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+/- for the Pain in Champaign

Can’t say I watch a lot of non-NU games before March - but seems like every team we face jumps from man to zone a few times throughout the game. They don’t win every time - but it shows effort trying something else.

Anybody see any zone at all this year from NU? Pretty sure we are not undefeated and blew out every opponent. So whoever is in charge of systems (100% sure it is NOT a player) either did not prepare a zone defense or did not call for it … or called for it and a player mutiny of average players that beat Purdue twice chose to ignore the coaches directions AND the coach said ok - no timeout, no yanking out a player.

Who you got ppd? We talking mutiny here?
Yeah, a zone would have turned the game around! With your ridiculous approach to what should happen in a game you could literally blame the HC for every loss on the schedule. However, you trumpet your silly spin that gives no credit to the HC in a win. You continue your hypocrisy, and throwing out the bait by starting shit by calling me out. Here’s a hint Bob, a bunch of people become John Wooden or Bear Bryant when we lose. You are only amusing when we lose as you bring zero to the table when we win. All you do is hammer the Coaches. One trick pony as I have said many times!
 
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I agree that people should not credit the coaches when we win and blame the players when we lose.
To defend PPD, he doesn't do that. Not many people do that. But it is perfectly fair to complain about Collins not really trying anything to change the flow of the game. We still wouldn't have won, but it looks better.

The game at Illinois was our first true road game. We played poorly and (in my opinion) got outcoached.
Unfortunately there appeared to be a talent gap and Illinois was much more cohesive and effective than we were. They played well and they're a good team, even without Shannon.

Watched Minnesota last night. They're much improved. Same with Nebraska. Michigan State is playing well. We need to get it together pretty quickly.
Yes, when you are down you play different players or combinations. You can also, try things such as the zone that some people were calling for. That’s more than fair criticism. IMO, a zone would not help when you opponent was a fire shooting a moving the ball in their offense like they were the globetrotters.

My HS Coach had two sayings he used when you didn’t have athletic talent to compete. “you can’t make velvet out of pigskin” and “you can’t fight Mother Nature” ( that was actually in the press about a teammate). He is in the HOF. We were not big enough, strong enough to have a weak outing like this. There aren’t a lot of Coaching answers when you get overwhelmed. To beat a team like that, we have to be smarter and want it more. I don’t question the players effort, but they clearly were not aggressive at all. I agree with Bob’s comment on taking a hard foul while the game was getting away and we were getting bullied. Nothing dirty, just letting them know their shots will be contested. It likely would not have changed the outcome nor would playing a zone, but some may say we are trying something different. Haters gonna hate.
 
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Interesting stuff. I have probably been watching more NBA than college ball these days (Celtics are having a good year), but one thing I notice in these games is that the NBA teams might also only have 8 or at most 9 man rotations, but what they tend to do is sub in chunks. They seem to have recognized that certain parts fit together well and play particular lineups. My sense (albeit this relies on my poor memory) is that Collins tends to sub one-at-time for certain players rather than bringing in 2 or 3 to create optimal lineups. He may not be unique in this for the college game as I don't pay attention to other teams, but I think you may be on to something in that he should get certain lineups on the floor together instead of worrying about individual players.
Ha - I rarely watch the NBA! But I watch parts of too many versions of Wyoming versus Utah State.
Obviously my tendency (and the human tendency) is to try to oversimplify things. I don't want to be too critical of Coach Collins because he's trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. (Langborg and Audige are very different players, for example) Hunger and Preston have strengths and weaknesses. And different lineups work better against different opponents. So the data set is too limited to be adamant about much right now, although if you predict success or failure and the data then supports it, thats useful.

But... the lineup results are not random and chemistry is a real factor in the success of most teams. Collins is currently looking at an unusual 8 man rotation in that 3 of the guys (so far) play one position (Hunger, Nicholson, Preston). That leaves 5 guys to play 160 minutes. 32 minutes each. That is okay for one game, two games, but seems like a big ask for an entire Big Ten season. Just looking at it logically, if Clayton and Mullins aren't ready to provide decent minutes, the only other choice is Hunger getting minutes at the 4.

