per Rivals, we offered Sam Ukwuachu.
https://rivals.yahoo.com/northwestern/football/recruiting/player-Samuel-Ukwuachu-109928
https://rivals.yahoo.com/northwestern/football/recruiting/player-Samuel-Ukwuachu-109928
For all those who like to tout how NU only recruits 'character guys'......
- Thread starter DarthCat
- Start date
1) We offered and he didn't come here.
2) This is one guy out of how many dozens Fitz and company have recruited.
3) I'll match NU's record on recruiting character guys against any other D1 school in the country. You can hit Fitz about a lot of things. This is definitely not one of them.
Is there a point you are trying to make? Obviously we would not have recruited him had he exhibited this type of behavior when he was being recruited. That's not something you can say about many college football programs who love to give talented players "second chances" just to try and get a leg up on the competition. It looks like Baylor and their head coach fit into that category Had he come here, he would not have lasted long.
Given the reliability of the Rivals database and how often we see confusion over whether a recruit has been offered or not, I don't know that #1 is even true. I tried searching for articles or other verification that we had offered and could not find it.
His offer was listed on 247.
I agree completely with point #3 made by wildcat2011: you can say many things about Pat as a head coach, but you can't say he has ever lowered his standards around the character he expects from his team.
Getting an offer is only one part of the process. The relationship picks up steam there and expectations are made more clear over time. The kid chose not to commit as the process went on and the relationship developed. We may have been disappointed but both Fitz and the player may have seen the disconnect by the time the choice was made. Had he chosen NU he also may not have gotten into any rough water due to social pressure and oversight. Road not taken.
Fitz is now accountable for every teenage recruit offered a scholarship, including for poor decisions made years later at another school or in the work world? Nonsense. Hell, I stop blaming parents after fifth grade.
This is a weird thread...
If the worst that we can find to blame on Fitz are the actions of a young man that
1. Received an offer that was made and never accepted
2. Happened while he was under the tutelage of another coach at another school
3. Never spent a single day under Fitz' coaching
4. Happened years after anything that Fitz and the staff would have been able to see at the time of the offer,
Then we have a pretty good coach on our hands.
If you want to bash Fitz or NU in general you have to do better than this.
If the worst that we can find to blame on Fitz are the actions of a young man that
1. Received an offer that was made and never accepted
2. Happened while he was under the tutelage of another coach at another school
3. Never spent a single day under Fitz' coaching
4. Happened years after anything that Fitz and the staff would have been able to see at the time of the offer,
Then we have a pretty good coach on our hands.
If you want to bash Fitz or NU in general you have to do better than this.
+1. Seems like you're breaking out the old Popeil Pocket Fisherman here, Darth. Bit of a stretch, IMO, and not sure what positive motivation you could've had in posting this.
[QUOTE="corbi296, post: 68856, member: 538" Had he come here, he would not have lasted long.[/QUOTE]
Or maybe if he had come to NU, he would've learned that rape is bad and wouldn't do it.
Or maybe if he had come to NU, he would've learned that rape is bad and wouldn't do it.
Wow, threw something out not intending to be an admonishment of anyone, especially the coach. If it was intended to be at anyone, it was many of the 'fans' on this board who love to tout the criminal conduct that occurs at other 'big time' programs, portraying that NU is somehow above such conduct of its 85 scholarship football athletes. Love seeing the "OT" posts linking a story about player conduct at OSU or FSU or some other 'factory', implying that NU is somehow better because this never "seems" to happen here.
It's even happening in this thread, with a post suggesting that had he come to NU, maybe he wouldn't be the convicted criminal he is today. I was simply showing that had the young man made a different decision, NU could be front and center on the news for being associated with a player who committed these acts, that we are not above reproach and that other coaches who have players like this in their programs are not necessarily putting winning above all else, allowing criminals on their team because they can help them win. The point was that had he made a different decision, NU and Fitz, who we know doesn't place winning above ALL else, could be in the same position and unfairly viewed as such.
It's even happening in this thread, with a post suggesting that had he come to NU, maybe he wouldn't be the convicted criminal he is today. I was simply showing that had the young man made a different decision, NU could be front and center on the news for being associated with a player who committed these acts, that we are not above reproach and that other coaches who have players like this in their programs are not necessarily putting winning above all else, allowing criminals on their team because they can help them win. The point was that had he made a different decision, NU and Fitz, who we know doesn't place winning above ALL else, could be in the same position and unfairly viewed as such.
Not really because, like Boise, we would be in the news because we kicked him off the team for being a douchenozzle and it would be the school he transferred to getting the heat.
It's funny, because Baylor and Art Briles are currently only in trouble because they were (possibly) fully apprised that this was a troubled, violent young man and overlooked that to bring him on campus to win games. Boise was seemingly no so apprised and once they found out they took corrective action.
Also, if you think that we don't take many, many fewer chances when it comes to character issues as compared to factories, you're crazy.
