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+/- for the Pain in Champaign

PurpleWhiteBoy

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Feb 25, 2021
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There weren't a lot of bright spots for NU in the first game of 2024.
I cut out the last 4:55 as "garbage time" but probably could have tossed the entire 2nd half.
Justin Mullins came into the game at 4:55, with Illinois ahead 82-55.
Mullins attempted his first field goal, a jumper, which was blocked. He also committed 3 fouls.
Luke Hunger had 5 points, a rebound and an assist in garbage time to pad out a mixed effort.

PlayerMinutesNU PtsILL PtsRaw +/-Player AdjustGame +/-
Martinelli243552-17+5.0+1.6
Berry294668-22+4.3-0.1
Preston61011-1+2.0+1.0
Hunger142031-11+1.3+1.0
Clayton4712-5-1.5-2.5
Nicholson142540-15+0.2-2.8
Buie273766-29-0.2-6.0
Langborg244254-12-5.1-7.5
Barnhizer335376-23-5.9-10.5

From a team perspective, NU really got walloped when Boo Buie was on the court. Not sure what was going on, but I hope I don't see it again. My guess is that he couldn't guard anyone on Illinois.
When Nicholson was on the court, NU got outscored 40-25 in about 14.4 minutes. Illinois scored 17 points in the first 5 minutes. By possession, Illinois scored 3,2,2,2,0,3,2,3 before the first TV timeout.

On the less grim side... Ty Berry and Nick Martinelli competed.

Berry had a really difficult time with Domask, giving away 3 inches and 30 lbs, but at least he didn't quit. Martinelli defended Domask on one occasion and stayed right on him, forcing an airball from a red hot scorer. Unfortunately everybody else watched an Illinois player grab the errant shot and dunk it. It was that type of night. We were a step slow at every position and Illinois made almost everything. The Illini were 25 of 38 inside the arc and 10 of 18 outside it. They shredded us. A compliment to their coach, gameplan and execution. Their big guy Hawkins, went out to the perimeter, dragging our centers out there, enabling the taller Illini players to punish our guards inside. Our double teams were notably ineffective.

And now for the bright spots... Luke Hunger displayed his shooting touch from the perimeter, making 2 of 3 from outside the arc.
More importantly, the lineup of Hunger/Martinelli/Barnhizer/Berry/Langborg was effective against Illinois. With Buie on the bench, that lineup won their 2 segments by a combined 18-16 over almost 8 minutes of action. Hopefully we see that lineup when Buie needs a rest. All other lineups with Hunger at center got outscored 15-2 in 6 minutes.

The lineup of Nicholson/Martinelli/Barnhizer/Berry/Buie (which has been our best, but rarely plays) got 4 minutes of time and we got outscored 7-4. That was the segment early in the 2nd half where Nicholson missed a layup with his left hand and dunked an offensive rebound. I would really like to see that group of 5 playing together often, instead of rarely.

The pieces are there, but the offense looks really stagnant and one-dimensional, with Buie trying to do a lot by himself and not much going on to create easy shots.
Defensively, we need to be able and willing to switch to zone if necessary. (Sorry Gato).

Lastly, according to my ratings, this was the Illini's best game of the season and NU's 3rd worst (behind Chicago State and Detroit Mercy).
 
There weren't a lot of bright spots for NU in the first game of 2024.
I cut out the last 4:55 as "garbage time" but probably could have tossed the entire 2nd half.
Justin Mullins came into the game at 4:55, with Illinois ahead 82-55.
Mullins attempted his first field goal, a jumper, which was blocked. He also committed 3 fouls.
Luke Hunger had 5 points, a rebound and an assist in garbage time to pad out a mixed effort.