In fact, had we tried that against Illinois, its very likely that Underwood would have put Dainja into the game at center. (He played 4 minutes) Maybe that changes things. The point is, a coach needs lineup options and he needs to know what has worked and what hasn't.
 
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Ultiimately it's the players. They have to go out and perform.

There are 5 players. MN, Nick, Brooks, Ty and Boo who were here last year. They should be able to run any offense, play any defense and compete hard every night. They should be the leaders and held accountable. Hunger should be included as well

The freshmen, Mullins, Lanborg and Preston not be ready for the season is on the coaches for not preparing them during the summer and not being able to understand how to use them to the best of their abilities in games.
 
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Playing zone a bit might have helped mitigate their offense, but I'm not convinced the cats have practiced it enough as a team to actually be effective with it, so it would likely have just been a different unsuccessful defensive posture.

We play them again this year so I'll look forward to how the coaches scheme to beat them next time.

Langborg, Mullins, and Preston aren't freshmen. Perhaps you just meant new to the team.
 
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Man are you thick! It was primarily the players. What is so hard for you to understand? It boggles my mind that you were actually an athlete!
I am stunned that played any organized ball. You are completely wrong. Completely different defensive systems were implemented before last season. To explain in a simple way for you, remember the ole BC 1-3-1 where he utilized the PG at the low three? Well, absent an NBA all star PG playing among college kids, that D would never work long run. It’s a gimmicky D good for a brief runs.

The primary D last year allowed man with absolute switch and a double on the first pass into a certain radius of the basketball with rotation into the lanes. Works best when other O stands around or floats to predictable places. Les effective when the others cut and the trapped player has decent vision and pass skills.

But it’s fun chatting w you ppd - your bravado coupled with silly insults make me giggle.

TLDR - a coach made last year’s D effective and different. Now which coach do you credit?
 
Yeah, a zone would have turned the game around! With your ridiculous approach to what should happen in a game you could literally blame the HC for every loss on the schedule. However, you trumpet your silly spin that gives no credit to the HC in a win. You continue your hypocrisy, and throwing out the bait by starting shit by calling me out. Here’s a hint Bob, a bunch of people become John Wooden or Bear Bryant when we lose. You are only amusing when we lose as you bring zero to the table when we win. All you do is hammer the Coaches. One trick pony as I have said many times!
You are typical of the day - misstate me then lie. I oppose what you claim I do. Either coach gets credit and blame or neither. You can’t cherry pick. But thanks for misleading anyone silly enough to read your post in a bubble.

Now, which is it? Blame and credit or no blame and no credit? Bet you won’t answer! It’s admissions to blame and ccc to credit.
 
Yes, when you are down you play different players or combinations. You can also, try things such as the zone that some people were calling for. That’s more than fair criticism. IMO, a zone would not help when you opponent was a fire shooting a moving the ball in their offense like they were the globetrotters.

My HS Coach had two sayings he used when you didn’t have athletic talent to compete. “you can’t make velvet out of pigskin” and “you can’t fight Mother Nature” ( that was actually in the press about a teammate). He is in the HOF. We were not big enough, strong enough to have a weak outing like this. There aren’t a lot of Coaching answers when you get overwhelmed. To beat a team like that, we have to be smarter and want it more. I don’t question the players effort, but they clearly were not aggressive at all. I agree with Bob’s comment on taking a hard foul while the game was getting away and we were getting bullied. Nothing dirty, just letting them know their shots will be contested. It likely would not have changed the outcome nor would playing a zone, but some may say we are trying something different. Haters gonna hate.
Here comes Illinois to the National Championship!
 
Ultiimately it's the players. They have to go out and perform.

There are 5 players. MN, Nick, Brooks, Ty and Boo who were here last year. They should be able to run any offense, play any defense and compete hard every night. They should be the leaders and held accountable. Hunger should be included as well

The freshmen, Mullins, Lanborg and Preston not be ready for the season is on the coaches for not preparing them during the summer and not being able to understand how to use them to the best of their abilities in games.
I agree with you in general. But its pretty clear that Collins and the assistants thought Clayton was ready to contribute. In his minutes, we got outscored 151-126. Collins changed course, which honestly surprised me, but was probably the right decision at this point.

