Collins BEHIND SCHEDULE with respect MULTIPLE predecessors

[Gladeskat]

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:
Start thinking before writing...Eschmeyer was also in the program (as an active player) during the final two seasons of RB when.the program won 4 B1G games COMBINED...so, you only need a modicum of common sense to figure out that Eschmeyer alone cannot possibly explain the 6-B1G-win season...of course he was a major contributor...but so was in the previous seasons in which the program won 3 or fewer B1G games. How hard is that to understand?

If you SERIOUSLY believe that the final season under BC (where most players expected to be major contributors went down to injury or some other reason, several even before the B1G season started) is representative of the program level you are worthless of any attention....Honest people who know what they are taking about would actually find remarkable that it wasn't until Swop's loss late in the B1G season that that team stopped being competitive....suffice it to say that at some point they were 3-4 in the B1G ... clearly on target for another 8-B1G-win season (despite the major personnel losses).

Wasn't Eschmeyer injured most of the time under RB?

Injuries count for BC (8 wins instead of the actual 4) but they don't count for CC. No wonder you're not taken seriously here.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Originally posted by Gladeskat:

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:
Start thinking before writing...Eschmeyer was also in the program (as an active player) during the final two seasons of RB when.the program won 4 B1G games COMBINED...so, you only need a modicum of common sense to figure out that Eschmeyer alone cannot possibly explain the 6-B1G-win season...of course he was a major contributor...but so was in the previous seasons in which the program won 3 or fewer B1G games. How hard is that to understand?

If you SERIOUSLY believe that the final season under BC (where most players expected to be major contributors went down to injury or some other reason, several even before the B1G season started) is representative of the program level you are worthless of any attention....Honest people who know what they are taking about would actually find remarkable that it wasn't until Swop's loss late in the B1G season that that team stopped being competitive....suffice it to say that at some point they were 3-4 in the B1G ... clearly on target for another 8-B1G-win season (despite the major personnel losses).

Wasn't Eschmeyer injured most of the time under RB?

Injuries count for BC (8 wins instead of the actual 4) but they don't count for CC. No wonder you're not taken seriously here.

For how many years was EE mostly injured according to "your sources"? According to mine, he played 27 to 29 games averaging 26 to 32 MPG and 9 to 22 PPG, during each of his final 4 seasons at NU, which include the last two of RB's regime...I suspect he was reasonably healthy for most/all of those seasons...Do "your sources" say otherwise?

Incidentally, he did not play at all during RB's 5-B1G-win plus NIT season.

 

[Gladeskat]

My sources (nusports) say he was all-Big Ten his last three years, which overlap with the KON era (Wiki). You don't get a sixth year unless you've been injured for the majority of two seasons. Those seasons would have had to have been during the RB era.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Originally posted by Gladeskat:
My sources (nusports) say he was all-Big Ten his last three years, which overlap with the KON era (Wiki). You don't get a sixth year unless you've been injured for the majority of two seasons. Those seasons would have had to have been during the RB era.

So, according to "your sources" EE was part of the last KO team, which went 0-18 in the B1G, right? My sources say he was gone by then, and that -- as stated earlier -- he played (mostly/totally healthy) 4 seasons, including the last 2 of the RB's regime.

 

[Palindrome]

Numerous effective rebuttals to this post already posted.

Something I would like to see, if the data could be pulled, is:
What were the Points Scored vs Points Allowed in BigTen games in their second season for each of the coaches mentioned?

Coach Collins' Year # 2 team suffered more than its share of close losses due to fluky things, calls that went against us, just missing the shot at the end, etc. I'd factor this into the evaluation, along with the W/L record.

 

[Gladeskat]

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:

Originally posted by Gladeskat:
My sources (nusports) say he was all-Big Ten his last three years, which overlap with the KON era (Wiki). You don't get a sixth year unless you've been injured for the majority of two seasons. Those seasons would have had to have been during the RB era.

So, according to "your sources" EE was part of the last KO team, which went 0-18 in the B1G, right? My sources say he was gone by then, and that -- as stated earlier -- he played (mostly/totally healthy) 4 seasons, including the last 2 of the RB's regime.