PlayerMinutesNU PtsILL PtsRaw +/-Player AdjustGame +/-
Martinelli243552-17+5.0+1.6
Berry294668-22+4.3-0.1
Preston61011-1+2.0+1.0
Hunger142031-11+1.3+1.0
Clayton4712-5-1.5-2.5
Nicholson142540-15+0.2-2.8
Buie273766-29-0.2-6.0
Langborg244254-12-5.1-7.5
Barnhizer335376-23-5.9-10.5

From a team perspective, NU really got walloped when Boo Buie was on the court. Not sure what was going on, but I hope I don't see it again. My guess is that he couldn't guard anyone on Illinois.
When Nicholson was on the court, NU got outscored 40-25 in about 14.4 minutes. Illinois scored 17 points in the first 5 minutes. By possession, Illinois scored 3,2,2,2,0,3,2,3 before the first TV timeout.

On the less grim side... Ty Berry and Nick Martinelli competed.

Berry had a really difficult time with Domask, giving away 3 inches and 30 lbs, but at least he didn't quit. Martinelli defended Domask on one occasion and stayed right on him, forcing an airball from a red hot scorer. Unfortunately everybody else watched an Illinois player grab the errant shot and dunk it. It was that type of night. We were a step slow at every position and Illinois made almost everything. The Illini were 25 of 38 inside the arc and 10 of 18 outside it. They shredded us. A compliment to their coach, gameplan and execution. Their big guy Hawkins, went out to the perimeter, dragging our centers out there, enabling the taller Illini players to punish our guards inside. Our double teams were notably ineffective.

And now for the bright spots... Luke Hunger displayed his shooting touch from the perimeter, making 2 of 3 from outside the arc.
More importantly, the lineup of Hunger/Martinelli/Barnhizer/Berry/Langborg was effective against Illinois. With Buie on the bench, that lineup won their 2 segments by a combined 18-16 over almost 8 minutes of action. Hopefully we see that lineup when Buie needs a rest. All other lineups with Hunger at center got outscored 15-2 in 6 minutes.

The lineup of Nicholson/Martinelli/Barnhizer/Berry/Buie (which has been our best, but rarely plays) got 4 minutes of time and we got outscored 7-4. That was the segment early in the 2nd half where Nicholson missed a layup with his left hand and dunked an offensive rebound. I would really like to see that group of 5 playing together often, instead of rarely.

The pieces are there, but the offense looks really stagnant and one-dimensional, with Buie trying to do a lot by himself and not much going on to create easy shots.
Defensively, we need to be able and willing to switch to zone if necessary. (Sorry Gato).

Lastly, according to my ratings, this was the Illini's best game of the season and NU's 3rd worst (behind Chicago State and Detroit Mercy).
The only way you can have Big Matt out there against this team is if you are willing to let Hawkins take 3’s. He needs to be a rim protector and keep players from securing an easy put back. Boo faced a double with his guy and Hawkins nearly every drive. Hunger is too slow to guard the penetration, but he has at least a semblance of an offensive game. We missed Robbie last night. We had a big hole in the center of the court yesterday. I might have just used my 15 fouls on those easy shots in the paint we gave up. There was little resistance. Barney just has to do more if we expect to win. Have to guess his hand is bothering him, but he wasn’t even aggressive as usual on defense. We are about to see if the 🧙 has a magic formula to fix these defensive woes.
 
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The only way you can have Big Matt out there against this team is if you are willing to let Hawkins take 3’s. He needs to be a rim protector and keep players from securing an easy put back. Boo faced a double with his guy and Hawkins nearly every drive. Hunger is too slow to guard the penetration, but he has at least a semblance of an offensive game. We missed Robbie last night. We had a big hole in the center of the court yesterday. I might have just used my 15 fouls on those easy shots in the paint we gave up. There was little resistance. Barney just has to do more if we expect to win. Have to guess his hand is bothering him, but he wasn’t even aggressive as usual on defense. We are about to see if the 🧙 has a magic formula to fix these defensive woes.
Hawkins is a severe matchup problem for nearly every team in college basketball. To have an NBA style stretch 4/5 who can move and shoot like that still playing as an upperclassman is quite a rarity. Few teams have a 5 who can deal with that. If you're lucky, you have a stretch 4 like Beran who isn't too outsized by Hawkins that can chase him around.

Tough to blame MN for that specifically.
 