Nicholson coming into the season heavy was not good. Thats on him. However it boggles my mind that we couldn't add anything offensively in the low post. We don't try in games, which suggests to me that we didn't make it a focal point during the offseason. "Set Pick on guy guarding Nicholson, throw lob" is not difficult. He doesn't even know how to post up! Other teams do that stuff with ease. And practically no team wins when their 5 is not a threat to score.
 
remember the ole BC 1-3-1 where he utilized the PG at the low three? Well, absent an NBA all star PG playing among college kids, that D would never work long run. It’s a gimmicky D good for a brief runs.
tbh, I thought the 1-3-1 was a decent D, recognizing that with Carmody's teams the fact that Juice was 5'8" was a major flaw. To your point, I wouldn't want to run it exclusively, but it would be a great alternate look to break out now and then to stymie an opponent.
 
Ultiimately it's the players. They have to go out and perform.

There are 5 players. MN, Nick, Brooks, Ty and Boo who were here last year. They should be able to run any offense, play any defense and compete hard every night. They should be the leaders and held accountable. Hunger should be included as well

The freshmen, Mullins, Lanborg and Preston not be ready for the season is on the coaches for not preparing them during the summer and not being able to understand how to use them to the best of their abilities in games.
I think Lanborg has been solid. About what I expected, maybe even a little better. Preston is what he is too. Can occasionally give you a little offense, banger type. Mullins hasn’t got any run since he had that bad start. Doesn’t look like a contributor this season. The Freshman were going to be bigger projects than normal with the hot seat cloud hovering over the staff last season.

I think the team has been pretty good with a couple terrible games. So there is consistency issues and the Coaches need to insure we don’t lay those eggs any more. We are going to lose games, but last game we just weren’t aggressive at all. Got punched in the mouth to start and never got back into the fight. That’s disappointing and there were a myriad of reasons where everyone needs to look in the mirror.
 
But... the lineup results are not random and chemistry is a real factor in the success of most teams. Collins is currently looking at an unusual 8 man rotation in that 3 of the guys (so far) play one position (Hunger, Nicholson, Preston). That leaves 5 guys to play 160 minutes. 32 minutes each. That is okay for one game, two games, but seems like a big ask for an entire Big Ten season. Just looking at it logically, if Clayton and Mullins aren't ready to provide decent minutes, the only other choice is Hunger getting minutes at the 4.
Yep... this is a key point and one I made in too in another thread. We have 5 guys for 4 positions each game. That just doesn't seem sustainable to me no matter how young and in shape they are.

I am imagining that CCC is so worried that our 5s are all so foul prone that he needs to rotate all three through that position to keep people from fouling out.

While the season isn't over and this team may improve, it sure feels today like this team is not quite at the level as last year. I think these things may be true...

1. Audige to Langborg is a huge drop off. Langborg is a better shooter, but not nearly the defender or rebounder that Chase was. Langborg also lacks that killer instinct and swagger Chase had that I really believe the rest of the team fed off. No one has really replaced that in the same way. Berry has it at times, but his game is so up and down and his swagger follows. Chase didn't care if he was having a great game or bricking every shot. He still had that attitude and belief.

2. Beran (though I know he bugged you) was more important than we might have imagined. He provided some size at the 4 we don't have now. I am sure this affects how teams attack our defense.

3. Matt Nicholson is a worse player this year than last year. We all were so encouraged by his improvement last year and I think we all hoped he would take another big leap this year. But he has clearly regressed. Not sure if it's injury related or something personal or he just has lost a little of his love for the game. But it is clearly hurting us this year.

4. Not a huge point, but I'm starting to think that Verhoeven was a little bit more of a contributor than Preston. You may have numbers to disprove this, but I just don't find Blake helping us that much except for a couple games.
 
I am stunned that played any organized ball. You are completely wrong. Completely different defensive systems were implemented before last season. To explain in a simple way for you, remember the ole BC 1-3-1 where he utilized the PG at the low three? Well, absent an NBA all star PG playing among college kids, that D would never work long run. It’s a gimmicky D good for a brief runs.

The primary D last year allowed man with absolute switch and a double on the first pass into a certain radius of the basketball with rotation into the lanes. Works best when other O stands around or floats to predictable places. Les effective when the others cut and the trapped player has decent vision and pass skills.