Do you understand what the term "overlap" means? It doesn't necessarily mean completely cover. EE played two years under RB and two years under KON.

"Start thinking before writing...Eschmeyer was also in the program (as an active player) during the final two seasons of RB when.the program won 4 B1G games COMBINED...so, you only need a modicum of common sense to figure out that Eschmeyer alone cannot possibly explain the 6-B1G-win season...of course he was a major contributor...but so was in the previous seasons in which the program won 3 or fewer B1G games. How hard is that to understand?"

So you're saying EE in his first two years was comparable to EE in his last two? 652 points is comparable to 1153 points? 63 assists is comparable to 143 assists? I could go on with his stats here.

Do you think Olah in his first two years is comparable to Olah this year (and next year)?

Again, this discussion is pointless because CC is never going to be judged for what his teams achieve in his first two years at NU. This is just finding irrelevant stats and trolling with them.


This post was edited on 3/16 9:06 AM by Gladeskat

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:
CCC is definitely BEHIND SCHEDULE, as compared to how each of his immediate THREE predecessors did by his second season.

The numbers tell the story.

By his second season, Byrdsong won FIVE (of 18) B1G games -- what then seemed unreal -- and earned the cat's second ever NIT bid. Suffice it to say that in SEVEN seasons, coaching legend Bill Foster never managed to win more than 3 B1G games, and most seasons won exactly 2. If we use 2 as the reference number of wins during BF's regime, by his second year Byrdsong won two-hundred-fifty percent that figure, and almost doubled BF's max number of B1G wins in any one season (3). 5 B1G wins was HUGE for NU, back then, and came in RB's SECOND season.

Kevin O'Neill also made significant improvements by his second season (over the level he found). He won six (of 16) B1G games, and earned another NIT berth. 6 was one more win than RB's best B1G season, and in only 16 tries (vs RB's 18). Furthermore it was triple the number of B1G wins during each RB's final two seasons (again in a shorter conference season). A 6-10 (2 games under .500) B1G record was HUGE for NU back then, and came in KO's second season.

BC also achieved by his second season a significant improvement over the level in which he found the program. He went 7-9 (just one game under .500) in the B1G. That was one win over KO's best season, and a huge improvement over KO's final season (in which he won zero B1G game). If we ignore KO's final season as an anomaly, his average number of B1G win was 4.5 (of 16). BC could at best improve 11.5 over that level (if he won every B1G game). By his second season he achieved an improvement of 7-4.5=2.5 which is 22% of the maximum possible improvement he could have achieved (by winning every B1G game).

By the end of his second season, CC has won 6 B1G games (of 18), same as in his first season. If we ignore BC's final season as an injury-caused anomaly (as we did in the case of KO), the program representative number of B1G wins under BC was 7.5 (of 18) plus an NIT bid. CC's maximal possible improvement over that would be 18-7.5=10.5. He instead fell 1.5 games below BC's typical B1G level.

OBVIOUSLY CC IS BEHIND SCHEDULE.

Of course no one is arguing he should be fired. He simply hasn't YET improved the cats B1G w/l record over their previous typical level(as did all three of his recent predecessors).

P.S. All his predecessors played their second season mostly with the previous coach's players, who were recruited for a difference system of play, and all faced some level of adversity (key injuries, transfers, etc).

P.P.S. All 3 recent predecessors actually suffer a significant drop in performance in their third season. Let us hope history won't repeat itself.

1) Do you have any other arguments in your playbook or do you just apply the same one to every situation?

2) If we can ignore situations for basketball coaches due to injuries, why cannot we do the same for the football program?

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Originally posted by Gladeskat:

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:

Originally posted by Gladeskat:
My sources (nusports) say he was all-Big Ten his last three years, which overlap with the KON era (Wiki). You don't get a sixth year unless you've been injured for the majority of two seasons. Those seasons would have had to have been during the RB era.

So, according to "your sources" EE was part of the last KO team, which went 0-18 in the B1G, right? My sources say he was gone by then, and that -- as stated earlier -- he played (mostly/totally healthy) 4 seasons, including the last 2 of the RB's regime.