Hawkins is a severe matchup problem for nearly every team in college basketball. To have an NBA style stretch 4/5 who can move and shoot like that still playing as an upperclassman is quite a rarity. Few teams have a 5 who can deal with that. If you're lucky, you have a stretch 4 like Beran who isn't too outsized by Hawkins that can chase him around.

Tough to blame MN for that specifically.
Didn’t blame Matt. Said you couldn’t play him against this team when Hawkins was out there.
 
I really think a zone or variations of zone would really help this team in particular. Will be interesting to see if they make that change in certain situations. Would be great as a surprise wrinkle from time to time if nothing else; last night was the definition of insanity. I don't think we won a single 4 minute increment from start to finish. That is both staggering and telling.
 
Didn’t blame Matt. Said you couldn’t play him against this team when Hawkins was out there.
You can play Nicholson, you just can't have him chasing guys around the 3 point arc.
And you also have to post him up and try to do something on offense to make Hawkins work a little, maybe even draw a few fouls.
Watching Hawkins stand at the free throw line defensively "observing" Nicholson holding the ball outside the arc was rather painful, wouldn't you say? (actually I know you made reference to this in another thread) That has to do with the way our offense is drawn up. Its really a strange approach.
 
There weren't a lot of bright spots for NU in the first game of 2024.
I cut out the last 4:55 as "garbage time" but probably could have tossed the entire 2nd half.
Justin Mullins came into the game at 4:55, with Illinois ahead 82-55.
Mullins attempted his first field goal, a jumper, which was blocked. He also committed 3 fouls.
Luke Hunger had 5 points, a rebound and an assist in garbage time to pad out a mixed effort.

PlayerMinutesNU PtsILL PtsRaw +/-Player AdjustGame +/-
Martinelli243552-17+5.0+1.6
Berry294668-22+4.3-0.1
Preston61011-1+2.0+1.0
Hunger142031-11+1.3+1.0
Clayton4712-5-1.5-2.5
Nicholson142540-15+0.2-2.8
Buie273766-29-0.2-6.0
Langborg244254-12-5.1-7.5
Barnhizer335376-23-5.9-10.5

From a team perspective, NU really got walloped when Boo Buie was on the court. Not sure what was going on, but I hope I don't see it again. My guess is that he couldn't guard anyone on Illinois.
When Nicholson was on the court, NU got outscored 40-25 in about 14.4 minutes. Illinois scored 17 points in the first 5 minutes. By possession, Illinois scored 3,2,2,2,0,3,2,3 before the first TV timeout.

On the less grim side... Ty Berry and Nick Martinelli competed.

Berry had a really difficult time with Domask, giving away 3 inches and 30 lbs, but at least he didn't quit. Martinelli defended Domask on one occasion and stayed right on him, forcing an airball from a red hot scorer. Unfortunately everybody else watched an Illinois player grab the errant shot and dunk it. It was that type of night. We were a step slow at every position and Illinois made almost everything. The Illini were 25 of 38 inside the arc and 10 of 18 outside it. They shredded us. A compliment to their coach, gameplan and execution. Their big guy Hawkins, went out to the perimeter, dragging our centers out there, enabling the taller Illini players to punish our guards inside. Our double teams were notably ineffective.

And now for the bright spots... Luke Hunger displayed his shooting touch from the perimeter, making 2 of 3 from outside the arc.
More importantly, the lineup of Hunger/Martinelli/Barnhizer/Berry/Langborg was effective against Illinois. With Buie on the bench, that lineup won their 2 segments by a combined 18-16 over almost 8 minutes of action. Hopefully we see that lineup when Buie needs a rest. All other lineups with Hunger at center got outscored 15-2 in 6 minutes.

The lineup of Nicholson/Martinelli/Barnhizer/Berry/Buie (which has been our best, but rarely plays) got 4 minutes of time and we got outscored 7-4. That was the segment early in the 2nd half where Nicholson missed a layup with his left hand and dunked an offensive rebound. I would really like to see that group of 5 playing together often, instead of rarely.

