune that style of play signficantly before conference play, because i'm not sure the "roll" out buys anything other than letting the D gain pursuit on both behind the LOS.
Took the bait I see. You know he's just a troll, correct? My suggestion would be not to dignify his nonsense with a response.
Well let's just review ZO's last start against an Illinois team that fielded a D unit not nearly as good as the one CT faced yesterday. ZO was terrible. ZO only played QB about 7 years longer than CT. In the defensive backfield for Duke were two All-ACC D-backs, one of whom is also an All-American. And Cash showed me with his play yesterday that he most certainly deserves that rating and that he will also be a certain success in the NFL.
To those who think CT does not have real speed, review again his scamper against Stanford and please tell me how many LBs and DBs were closing the gap after he blew past everyone? CT has not lost this team any game. He also is one of the best RS frosh QBs that I have ever seen. But what do I know about judging talent. I was stupid enough to proclaim Siemian as someone with an NFL-arm three years ago after he made some sensational throws in the Michigan game. ZO and Alviti do not have as much talent as CT, not close at all. Does anyone reading these boards really think that Fitz and McCall, two guys with for more experience at judging talent, would make a choice that puts this team at a disadvantage?
Before he leaves NU, CT will be an All-BT first team QB. I think he will also rate All-American Honorable Mention at a minimum. And if I were McCall or Fitz I would call at least 35 passing plays against Ball State. CT is the real deal.
I agree that thorson did actually appear clueless. Im really not sure what game people were watching that cant admit that. It was very obvious that we would have to have more turnovers by the defense to get the o in fg position.
His interceptions were bad. I see him struggling because unlike all the other QBs we have had, he has not been studying college defenses for years and getting the coaching needed. The misfire to Shuler is a prime example of where this guy is in his development. He needed three yards for the first down, he was rolling right and there was a run-lane opening that would give him a chance for the first down. At the same time, Shuler had just broken free and had at least three steps on his nearest defender. First of all, the run was the higher percentage play but he must have saw that SHuler had clearly beat his man. What was needed was a lob throw five yards ahead of Shuler that Shuler could run under and catch. What he did was fire a strike that hit the back of the second defender five yards behind. It appears that he did not plant his foot correctly so he did not get the distance on the throw. That is very teachable and something that McCall needs to fix soon. I noticed that under duress, CT tends to throw short bullet shots even when the receiver is wide open. A few times, he threw it to a spot and the receiver was not there because the receiver read the coverage differently (whether that is the receivers fault or his, I don't know). I think he is the equivalent of Siemian when he was a redshirt freshman (although at that time our wide receivers were good). It takes a lot of time to understand the defense and unfortunately he will not have it. We have not had a QB that has struggled from lack of knowledge since Basanez as a freshman and for fans it can be frustrating. But, yes you can see the talent this guy has and the ability and strength he has on his good throws.
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Yes and No. He will get better but we have some really good defenses on the schedule. Minnesota, Michigan, PSU, and Iowa all have solid to superior defenses. Nebraska has some serious talent that does not seem to have gelled. I think he will be facing four defenses ahead that are as good or better than Duke and Stanford.
The magic season will be earned.
Right, I have only watched roughly 4000 games. That is not much football. How many games have you watched by the way?
Looking at the college QBr rankings CT is right now ranked very close to Wes Lunt and Josh Rosen. Rosen was a five-star recruit who has played the QB position at least 3 years longer than CT. Last year he was the no. 1 rated QB prospect and the no. 2 overall recruit in the nation. The first two weeks he really showed that he has a brilliant college stint ahead of him. Guess what he did this past Saturday against BYU, 11 for 23 with 1 TD and 3 interceptions. His adjusted QBr was 7.3. CT's adjusted QBr for the Duke game was 12.4. I checked the bruinzone footbal board and I did not see one post calling for the benching of Rosen or stating that a QB that tosses 3 interceptions in one game while completing less than 50% of his passes is "clueless".
As for CT after week 3 his total QBr places him number 5 in the BT. Wes Lunt's total QBr is 51.9, Rosen's is 51.5, and CT has a total QBr of 48.8. Statistically an insignificant difference. And CT has faced much better defenses than Rosen or Lunt. Michigan's starting QB has a total QBr of 36.9 against defenses that are inferior overall to those that CT has faced so far. Rudock was the man when he played for Iowa and he was designated as the starter for Michigan by a coach who knows more about assessing QB talent than you or I. So is Harbaugh an idiot who knows nothing about football?
Don't you just love auto correct?