Do you understand what the term "overlap" means? It doesn't necessarily mean completely cover. EE played two years under RB and two years under KON.

"Start thinking before writing...Eschmeyer was also in the program (as an active player) during the final two seasons of RB when.the program won 4 B1G games COMBINED...so, you only need a modicum of common sense to figure out that Eschmeyer alone cannot possibly explain the 6-B1G-win season...of course he was a major contributor...but so was in the previous seasons in which the program won 3 or fewer B1G games. How hard is that to understand?"

So you're saying EE in his first two years was comparable to EE in his last two? 652 points is comparable to 1153 points? 63 assists is comparable to 143 assists? I could go on with his stats here.

Do you think Olah in his first two years is comparable to Olah this year (and next year)?

Again, this discussion is pointless because CC is never going to be judged for what his teams achieve in his first two years at NU. This is just finding irrelevant stats and trolling with them.

Look, EE played 4 seasons (healthy or near healthy) and was All-B1G in three of those. One All-B1G season fell under RB and the other 2 under KO. Of his four "active" seasons in ONLY ONE did NU win more than 3 B1G games (in which it also earned an NIT bid). His most productive season was actually his penultimate, in which NU won 3 B1G games. He was somewhat less productive in his final season, yet that was the one in which NU won 6 B1G games.

The point is that is is at best a gross oversimplification to claim that the sole reason why KO won 6 B1G games that year was EE...he himself had a somewhat more productive version of EE the previous season and won only 3. Of course having EE in the team was a good thing, that is obvious. But the (relative) success of the 6-B1G-win season cannot be solely attributed to EE (as another poster contended). It takes a lot more than a very good player to win a third of B1G games (as the previous season indicated).

 

[EvanstonCat]

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:

Originally posted by Gladeskat:

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:

Originally posted by Gladeskat:
My sources (nusports) say he was all-Big Ten his last three years, which overlap with the KON era (Wiki). You don't get a sixth year unless you've been injured for the majority of two seasons. Those seasons would have had to have been during the RB era.

So, according to "your sources" EE was part of the last KO team, which went 0-18 in the B1G, right? My sources say he was gone by then, and that -- as stated earlier -- he played (mostly/totally healthy) 4 seasons, including the last 2 of the RB's regime.

Do you understand what the term "overlap" means? It doesn't necessarily mean completely cover. EE played two years under RB and two years under KON.

"Start thinking before writing...Eschmeyer was also in the program (as an active player) during the final two seasons of RB when.the program won 4 B1G games COMBINED...so, you only need a modicum of common sense to figure out that Eschmeyer alone cannot possibly explain the 6-B1G-win season...of course he was a major contributor...but so was in the previous seasons in which the program won 3 or fewer B1G games. How hard is that to understand?"

So you're saying EE in his first two years was comparable to EE in his last two? 652 points is comparable to 1153 points? 63 assists is comparable to 143 assists? I could go on with his stats here.

Do you think Olah in his first two years is comparable to Olah this year (and next year)?

Again, this discussion is pointless because CC is never going to be judged for what his teams achieve in his first two years at NU. This is just finding irrelevant stats and trolling with them.

Look, EE played 4 seasons (healthy or near healthy) and was All-B1G in three of those. One All-B1G season fell under RB and the other 2 under KO. Of his four "active" seasons in ONLY ONE did NU win more than 3 B1G games (in which it also earned an NIT bid). His most productive season was actually his penultimate, in which NU won 3 B1G games. He was somewhat less productive in his final season, yet that was the one in which NU won 6 B1G games.

The point is that is is at best a gross oversimplification to claim that the sole reason why KO won 6 B1G games that year was EE...he himself had a somewhat more productive version of EE the previous season and won only 3. Of course having EE in the team was a good thing, that is obvious. But the (relative) success of the 6-B1G-win season cannot be solely attributed to EE (as another poster contended). It takes a lot more than a very good player to win a third of B1G games (as the previous season indicated).