The pieces are there, but the offense looks really stagnant and one-dimensional, with Buie trying to do a lot by himself and not much going on to create easy shots.
Defensively, we need to be able and willing to switch to zone if necessary. (Sorry Gato).

Lastly, according to my ratings, this was the Illini's best game of the season and NU's 3rd worst (behind Chicago State and Detroit Mercy).
So true, there is a time for zone. Man is great but one to adapt. Wtf was ccc? Every team we play throws zone when we show success just to see what they can do. Same with the press.

They weren’t blowing out the threes. Clog the frocking lane and foul hard.
 
The only way you can have Big Matt out there against this team is if you are willing to let Hawkins take 3’s. He needs to be a rim protector and keep players from securing an easy put back. Boo faced a double with his guy and Hawkins nearly every drive. Hunger is too slow to guard the penetration, but he has at least a semblance of an offensive game. We missed Robbie last night. We had a big hole in the center of the court yesterday. I might have just used my 15 fouls on those easy shots in the paint we gave up. There was little resistance. Barney just has to do more if we expect to win. Have to guess his hand is bothering him, but he wasn’t even aggressive as usual on defense. We are about to see if the 🧙 has a magic formula to fix these defensive woes.
Waiting for SD to say Lowry is why we never dropped to zone…
 
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Hawkins is a severe matchup problem for nearly every team in college basketball. To have an NBA style stretch 4/5 who can move and shoot like that still playing as an upperclassman is quite a rarity. Few teams have a 5 who can deal with that. If you're lucky, you have a stretch 4 like Beran who isn't too outsized by Hawkins that can chase him around.

Tough to blame MN for that specifically.
He’s nance like
 
That was last year. This team isn’t nearly the same defensive team without Chase and Robbie( gasp).
That was last year. This team isn’t nearly the same defensive team without Chase and Robbie( gasp).
The team had MORE options to guard Hawkins last year (Illinois had Hawkins and another 6-9 guys play big minutes in that game) than it does outside MN/a center this year! Take a five off the floor and you’re stuck with… Barnheizer?
 
Hawkins is a severe matchup problem for nearly every team in college basketball. To have an NBA style stretch 4/5 who can move and shoot like that still playing as an upperclassman is quite a rarity. Few teams have a 5 who can deal with that. If you're lucky, you have a stretch 4 like Beran who isn't too outsized by Hawkins that can chase him around.

Tough to blame MN for that specifically.
Please don’t let CCC hear you say we need more stretch 4s
 
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NU really got walloped when Boo Buie was on the court. Not sure what was going on, but I hope I don't see it again. My guess is that he couldn't guard anyone on Illinois.
Yes, I think we will see more of this: the opposing offense forcing our defensive switches until their best guard scorer is guarded by Boo, similar to what we like to do against Purdue's Fletcher Lawyer. At the very least it will tire Boo out so he won't be as effective on the offensive end.
 
NU has to have a zone in their game plans. It could have helped against Chicago State and possibly slowed the Illini a little. The double teaming allowed just too many easy baskets. NU could have played a perfect game and still lost- Domask was a handful.
 
Waiting for SD to say Lowry is why we never dropped to zone…
Baiter extraordinaire, oh most appropriate handle! Are you able to not give in to your baiting temptations once in a while, or do you have no self-restraint whatsoever?

NU couldn’t have beaten Illinois last game with its all-time greatest lineup of Graham, McKinney, Shurna, Law, Buie, etc.; coaching meant very little in that game; we were out-played at every position because they could create 1:1 size, talent and athleticism mismatches with Domask or Hawkins or Guerrier and we could not solve them with the post-trap or with 1:1 defense, leading also to uncontested shots by their very capable guards. Zone would have been a mitigant, not a panacea.
 