Hell, wasn't Walsh caught drinking underage and being a general menace and that was a big deal leading to suspension, etc?
These types of posts are by far the most annoying, passive aggressive way to interact with someone on a message board.
He spoke his opinion, respond to it. There's nothing to make better or worse...it's his opinion. Telling someone to "stop" (unless they are being rude or outwardly aggressive) is just sanctimonious.
I
Recently, I was in a debate about whether fraternities should be allowed to exist. I argued for it, but the counter argument was that the cases of sexual assault was far higher among fraternity members than non-Greek male students. I recalled my experience. If one of my fraternity brothers touched a female about 1/2 of us would beat the crap out of him, about 80% of us would report him to the police and 99% would've kicked him out of the fraternity. That was the culture we had. We respected women and made sure all others did too.
That's the culture we have with NU football and it starts with Fitz. He's not going to tolerate assaulting a female and I'm sure every single player knows it. He talks to the media about helping players become good husbands and good fathers and developing character. That's not a tag line. He does it based off of everything I've seen. It shows in the players behavior and lack of arrest records
I stand by my statement. When was the last time an NU player was involved in a crime against a woman? You dont hear about rape charges, domestic violence... Coming from NU players. Why? It's not a coincidence in my mind.
Recently, I was in a debate about whether fraternities should be allowed to exist. I argued for it, but the counter argument was that the cases of sexual assault was far higher among fraternity members than non-Greek male students. I recalled my experience. If one of my fraternity brothers touched a female about 1/2 of us would beat the crap out of him, about 80% of us would report him to the police and 99% would've kicked him out of the fraternity. That was the culture we had. We respected women and made sure all others did too.
That's the culture we have with NU football and it starts with Fitz. He's not going to tolerate assaulting a female and I'm sure every single player knows it. He talks to the media about helping players become good husbands and good fathers and developing character. That's not a tag line. He does it based off of everything I've seen. It shows in the players behavior and lack of arrest records
Baylor seems to have adopted the "win at all costs" attitude of the football factories. A few years back they had a player actually kill another player and the staff? administration tried to cover it up. Don't remember all the details and I could be wrong on some of the facts but a kid was killed by someone in their athletic program.
True. That was a basketball player, but the fact remains that for a Christian university Baylor seems to have more than its share of problems......
Not sure what being a Christian university has to do it with it. Notre Dame has accepted criminal behavior in exchange for winning for years
You're right here, Shakes. It's cultural, and it's made clear that that's not part of what 'we' do.
Of course, do we really need 'don't rape' to be part of what makes NU special? Well, sadly, yes.
I recall reading at some point during, I think, Urban's time at Florida, that two major points of off-field emphasis were 'don't carry guns' and 'don't hurt women.' Well, duh, but it needed to be said frequently (and I don't really know if it worked).
There was an ESPN feature on Florida covering up incidents or managing to get reduced sentences or no sentences at all in some cases. There were 119 criminal investigations of football/basketball players at Florida from 2009-2014. Most of the was after Meyer left, but a lot of cases were his recruits and he certainly had problems in this regard while he was there. Every school will have some type of incident, but 119 reeks. Of institutional control.
From cradle to (eventual) grave, I've generally lived in Evanston. There are less ways to find trouble on the North Shore than say a Miami or Tallahassee. The police blotter in the weekly newspaper rarely featured any NU students, and when it did, we usually read about petty unlawfulness versus what occurred in the southern or western portions of Evanston, insular places most students would avoid anyway. And it is not as if local police have emergency hotline into the athletic department like any number of SEC college towns. I attended my fair share of fraternity parties on campus and remember the shock of how civil and sober everyone seemed compared to the experience at my university. In fact, locals like me gravitated toward such vice dens as Division Street in nearby Chicago and away from Northwestern. At a small private school where mostly highly academically minded folks matriculate, there is simply not much room for hooliganism.
Was Aaron Hernandez there during Meyer's tenure? He certainly didn't get the message.
You're completely wrong about the staff trying to cover it up. That never happened. Dave Bliss paid Patrick Dennehy's tuition out of his own pocket to keep Dennehy off scholarship, then lied to investigators about it to cover up his own involvement. This was disgraceful conduct -- especially when he lied that Dennehy was funding his education through profits from dealing drugs while Dennehy was no longer alive to defend himself -- but it had absolutely nothing to do with Dennehy's murder.
I think the issue is what standard you hold the team to. Someone is always going to fail to meet the standard you set. If your standard is "don't rape women" or "don't beat your girlfriend" then when someone fails to hit that standard it's a huge problem. Let's say the highest standard is to be a model gentleman 100% of the time or to act like the girl's father is watching you at all times. Now when someone fails to hit that standard by a small margin, they're still not a rapist.
Let's simplify:
Calling a woman a "witch" is bad
Beating women is worse.
If you hold a group to the standard don't beat women, someone probably will.