But it’s fun chatting w you ppd - your bravado coupled with silly insults make me giggle.

TLDR - a coach made last year’s D effective and different. Now which coach do you credit?
Flat out no. It was an extremely similar concept to previous years under Collins. He’s a man first coach preference wise but didn’t always have the players to run it (in his opinion at NU). He’s out of the Knight tree (by 2 degrees) who was famously not a fan of zone.

The two biggest differences were a good defensive post presence in MN and an elite defender in Audige being healthy. Having an anchor down low, who could hold his position unlike Nance, and could provide excellent help D unlike Young, drastically opened things up for the guards to be more aggressive in passing lanes and on ball defense within NU’s system.

Then add your second best player, who’s a borderline NBA player and arguably best perimeter in the nation, being completely bought into defense and you have a strong culture setter. Audige wasn’t a stopper in NU’s system do to the amount of switching, but ball handlers better keep a tight grip on the ball and double check passing lanes when he is on the court. Audige was long for his size and incredibly quick. He read the defensive end of the court very well. He covered up a lot lapses from his teammates with his quickness and prevented some with his communication on D.

Those were easily the two biggest changes. When Pardon was the 5 and you had Lindsey, Law, and Lumpkin switching the 2-4, you saw a similar D conceptually. There’s some small differences due to strengths of players. Ex. Height of Beran and Nicholson on post doubles vs core strength and quick hops of Pardon allowing him to anchor with Lumpkin defensive iq allowing him to double just the right times but not always.

What Lowry added is a defense first coach who is strong at teaching fundamentals. This helps build the culture and buy in and can help really raise the floor of each player defensively due to strong fundamentals. You hear it from the players singing his praises. He teaches positioning and placement extremely well. Scheme hasn’t changed that much. Just because it’s working doesn’t mean the scheme changed. It can just flat out be executing better and having the players to run it effectively.

As far point two goes…. This D is set up to make it extremely difficult to score inside. Makes sense and the closer you are to the basket the easier it should be to score. If you switch well and are timely with it then the only open looks you should be getting consistently off this defense are 3’s off of difficult cross court passes. The D was not run well against Illinois.

The loss against Illinois was frankly a breakdown of the whole team and Illinois being red hot. Blame to everyone imo. You aren’t going to stop a team that got that hot that early but when you get punched in the mouth like that you gotta hit back to have a chance. NU did not hit back and got hammered. They needed to hit back hard and just hold on until Illinois cooled off instead of letting the game snowball out of control. I don’t think any amount of tactics or rotation gimmicks would have changed this game. Players didn’t show up and that’s on them. It’s on the coaches for not getting the players ready to play hard against a top ten opponent. Blame all around.
 
Flat out no. It was an extremely similar concept to previous years under Collins. He’s a man first coach preference wise but didn’t always have the players to run it (in his opinion at NU). He’s out of the Knight tree (by 2 degrees) who was famously not a fan of zone.

The two biggest differences were a good defensive post presence in MN and an elite defender in Audige being healthy. Having an anchor down low, who could hold his position unlike Nance, and could provide excellent help D unlike Young, drastically opened things up for the guards to be more aggressive in passing lanes and on ball defense within NU’s system.

Then add your second best player, who’s a borderline NBA player and arguably best perimeter in the nation, being completely bought into defense and you have a strong culture setter. Audige wasn’t a stopper in NU’s system do to the amount of switching, but ball handlers better keep a tight grip on the ball and double check passing lanes when he is on the court. Audige was long for his size and incredibly quick. He read the defensive end of the court very well. He covered up a lot lapses from his teammates with his quickness and prevented some with his communication on D.

Those were easily the two biggest changes. When Pardon was the 5 and you had Lindsey, Law, and Lumpkin switching the 2-4, you saw a similar D conceptually. There’s some small differences due to strengths of players. Ex. Height of Beran and Nicholson on post doubles vs core strength and quick hops of Pardon allowing him to anchor with Lumpkin defensive iq allowing him to double just the right times but not always.

What Lowry added is a defense first coach who is strong at teaching fundamentals. This helps build the culture and buy in and can help really raise the floor of each player defensively due to strong fundamentals. You hear it from the players singing his praises. He teaches positioning and placement extremely well. Scheme hasn’t changed that much. Just because it’s working doesn’t mean the scheme changed. It can just flat out be executing better and having the players to run it effectively.