I'll jump back in since I'm said poster. Yes EE played 4 seasons. Yes he was All-B1G for three of those. He was 1st Team All-AMERICAN for just one of those. A 6th year player WAS the difference for KON. If you don't accept this, then how do you explain year 3 of the KON regime and the epic fall-off? I'm just dying to hear this...

 

[NJCat83588]

The epic fall-off suffered by the 1999-00 Cats probably is best attributed to RB's inability to recruit and KO's caustic personality. Talk about a young team: there were NO seniors and just 1 Junior, little brother Esch. Check out the top 7 scorers:

Ben Johnson 11.6 Freshman
Steve Lepore 9.2 Soph
Tavaras Hardy 8.1 Soph
Aaron Jennings 6.1 Freshman
David Newman 4.4 Soph
Winston Blake 3.9 Freshman
Brody Deren 3.5 Freshman

The final Esch year was remarkable in that he was a 1-man team:
Esch 19.6 Senior
David Newman 8.3 Freshman
Steve Lepore 7.2 Freshman
Sean Wink 7.1 Soph
Tavaras Hardy 6.9 Freshman
Julian Bonner 4.4 Senior
Aron Molnar 3.1 Junior

So there were no significant losses from the Esch Senior season to the 5-25 debacle, and Newman, Hardy and Lepore were a year more mature. Hard to draw any conclusion other than Esch was the main reason the Cats had a decent (but far from great) season in KO's second year.

Fast forward to BC's second season and look at the leading scorers:
Winston Blake 13.6 Junior
Tavaras Hardy 12.3 Senior
Jitim Young 12.1 Soph
Aaron Jennings 5.6 Junior
Vedran Vuukusic 5.1 Freshman
Jason Burke 4.2 Junior
Collier Drayton 4.0 Senior

VV was the only freshman to get significant minutes. The heart of the team were Juniors and Seniors. Night and day difference between the squads. Is it surprising that a veteran team got better the second year in the BC system? Not to me.

Here is the scoring seriatim for the second year Collins team:
Demps 12.5 Junior
Olah 11.7 Junior
BMac 11.4 Freshman
Law 7.0 Freshman
Cobb 6.1 Senior (Played 21 of 32 games)
Lindsey 4.4 Freshman
Lumpkin 4.3 Soph
Tap 4.1 Soph

The Collins squad is younger and lacked Senior leadership which T Hardy brought to the BC team. Would Collins have won more than 16 with the Carmody team? Would Carmody have won more than 15 with the Collins team? Who the heck knows, and who the heck cares.

Excellent Resource

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Originally posted by EvanstonCat:

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:
Look, EE played 4 seasons (healthy or near healthy) and was All-B1G in three of those. One All-B1G season fell under RB and the other 2 under KO. Of his four "active" seasons in ONLY ONE did NU win more than 3 B1G games (in which it also earned an NIT bid). His most productive season was actually his penultimate, in which NU won 3 B1G games. He was somewhat less productive in his final season, yet that was the one in which NU won 6 B1G games.

The point is that is is at best a gross oversimplification to claim that the sole reason why KO won 6 B1G games that year was EE...he himself had a somewhat more productive version of EE the previous season and won only 3. Of course having EE in the team was a good thing, that is obvious. But the (relative) success of the 6-B1G-win season cannot be solely attributed to EE (as another poster contended). It takes a lot more than a very good player to win a third of B1G games (as the previous season indicated).

I'll jump back in since I'm said poster. Yes EE played 4 seasons. Yes he was All-B1G for three of those. He was 1st Team All-AMERICAN for just one of those. A 6th year player WAS the difference for KON. If you don't accept this, then how do you explain year 3 of the KON regime and the epic fall-off? I'm just dying to hear this...

Again,think before writing...I explained already -- as you yourself quoted -- that EE was somewhat MORE productive in his second-to-last season, also under KO, yet the team only won 3 as opposed to 6 B1G games. That clearly shows that the jump from 3 to 6 in one off-season cannot be attributed to EE. One reason he was named AA in his last season but not in the marginally more productive previous season may have been the team performance....it is a bit harder to award AA recognition to someone who played for a very weak team, as opposed to a team that is competitive in a major conference and at least makes the NIT.