Just for point of comparison, the stud freshman quarterback from UCLA who had amazings stats and won all the accolades and honors for his previous game performances had an even worse day than CT last night against BYU. If I recall correctly he was like 3 for 12 early in the game. Today's news summary for his performance in that game could just as well have been referencing CT:
"With freshman quarterback Josh Rosen struggling, the Bruins ground game picked up the slack ...."
Edited to add: I should have read ManhattaCat's post first before posting. ManhattaCat made the same observation.
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I think he rushed the throw and panicked a little bit. He didn't set himself to make a long downfield pass. Coaching can fix it.
Fitz has coached ZO for four seasons. If Fitz thought ZO gave this team the best chance to win, he'd probably be playing.
Thorsen had a poor performance, but let's put in context. All week long, we were told that Duke has an excellent secondary so it was going to be difficult for CT to put up big numbers. Obviously, NU does not have an abundance of WR options. #1 WR Christian Jones is still working to get back to 100%. #2 WR Dickerson is out with an IR. NU is relying on Austin Carr and true frosh Flynn Nagel to play a lot. Miles Shuler is a speed option, but has he proven to be a consistent receiver? Our second best receiver might be Dan Vitale and does he see the ball consistently? Also, our offensive line is not a finished product on pass protection. So yes, Thorsen has to work on his reads and throws and I think he will improve with game experience, but there are other issues with his weapons and protection that need to step up also.
Did anyone else see that Minny struggled with 10 points v. Kent State? Or Penn St. get handled by Temple's defense. Also, Iowa was tied with Iowa St. in the 4th quarter until Beathard connected on a deep throw on third and long. I think that our defense can win these games if the offense does not lose the turnover battle and our running game performs as they have in Weeks 1-3.
Did anyone else see that Minny struggled with 10 points v. Kent State? Or Penn St. get handled by Temple's defense. Also, Iowa was tied with Iowa St. in the 4th quarter until Beathard connected on a deep throw on third and long. I think that our defense can win these games if the offense does not lose the turnover battle and our running game performs as they have in Weeks 1-3.
Enough to not make asinine comments that CT is one of the best RS frosh QBs ever. But it would make a good thread.
I hear you, and that's why I would have pulled Thorson. It may be that he is our best. In which case, it will be a long year at the QB position if he doesn't improve drastically. But, I would have sat him, let the others show what they could do. We had nothing to lose in my opinion, and I think a little competition hopefully would make him better.
I'm reading too fast most likely but missed that. Who said that CT is one of the best RS Frosh QBs ever? He isn't even the best RS Frosh QB for NU. Len Williams and Brett Basanez and even Gavin Hoffman were doing far better at this point in their early careers. I'm not sure he beats our Mike Kafka or Andrew Brewer in that department.
Look at the kid at UCLA - although I think he may be a true frosh. Timmy Chang? Jared Goff? Anyone heard of Johnny Football? Troy Smith? Peyton Manning? Andrew Luck?
I like Thorson - I think he has all the tools, but he is far, far, far away from being the best RS Frosh QB ever, at least at this point. Thorson may end up being our best QB ever, and he may even develop into a solid QB by the end of this year, but for anyone to say that CT is one of the best RS frosh QBs ever makes my jaw drop. 9/23 with 2 INTs and a 7 QBR says differently.
I think someone pointed out that this is Thorson's 2nd year of starting at QB ever. I was wrong about Mike Kafka in thinking he wouldn't become what he one day developed into, so I remember that and believe Thorson could very well develop along the same trajectory. Kafka similarly played WR for most of his HS career, and I believe also only had one year starting at QB. So, for these guys to develop into their potential and on steep trajectories is to be expected. But, it will take time.
Basanez had an awful freshman year and a mostly forgettable soph year. My memory may be offa little but the last game of that season against Illini our game plan was to not pass at all costs because Baz was struggling so much. At this point in his career, I believe Thorson is ahead of where Baz and Kafka were at similar points. Stay the course. He's going to have growing pains but that comes with the territory.
Actually, he did ok as a freshman. At least his performances were better than Thorson's to date. His sophomore year was a regression, but then we found out that he played with an injury all year. Junior and Senior years were lights out.
I would not have pulled CT mid-game. Whoever plays QB deserves to work with the 1's the week before the game, and not worry about being yanked if he's having a bad half. I think you go with your starter again in Game 4. But if there aren't signs of progress 1/3 of the way through the regular season, you owe it to the rest of the team to go with Plan B in game 5. Unless, of course, you have been blowing smoke all along and the QB competition really wasn't close, and there actually is no Plan B. Which none of us who don't watch practice will ever know.