As far point two goes…. This D is set up to make it extremely difficult to score inside. Makes sense and the closer you are to the basket the easier it should be to score. If you switch well and are timely with it then the only open looks you should be getting consistently off this defense are 3’s off of difficult cross court passes. The D was not run well against Illinois.

The loss against Illinois was frankly a breakdown of the whole team and Illinois being red hot. Blame to everyone imo. You aren’t going to stop a team that got that hot that early but when you get punched in the mouth like that you gotta hit back to have a chance. NU did not hit back and got hammered. They needed to hit back hard and just hold on until Illinois cooled off instead of letting the game snowball out of control. I don’t think any amount of tactics or rotation gimmicks would have changed this game. Players didn’t show up and that’s on them. It’s on the coaches for not getting the players ready to play hard against a top ten opponent. Blame all around.
First, I think you are wrong but not going to repeat my post above.

Second, can you point me to one game this season that you saw two distinct different defensive systems employed in a single game? I’ll wait while you desperately review.
 
First, I think you are wrong but not going to repeat my post above.

Second, can you point me to one game this season that you saw two distinct different defensive systems employed in a single game? I’ll wait while you desperately review.
To the first point- rewatch the Wisconsin upset from Collin’s 1st season, rewatch the Wisconsin win from the 1st tournament season, and rewatch a win from last season and you’ll see the defense scheme run well. It’s man-man with a heavy emphasis on switching and varying levels of post doubling.

To the second point- Huh? How is that applicable to anything I said? Please reread what I posted.
 
I don't understand why NU does not play at a faster tempo at times to generate more shots, I think it would help to get Mullins on the floor playing up tempo.

Boo and Berry getting up and down the court would generate easier shots Ryan and Brooks as well. Boo is much better jn the open floor,
Is this true? Even last year, I think NU was prone to blowing open-court situations. Too many passes or a missed wing three or, most frequently, inadequate spacing.

But maybe last year it finally worked out. Not sure. I do remember Chase’s dunk against Purdue, but that was a 1 v 0 situation.
 
Is this true? Even last year, I think NU was prone to blowing open-court situations. Too many passes or a missed wing three or, most frequently, inadequate spacing.

But maybe last year it finally worked out. Not sure. I do remember Chase’s dunk against Purdue, but that was a 1 v 0 situation.
It's a mindset. You have to teach it and preach it.

Several times this year an opponents player has fallen and NU would have had an advantage, but slowed the ball down and walked up the court. Can't recall a team that constantly gets the ball over half court with 21 or 22 seconds in the shot clock with no pressure.
 
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To the first point- rewatch the Wisconsin upset from Collin’s 1st season, rewatch the Wisconsin win from the 1st tournament season, and rewatch a win from last season and you’ll see the defense scheme run well. It’s man-man with a heavy emphasis on switching and varying levels of post doubling.

To the second point- Huh? How is that applicable to anything I said? Please reread what I posted.
Because what said had little to do with what I wrote. A good coach has multiple systems to deploy throughout a game base upon success, personnel, etc. Want me to show you based upon our opponents? You must be conceding that CCC is a one system guy?
 
Because what said had little to do with what I wrote. A good coach has multiple systems to deploy throughout a game base upon success, personnel, etc. Want me to show you based upon our opponents? You must be conceding that CCC is a one system guy?

Point one- I was responding to what you typed. What I responded to is literally bolded in my original post. It refutes your TLDR. So it had a lot to do with what you wrote.

Point two- Bob Knight was a one system guy. (Man defense) Coach K ran a primarily motion offense. Phil Jackson was a one system guy (Triangle). You do know pretty much every successful coach runs one main preferred system and then has little wrinkles within the system and some changes based on personel? Collins has added zone wrinkles before due to personnel but prefers man. He also has different wrinkles in the man-man defense within the system year to year. A good coach wins games and gets the most out of his players. This feels like your moving the goalposts as I only addressed point 1 in my original post. I also broke down how NU’s current defense is supposed to work.
 