As for the last season of the KO regimen, you can bet that the difference in the rosters was not just the absence of EE, as you are inherently and foolishly assuming...besides graduations, there were also multiple transfers before (and after) KO's final season.

 

[NJCat83588]

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:

Originally posted by EvanstonCat:

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:

Look, EE played 4 seasons (healthy or near healthy) and was All-B1G in three of those. One All-B1G season fell under RB and the other 2 under KO. Of his four "active" seasons in ONLY ONE did NU win more than 3 B1G games (in which it also earned an NIT bid). His most productive season was actually his penultimate,
As for the last season of the KO regimen, you can bet that the difference in the rosters was not just the absence of EE, as you are inherently and foolishly assuming...besides graduations, there were also multiple transfers before (and after) KO's final season.

Actually, if you look at my post with the roster from KO's last season, you won't see a single transfer from the prior year. But feel free to continue to make up the facts as you go along!

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Originally posted by NJCat:

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:

Look, EE played 4 seasons (healthy or near healthy) and was All-B1G in three of those. One All-B1G season fell under RB and the other 2 under KO. Of his four "active" seasons in ONLY ONE did NU win more than 3 B1G games (in which it also earned an NIT bid). His most productive season was actually his penultimate,
As for the last season of the KO regimen, you can bet that the difference in the rosters was not just the absence of EE, as you are inherently and foolishly assuming...besides graduations, there were also multiple transfers before (and after) KO's final season.

Actually, if you look at my post with the roster from KO's last season, you won't see a single transfer from the prior year. But feel free to continue to make up the facts as you go along!

So, you are assuming that your own post is a reliable source, right? Just tell us how many games or minutes did Sean Wink and Aron Molnar play in KO's final season. Since they were respectively SO and JR in KO's NIT season, they must have played in his final season, right?

P.S. I include among transfers those who 'transferred' to NO team (that is, those who just quit) which for the purpose of this discussion makes sense.

This post was edited on 3/16 3:05 PM by FeliSilvestris

 

[pawildcat]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

 

[mikewebb68]

Originally posted by pawildcat:
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Give the cat credit though; been branching out quite of a bit of late from the Fitz numerology nonsense. Though Feli was only capable of writing 1 million versions of the same post, but I will admit I was wrong. Actually agreeing with said posts, however, is quite another matter....

 

[EvanstonCat]

Tell me that you are not implying that the departures of Sean Wink and Aron "F U" Molnar (that's what KON kept saying) had anything more than an infinitesimal fraction of a contribution to the plunge in KON's 3rd year relative to the loss of a 1st team All-American.

Are you seriously insane?

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Originally posted by EvanstonCat:
Tell me that you are not implying that the departures of Sean Wink and Aron "F U" Molnar (that's what KON kept saying) had anything more than an infinitesimal fraction of a contribution to the plunge in KON's 3rd year relative to the loss of a 1st team All-American.

Stop dumping the first thing that goest through your head without thinking, and start PAYING ATTENTION before writing.

How many players from the NIT year weren't present in the final KO year? Do you even know that? What about you find out?

EE was great, but AS EXPLAINED NUMEROUS TIMES, he did even better the year before the NIT and the team only managed 3 B1G wins...that is half as many as the NIT year, and again, his stats were even more impressive.

GET IT?

He also did well enough to earn 1st-team All-B1G recognition during the final RB season, and the team won even fewer B1G games.

GET IT?

He was great but for a team to win 6 B1G games many things need to go right, and many need to contribute. A single player cannot do it, as the RECORD VERY CLEARLY SHOWS.

GET IT?

And FYI, EE earned SECOND-team AA honor...it was still great and he fully deserved it...but no need to exaggerate.

This post was edited on 3/17 2:01 PM by FeliSilvestris

 

[EvanstonCat]

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:

EE was great, but AS EXPLAINED NUMEROUS TIMES, he did even better the year before the NIT and the team only managed 3 B1G wins...that is half as many as the NIT year, and again, his stats were even more impressive.

GET IT?