If you hold a group to a standard don't call your girlfriend a "witch," someone will, but they probably aren't going to drop so far under that standard to smack her around.
shakes3858, this was kind of my original point. I personally don't think a different college environment would have changed what this player did at Boise State, and then did at Baylor. I am not a psychologist, but isn't it considered somewhat common to find that players who commit these kinds of crimes were raised in environments where they witnessed this type of behavior? The seeds are planted long before they ever set foot on a college campus.
That said, my point was that I don't think it's a standard or expectations NUs sets that prevents this type of behavior from occurring as often as we see at other places. First, I think we've been lucky. Had Sam Ukwuachu accepted his offer to come to NU, I firmly believe he would have done here, the same types of things he did at Boise State and Baylor. The thought that somehow the high standards of NU would have changed this man from being a convicted rapist to an upstanding member of society is crazy in my opinion.
Second, I feel that if there is anything about Northwestern that probably is intrinsic to the university that prevents these types of situations happening here more often it's that our academic requirements are such, that the types of characteristics required of students to meet these requirements are inconsistent with characteristics of those who commit violent or sexual crimes. I am not delving into a cause/effect relationship here or asking to open another debate, but I do believe that academically successful individuals make up a relatively small percentage of violent/sexual criminals.
That said, my point was that I don't think it's a standard or expectations NUs sets that prevents this type of behavior from occurring as often as we see at other places. First, I think we've been lucky. Had Sam Ukwuachu accepted his offer to come to NU, I firmly believe he would have done here, the same types of things he did at Boise State and Baylor. The thought that somehow the high standards of NU would have changed this man from being a convicted rapist to an upstanding member of society is crazy in my opinion.
Second, I feel that if there is anything about Northwestern that probably is intrinsic to the university that prevents these types of situations happening here more often it's that our academic requirements are such, that the types of characteristics required of students to meet these requirements are inconsistent with characteristics of those who commit violent or sexual crimes. I am not delving into a cause/effect relationship here or asking to open another debate, but I do believe that academically successful individuals make up a relatively small percentage of violent/sexual criminals.
What you wrote is nothing close to the point I am making. My point is that programs that hold kids to bare minimum standards like "don't rape or beat women" will see kids that rape and beat women. Schools that hold kids to a high standards will not. Florida, Baylor... seem to be holding kids to that minimum standard and are seeing all types of problems.
Your point seems to be that it was too late for Ukwauchu by the time he went to college. I don't believe that is the case. When kids commit at age 17, they're under the influence of a coach. That coach can use motivating factors like playing time, being on the team... to keep a kid on a certain path. He can also counsel him on the right way to live his life and be a mentor that way. Having a mentor like Fitz can do a lot for a 17 year old. How many kids have been through the program in the last 10 years? How many have their been issues with? 17-18 years old is not too late.
So people of high academic standing don't commit sexual assaults or rapes? Well, he's a picture of a guy getting his Doctoral hood and degree (the Baylor thing pure coincidence I bet).
Never said, "So people of high academic standing don't commit sexual assaults or rapes". Never. But in classic board disagreement, paraphrasing and straw man arguments are rampant. I said that "I do believe that academically successful individuals make up a relatively small percentage of violent/sexual criminals." That is not the absolute that you attributed me to saying.
Incidentally, since you brought it up, Cosby's "doctorate" he is shown receiving above is an honorary degree, not evidence of the characteristics associated with academic discipline and success. As for his actual academic record, "Cosby dropped out of high school after he flunked the tenth grade three times. He enlisted in the Navy, where he got his GED, and then enrolled at Temple University, where he dropped out to pursue a show business career. His unfinished bachelor’s degree from Temple was eventually bestowed on him because of “life experience.” Cosby enrolled as a part-time doctoral student at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, which awarded him the Ed.D. degree in 1977 for a dissertation on Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids."
Ultimately, where I think we disagree is that I do not believe Fitz, for all the wonderful things he does for the program and as a coach in my opinion, is capable of creating a standard that makes the types of crimes we see committed elsewhere less likely to occur by holding kids to 'higher standards'.
Incidentally, since you brought it up, Cosby's "doctorate" he is shown receiving above is an honorary degree, not evidence of the characteristics associated with academic discipline and success. As for his actual academic record, "Cosby dropped out of high school after he flunked the tenth grade three times. He enlisted in the Navy, where he got his GED, and then enrolled at Temple University, where he dropped out to pursue a show business career. His unfinished bachelor’s degree from Temple was eventually bestowed on him because of “life experience.” Cosby enrolled as a part-time doctoral student at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, which awarded him the Ed.D. degree in 1977 for a dissertation on Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids."
Ultimately, where I think we disagree is that I do not believe Fitz, for all the wonderful things he does for the program and as a coach in my opinion, is capable of creating a standard that makes the types of crimes we see committed elsewhere less likely to occur by holding kids to 'higher standards'.