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NU couldn’t have beaten Illinois last game with its all-time greatest lineup of Graham, McKinney, Shurna, Law, Buie, etc.; coaching meant very little in that game; we were out-played at every position because they could create 1:1 size, talent and athleticism mismatches with Domask or Hawkins or Guerrier and we could not solve them with the post-trap or with 1:1 defense, leading also to uncontested shots by their very capable guards. Zone would have been a mitigant, not a panacea.
Wow that's an amazingly terrible take.
 
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Please don’t let CCC hear you say we need more stretch 4s
You know... I was thinking about this the other day. We used to lament that this team had a bunch of stretch 4s and no guards. Now, I look at the lineup and we are so small. We have four guards and no 4s at all. Even Martinelli plays more like a slashing 3 than a 4.

The problem with our recruiting strategy has been, and seems to be again, the lack of balance across the roster. I imagine this is also a consequence of how hard it is to recruit to NU. You just have to take the best players you can regardless of positional balance because it is hard to get high quality players consistently at every position.
 
Ok - I’m ready to listen to your objections to my take when you are able.
Wooden would not have played man to man the whole game especially when it wasn’t working. Knight would have choked out a player each time they committed a soft foul anywhere near the paint. Phil Jackson would have run a triangle.
 
I don't understand why NU does not play at a faster tempo at times to generate more shots, I think it would help to get Mullins on the floor playing up tempo.

Boo and Berry getting up and down the court would generate easier shots Ryan and Brooks as well. Boo is much better jn the open floor,

Would have to slow down with MN in the game, Hunger would be great hitting the trailer 3.

Kind of like going to a no huddle in football
 
Wooden would not have played man to man the whole game especially when it wasn’t working. Knight would have choked out a player each time they committed a soft foul anywhere near the paint. Phil Jackson would have run a triangle.
Let’s agree to disagree this would have changed the outcome.
 
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I don't understand why NU does not play at a faster tempo at times to generate more shots, I think it would help to get Mullins on the floor playing up tempo.

Boo and Berry getting up and down the court would generate easier shots Ryan and Brooks as well. Boo is much better jn the open floor,

Would have to slow down with MN in the game, Hunger would be great hitting the trailer 3.

Kind of like going to a no huddle in football
Mullins looks lost out there.
 
Ok - I’m ready to listen to your objections to my take when you are able.
My first objection is that your assertion that the best of the best of all NU players ever could not have beaten them is simply moronic and indefensibly defeatist.

It's really a pointless assertion to make either way. It says nothing about the team and everything about you.

I'm just as confident that the best NU players would win that game against those Illini on that day twenty times out of ten. Heck it wouldn't even need to be the best ever, it could be just the best eight NU players of the last 20 years. Total NU domination would result.

There seems to be some subtext for you needing to defend the coaching and so claiming no victory was possible. That's your baggage and I'm not interested in that at all, so save it for the folks who so easily bait you with it.

I wonder if film of a young Wooden playing exists...
 
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You know... I was thinking about this the other day. We used to lament that this team had a bunch of stretch 4s and no guards. Now, I look at the lineup and we are so small. We have four guards and no 4s at all. Even Martinelli plays more like a slashing 3 than a 4.

The problem with our recruiting strategy has been, and seems to be again, the lack of balance across the roster. I imagine this is also a consequence of how hard it is to recruit to NU. You just have to take the best players you can regardless of positional balance because it is hard to get high quality players consistently at every position.

We were definitely small against Illinois. Seeing as how we have 3 centers and 5 other rotational players, it is possible to look at every real choice Collins has so far this season.

The lineups with Barnhizer at the 4 have done this so far...

CenterForwardGuardGuardGuardNUOppMinutes
NicholsonBarnhizerBerryLangborgBuie196183116
PrestonBarnhizerBerryLangborgBuie849547
HungerBarnhizerBerryLangborgBuie623028

With Martinelli at the 4 and Barnhizer at the 3, we have...

CenterForwardWingGuardGuardNUOppMinutes
NicholsonMartinelliBarnhizerBerryBuie431719
NicholsonMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBuie363524
NicholsonMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBerry11157
PrestonMartinelliBarnhizerBerryBuie282412
PrestonMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBuie251813
PrestonMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBerry191512
HungerMartinelliBarnhizerBerryBuie10159
HungerMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBuie201811
HungerMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBerry181910

With Martinelli at the 4 and Barnhizer on the bench, we have...