No, I don't get it. Explain to me again how EE does better the year before the NIT but fails to earn All-American recognition.

You obviously did not watch a single game during that NIT year. You did not see Evan Eschmeyer triple teamed taking down IU for the first time in decades in Bloomington against triple teams.

If Eschmeyer had any decent help whatsoever that wasn't a freshman, we would have done better than go to the NIT.

GET IT?

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Originally posted by EvanstonCat:

Originally posted by FeliSilvestris:

EE was great, but AS EXPLAINED NUMEROUS TIMES, he did even better the year before the NIT and the team only managed 3 B1G wins...that is half as many as the NIT year, and again, his stats were even more impressive.

GET IT?

If Eschmeyer had any decent help whatsoever that wasn't a freshman, we would have done better than go to the NIT.

Can't you see that what you wrote is totally consistent with what I have been writing? Isn't that TOTALLY OBVIOUS to you?

My whole point has been that for NU to win 6 B1G games it takes much more than ONE excellent player....and EE's own previous seasons, especially his penultimate, absolutely prove it.

Sorry, but you desperately do need reasoning help... very basic logic...sorry, but that is the truth...And it may help you in everything you do. The sooner you realize it, the better it will be FOR YOU!!

P.S. I already explained to you why EE had more impressive stats during his penultimate season (a verifiable fact), yet didn't get 2nd-team AA recognition as he did in his last one...find the answer in the previous posts....the stats are what they are, and anyone can verify them...have you?...anyhow EE did get 1st-team All-B1G recognition in all three of his final seasons...the TEAM won 2, 3 and 6 B1G games respectively.




This post was edited on 3/18 10:44 AM by FeliSilvestris

 

[EvanstonCat]

No, only in your bizarre choplogic world would it be obvious.

Here is what is obvious:

EE as a soph and junior = All-B1G
rest of team = close to zero
EE as a soph and junior + rest of team = shitty losing seasons

EE as a senior = All-AMERICAN
rest of team = still close to zero
EE as a senior + rest of team = NIT

post NIT NU team = NIT team - EE (-Aron Molar -Sean Wink) + frosh a little older = 5 win season
Aron Molnar + Sean Wink = close to zero (again, if you want to debate this, then there really is nothing to say)

KON coach pre NIT, NIT, and post NIT seasons..

KON was not a material factor. All other players generally sucked. Ergo EE was the significant differentiating factor for the NIT season.

Why is that obvious to everyone but you?

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Originally posted by EvanstonCat:
No, only in your bizarre choplogic world would it be obvious.

Here is what is obvious:

EE as a soph and junior = All-B1G
rest of team = close to zero
EE as a soph and junior + rest of team = shitty losing seasons

EE as a senior = All-AMERICAN
rest of team = still close to zero
EE as a senior + rest of team = NIT

post NIT NU team = NIT team - EE (-Aron Molar -Sean Wink) + frosh a little older = 5 win season
Aron Molnar + Sean Wink = close to zero (again, if you want to debate this, then there really is nothing to say)

KON coach pre NIT, NIT, and post NIT seasons..

KON was not a material factor. All other players generally sucked. Ergo EE was the significant differentiating factor for the NIT season.

Why is that obvious to everyone but you?

A LOT OF PLAYERS from KO's NIT team were NOT present in KO's final season....GET IT? EE, Wink and Molnar were AMONG THOSE, but not the only ones....Are you too lazy to check the rosters, but not lazy enough to keep spewing uninformed nonsense?

I already pointed out to you NUMEORUS TIMES that EE's 3rd-year stats were actually MORE IMPRESSIVE than his own final year stats... haven't you yet bothered to check the damn stats yourself? Why don't you?? Yet the team won half as many games.

Whether he was named 2nd-team AA or not the stats are what they are...Check them once and for all....will you?

I have already EXPLAINED TO YOU something that most people understand without explanation....it is more difficult to get named AA when one plays for a 3-win B1G team with an overall losing record and no postseason, than it is when one plays for a competitive B1G team with a non-losing record which makes it to the NIT...isn't that TOTALLY OBVIOUS to you?