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His timing and accuracy should b his main focus. When he has thrown some nice passes, half have been dropped.
My question to the board is how come many redshirt freshmen qb have been very successful in college, and why is thorson seemingly learning to crawl? Is it because we dont have the talent at wr?
Granted that he is a redshirt freshman and playing like one but, as a fan, why do other redshirt freshmen qbs play lights out?
I believe you are correct about that. Baz and kafka had forgettable years prior to their upper classman years. Imo Thorson is a tweak ahead with huge upward potential.
His timing and accuracy should b his main focus. When he has thrown some nice passes, half have been dropped.
My question to the board is how come many redshirt freshmen qb have been very successful in college, and why is thorson seemingly learning to crawl? Is it because we dont have the talent at wr?
Granted that he is a redshirt freshman and playing like one but, as a fan, why do other redshirt freshmen qbs play lights out?
He will be fine. I wish he would get with Dan Persa though on the rollout throws. He has consistently under thrown receivers who got behind coverage when he was rolling out and buying time. Most of those weren't long throws for him, 25-35 yards. But they were short and with low arc. It's happened now at least the last two games. Persa was a master at getting those throws off accurately and on the run, and he even helped my kid be a much better passer in those situations with a few minor tweaks to his technique. Hope CT finds the same minor tweaks because some of those plays go for 6 if he gets the throw there.
And Thorson has been pretty much as expected so far -- lots of tools, lots to work on, flashes some exciting skills and some not so exciting decisions.
Check the last page. MannCat might have edited his post, but I captured it in a quote when I commented that he doesn't watch much football. I didn't have a computer heandy and iPads are rough for research, but I'm sure CT isn't even on the radar for one of the best RS frosh QBs ever. I suspect ND, FSU, Bama, FL Auburn and few other pwerhouses have produced a few recently. I suspect several current NFL QBs played as RS Frosh and did ok. But who knows - thus a good thread idea.
Well everyone knows how loyal Fitz is to younger players compared to veterans like ZO (sarcasm alert). I spoke with Miles Shuler at the "meet the players" night and he was really happy that CT was going to start. He said, "he's been a stud since he arrived on campus and everyone is excited that he got the nod at quarterback." Bad game or no, it's great that CT has the support of his receiving corps.
Yeah, pulling quarterbacks when they throw interceptions is a great way to build confidence...just ask Cardale Jones about that. Letting your quarterback grow and learn through adversity is a smart move. I would have only considered pulling CT if the situation dictated it. If the 'Cats were behind by more that 14 points in the second half and the running game was being completely shut down (which it wasn't against Duke), it might have made sense to call on ZO to spark the passing game. Thankfully, that wasn't needed on Saturday.
What we don't want is a QB controversy. If I thought CT was missing a lot of wide open guys maybe I'd say go to Oliver. But I still don't think our WRs are getting a ton of separation. Thorson ran for some big 1st downs late that Oliver likely wouldn't have made. Stick with what's working and avoid undermining CT's development.
If is that close you go with the guy with the most upside. If it isn't, you go for performance. Fact is we have won three games with him and he is leaning what cannot be taught on the practice field.
Winston and Manziel were both redshirt freshmen when the won the Heisman. CT has a long way to go. I think he will be a very good quarterback eventually. I really hope it's this year since our defense is playing so well.
I actually think that is much less of an issue than the receivers. Clayton has shown good mobility and has generally had time to throw. But the bad snaps against SU were an issue for sure.
The three best Ds I have seen at NU are 1970, 1995 and so far this year. All three were ridiculous and all three times, the basis of the O was the running game. This year, CT needs to be more of a game manager. Needs not to make many fatal mistakes. As the season wears on and he gets more in his comfort zone, his play will make a greater impact but for now, more of a game manager. Schnurr was such a game manager at the beginning of 95 and he was not needed to win games. Later in the year and in 96, he was a much more proficient QB. I expect a similar progression with CT with the need now to basically manage games. His time will come when he wins the games.
I agree with this post. Thorson will improve as the season progresses. The staff is basically investing in his development, and it is really true that experience is the best teacher. Is it without risks? Absolutely not. But hopefully The Hammer can minimize the fatal mistakes, and the staff can safely nurture him along until the game slows down for him. He has the physical abilities to be a NFL QB, and the upside for our program is tremendous. Stay the course.
In 1995 we had Bates to stretch the field and Musso for clutch 3rd downs possession catches. I don't see that we have that skill set so far this year.