CenterForwardGuardGuardGuardNUOppMinutes
NicholsonMartinelliBerryLangborgBuie13138
PrestonMartinelliBerryLangborgBuie201713
HungerMartinelliBerryLangborgBuie8104

So what can we say?

1. Preston should only play alongside Martinelli. Too small otherwise. But Preston/Martinelli/Barnhizer has been quite solid.

2. Hunger with the 4 starters has been lights out. Hunger with Martinelli has been mediocre. Play Hunger with Buie/Barnhizer/Langborg/Berry.

3. Nicholson has only been really effective when he's out there with Martinelli/Barnhizer/Berry and Buie.
Those guys played effectively together last year.

Suggestions

Start with Nicholson/Martinelli/Barnhizer/Berry/Buie
Follow with Hunger/Barnhizer/Langborg/Berry/Buie
Figure out the best lineups to rest Barnhizer, Berry and Buie one at a time, with Martinelli and Langborg on the court.
Don't play anybody else unless we are way ahead or we have to.
 
My first objection is that your assertion that the best of the best of all NU players ever could not have beaten them is simply moronic and indefensibly defeatist.

It's really a pointless assertion to make either way. It says nothing about the team and everything about you.

I'm just as confident that the best NU players would win that game against those Illini on that day twenty times out of ten. Heck it wouldn't even need to be the best ever, it could be just the best eight NU players of the last 20 years. Total NU domination would result.

There seems to be some subtext for you needing to defend the coaching and so claiming no victory was possible. That's your baggage and I'm not interested in that at all, so save it for the folks who so easily bait you with it.

I wonder if film of a young Wooden playing exists...
You can feel feee to ignore me if you so choose. (Though my offer still stands to buy you a beer at any NU game I attend (which has included 4 NCAA games)).

My “subtext” for defending the coaching (including two reigning Coaches of the Year) is well-documented and well-proven in fact and results. Any one game blowout result is not largely a function of coaching. We could have maybe limited damage with trying other defenses, but 30 points was not going to be meaningfully mitigated based on the way UofI was playing. Any 5 person line-up can lose on a given day in D1 basketball - that’s also indisputable (within reason, of course). Also.- anyone with their eyes open can see that NU was and is undersized and less athletic and most often less talented in basketball than our competitors. We all know the reason(s) why and our records prove that for decades, with some notable exceptions.

I love our players and what they represent as the best in college athletics - at least what is left of it. I just don’t think (and believe I have seen very sufficient evidence) that poor coaching is the main fault when we get blown out. We move on and flush it as just another example of our reality. I don’t accept coaching mediocrity and there are reasons for moving on from coaches; I think most can agree that moving on from CCC before last year would have been a mistake. I’ll happily take my defense of him as my “baggage”.

(BTW - for you to suggest “total NU domination” in basketball in any context is also highly questionable at best (I can count on one hand the # of NBA players we’ve had in my 50+ year lifetime)).

I’ll always keep rooting for our players and coaches while knowing they face an inherently and unusually difficult challenge.
 
So this loss is on CCC I guess. We’ll tell him to scream louder in the rematch.
Nope. But I’m saying it is a black mark, just as the win v Purdue is a feather in his cap. You don’t get one without the other.

In this most recent game, his steadfast stubbornness re-emerges. As sd and you pin the defense to really be a product of ccc, then the ability to have and deploy a zone when man isn’t working is a big minus. Again, either ccc or Lowry gets the credit and the criticism for the D - can’t have it both ways.

On O, we inexplicably departed the 2 man lead in to O. Not a chase thing - was always Boo and MN. No successful creative evolution and whatever they are running isn’t working. Repeatedly. Blame the players? Fine, design something different that uses the other players or change the looks being created.

The responses of you and sd highlight my main beef - you pour accolades on ccc for any success but shield and absolve him for any failure. Reality doesn’t work that way.
 