Point one- I was responding to what you typed. What I responded to is literally bolded in my original post. It refutes your TLDR. So it had a lot to do with what you wrote.

Point two- Bob Knight was a one system guy. (Man defense) Coach K ran a primarily motion offense. Phil Jackson was a one system guy (Triangle). You do know pretty much every successful coach runs one main preferred system and then has little wrinkles within the system and some changes based on personel? Collins has added zone wrinkles before due to personnel but prefers man. He also has different wrinkles in the man-man defense within the system year to year. A good coach wins games and gets the most out of his players. This feels like your moving the goalposts as I only addressed point 1 in my original post. I also broke down how NU’s current defense is supposed to work.
For starters, the Phil jackson reference was humor - something severely lacking in this board. Two - both knight and coach k ran multiple Ds every season. Tell me I am wrong and I’ll do the research, pull up a game from each as long as you promise that if I’m right, you’ll admit and say you were wrong. Bet?

Go back shrink into your hole now.
 
. It refutes your TLDR. So it had a lot to do with what you wrote.
.
and thanks for subtly confirming your game. PPD plays the Mischaracterization game, sd closes his eyes and refuses to see the world and you cherry pick certain points removed from the full context.

Who’s next?
 
and thanks for subtly confirming your game. PPD plays the Mischaracterization game, sd closes his eyes and refuses to see the world and you cherry pick certain points removed from the full context.

Who’s next?
When Erik Spoelstra, Mike Brown, Luke Walton, Tyronn Lue, etc. get inducted into the hall of fame for making Lebron the player he is, I might start agreeing with you more.

Btw - UofI has 4 points in 7 minutes against Purdue. Fire Underwoood!
 
Because what said had little to do with what I wrote. A good coach has multiple systems to deploy throughout a game base upon success, personnel, etc. Want me to show you based upon our opponents? You must be conceding that CCC is a one system guy?

For starters, the Phil jackson reference was humor - something severely lacking in this board. Two - both knight and coach k ran multiple Ds every season. Tell me I am wrong and I’ll do the research, pull up a game from each as long as you promise that if I’m right, you’ll admit and say you were wrong. Bet?

Go back shrink into your hole now.
The first time Bobby Knight ran a zone was in 1986. And he ran it to start the game. Please do the research.

If you ever want to be taken seriously, post something insightful after a win about something Collins did well. If I missed a post after the Purdue game, my apologies. I can’t understand most of your posts (when I get sucked into reading them) but I know that they will be critical of Collins. It’s more tiresome than posts always defending him. The internet was made for you.
 
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The first time Bobby Knight ran a zone was in 1986. And he ran it to start the game. Please do the research.

If you ever want to be taken seriously, post something insightful after a win about something Collins did well. If I missed a post after the Purdue game, my apologies. I can’t understand most of your posts (when I get sucked into reading them) but I know that they will be critical of Collins. It’s more tiresome than posts always defending him. The internet was made for you.
Ignore is your friend. Taken seriously? Get over yourself, it’s a message board. You can believe whatever you want to believe. I have said good things about ccc but I don’t oogle him. hey SD - let know when invite ccc to any HOF.

sorry your boy is not perfect - it’s simply true he is not. And if questioning decisions after losses hurts your delicacies, find a safe space.

Quite frankly I have been positive about the team all season. Despite the loss to a grade school team, getting beat by a good UoI program is not the end of the world. But as others have noted, we were out coached.

And for fun, through the rest of the B1G, I’ll point out different systems employed against us. So might as well put me on ignore because it’s going to happen a lot - especially to stop a run. Mark my meaningless, not taken serious words.

Who’s next?
 
The first time Bobby Knight ran a zone was in 1986. And he ran it to start the game. Please do the research.

If you ever want to be taken seriously, post something insightful after a win about something Collins did well. If I missed a post after the Purdue game, my apologies. I can’t understand most of your posts (when I get sucked into reading them) but I know that they will be critical of Collins. It’s more tiresome than posts always defending him. The internet was made for you.
And you do realize there are more defensive schemes than simple zone and man switch I hope. We only employ the latter. There are a host of zone, man and hybrid options. So what type of man D are saying knight stuck to religiously his career? And someone says the wonder how I ever played organized ball…
 
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