Any one game blowout result is not largely a function of coaching. We could have maybe limited damage with trying other defenses, but 30 points was not going to be meaningfully mitigated based on the way UofI was playing. Any 5 person line-up can lose on a given day in D1 basketball - that’s also indisputable (within reason, of course).
then the purdue result also is not a product of the coaching 🤷‍♂️
 
then the purdue result also is not a product of the coaching 🤷‍♂️
Oh wait, I figured it out: ccc single handedly won the Purdue game and admissions, Gagg and schill caused the loss to UoI…😱
 
Nope. But I’m saying it is a black mark, just as the win v Purdue is a feather in his cap. You don’t get one without the other.

In this most recent game, his steadfast stubbornness re-emerges. As sd and you pin the defense to really be a product of ccc, then the ability to have and deploy a zone when man isn’t working is a big minus. Again, either ccc or Lowry gets the credit and the criticism for the D - can’t have it both ways.

On O, we inexplicably departed the 2 man lead in to O. Not a chase thing - was always Boo and MN. No successful creative evolution and whatever they are running isn’t working. Repeatedly. Blame the players? Fine, design something different that uses the other players or change the looks being created.

The responses of you and sd highlight my main beef - you pour accolades on ccc for any success but shield and absolve him for any failure. Reality doesn’t work that way.
This for once is close to accurate. We actually had posters claiming the reason for last years success was Lowry 🧙 and Gragg “forcing” CCC to bring in a defensive Coach. Now our defense blows most nights and there isn’t a peep about Lowry🧙 CCC has gone bananas and should try this or that. So I agree, can’t have it both ways in EITHER situation. How many times did you carry on last year about Lowry 🧙 as the reason we succeeded? If you can’t see it was the players last game, I can’t help you.

For the record, because I know you will twist this, I always believe the vast majority of games are won because of players. Get the right players and average Coaches will win. Get average players and good Coaches will struggle to win. Lowry is a good Coach but he doesn’t get out on the court anymore than CCC does. Neither score, rebound, pass or defend! I realize your schtick is to criticize CCC and PF, hammer all that support them, but if you are going to continue to attack, come up with silly monikers like PKK then at least be consistent in your arguments why they succeed or fail.
 
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then the purdue result also is not a product of the coaching 🤷‍♂️

I agree that people should not credit the coaches when we win and blame the players when we lose.
To defend PPD, he doesn't do that. Not many people do that. But it is perfectly fair to complain about Collins not really trying anything to change the flow of the game. We still wouldn't have won, but it looks better.

The game at Illinois was our first true road game. We played poorly and (in my opinion) got outcoached.
Unfortunately there appeared to be a talent gap and Illinois was much more cohesive and effective than we were. They played well and they're a good team, even without Shannon.

Watched Minnesota last night. They're much improved. Same with Nebraska. Michigan State is playing well. We need to get it together pretty quickly.
 
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This for once is close to accurate. We actually had posters claiming the reason for last years success was Lowry 🧙 and Gragg “forcing” CCC to bring in a defensive Coach. Now our defense blows most nights and there isn’t a peep about Lowry🧙 CCC has gone bananas and should try this or that. So I agree, can’t have it both ways in EITHER situation. How many times did you carry on last year about Lowry 🧙 as the reason we succeeded? If you can’t see it was the players last game, I can’t help you.

For the record, because I know you will twist this, I always believe the vast majority of games are won because of players. Get the right players and average Coaches will win. Get average players and good Coaches will struggle to win. Lowry is a good Coach but he doesn’t get out on the court anymore than CCC does. Neither score, rebound, pass or defend! I realize your schtick is to criticize CCC and PF, hammer all that support them, but if you are going to continue to attack, come up with silly monikers like PKK then at least be consistent in your arguments why they succeed or fail.
Let’s start really simple for you - who do you credit for the improved D last year? I’ll sit back and wait while you try to figure out a non responsive answer, as you typically do between attacks.
 
I agree that people should not credit the coaches when we win and blame the players when we lose.
To defend PPD, he doesn't do that. Not many people do that. But it is perfectly fair to complain about Collins not really trying anything to change the flow of the game. We still wouldn't have won, but it looks better.

The game at Illinois was our first true road game. We played poorly and (in my opinion) got outcoached.
Unfortunately there appeared to be a talent gap and Illinois was much more cohesive and effective than we were. They played well and they're a good team, even without Shannon.

Watched Minnesota last night. They're much improved. Same with Nebraska. Michigan State is paying well. We need to get it together pretty quickly.
Can’t say I watch a lot of non-NU games before March - but seems like every team we face jumps from man to zone a few times throughout the game. They don’t win every time - but it shows effort trying something else.

Anybody see any zone at all this year from NU? Pretty sure we are not undefeated and blew out every opponent. So whoever is in charge of systems (100% sure it is NOT a player) either did not prepare a zone defense or did not call for it … or called for it and a player mutiny of average players that beat Purdue twice chose to ignore the coaches directions AND the coach said ok - no timeout, no yanking out a player.

Who you got ppd? We talking mutiny here?
 
We were definitely small against Illinois. Seeing as how we have 3 centers and 5 other rotational players, it is possible to look at every real choice Collins has so far this season.

The lineups with Barnhizer at the 4 have done this so far...

CenterForwardGuardGuardGuardNUOppMinutes
NicholsonBarnhizerBerryLangborgBuie196183116
PrestonBarnhizerBerryLangborgBuie849547
HungerBarnhizerBerryLangborgBuie623028

With Martinelli at the 4 and Barnhizer at the 3, we have...

CenterForwardWingGuardGuardNUOppMinutes
NicholsonMartinelliBarnhizerBerryBuie431719
NicholsonMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBuie363524
NicholsonMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBerry11157
PrestonMartinelliBarnhizerBerryBuie282412
PrestonMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBuie251813
PrestonMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBerry191512
HungerMartinelliBarnhizerBerryBuie10159
HungerMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBuie201811
HungerMartinelliBarnhizerLangborgBerry181910

With Martinelli at the 4 and Barnhizer on the bench, we have...

CenterForwardGuardGuardGuardNUOppMinutes
NicholsonMartinelliBerryLangborgBuie13138
PrestonMartinelliBerryLangborgBuie201713
HungerMartinelliBerryLangborgBuie8104

So what can we say?

1. Preston should only play alongside Martinelli. Too small otherwise. But Preston/Martinelli/Barnhizer has been quite solid.

2. Hunger with the 4 starters has been lights out. Hunger with Martinelli has been mediocre. Play Hunger with Buie/Barnhizer/Langborg/Berry.

3. Nicholson has only been really effective when he's out there with Martinelli/Barnhizer/Berry and Buie.
Those guys played effectively together last year.

Suggestions

Start with Nicholson/Martinelli/Barnhizer/Berry/Buie
Follow with Hunger/Barnhizer/Langborg/Berry/Buie
Figure out the best lineups to rest Barnhizer, Berry and Buie one at a time, with Martinelli and Langborg on the court.
Don't play anybody else unless we are way ahead or we have to.
Interesting stuff. I have probably been watching more NBA than college ball these days (Celtics are having a good year), but one thing I notice in these games is that the NBA teams might also only have 8 or at most 9 man rotations, but what they tend to do is sub in chunks. They seem to have recognized that certain parts fit together well and play particular lineups. My sense (albeit this relies on my poor memory) is that Collins tends to sub one-at-time for certain players rather than bringing in 2 or 3 to create optimal lineups. He may not be unique in this for the college game as I don't pay attention to other teams, but I think you may be on to something in that he should get certain lineups on the floor together instead of worrying about individual players.
 
Let’s start really simple for you - who do you credit for the improved D last year? I’ll sit back and wait while you try to figure out a non responsive answer, as you typically do between attacks.
Man are you thick! It was primarily the players. What is so hard for you to understand? It boggles my mind that you were actually an athlete!
 
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