This is why I worry about next year. The class may be good, but they’ll all be frosh. Hell, Rutgers has struggled this year and their class was MUCH better than ours is next year.
Game Thread: Northwestern vs. Washington
- Thread starter mshelton33
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Clayton earned those minutes. Windam played OK but Clayton played much better
Clayton looks like he can assume PG #1 and Mullins deserves a starting spot with Windham as backup to the two of them. Smith ads depth, Martinelli will be big. Jello will hopefully be ready to step up, I see them going for a BIG in porta because it is hard to see Hunger as more than a backup. Then hopefully one of the Frosh is ready (my guess Singleton with Gill and West getting some time) Bigs take longer so I don't necessarily see much there.
Team will have more depth but harder to see the O for next year
My guess:
* They decided to redshirt Clayton to let him develop in practice and preserve eligibility and they didn’t think they’d need to use him this year.
* Clayton goes on to outplay other guys in practice but CC wanted to still honor the redshirt.
* Team needs a PG now, Clayton volunteers to burn the shirt for the last 8 games, possibly as a way to audition to be PG1 going into next season.
I thought he was fine tonight, for a guy who hasn’t played in a real game since last year (and was pretty actively bad when he did play) he was shockingly competent even though he did get lost on occasion at both ends.
Thanks for your optimism. It’s looking pretty dark for the rest of the season, but it’ll be fun to just kick back on the comfy schmomfy and watch it play out.
I cannot get behind Clayton getting major minutes. I saw enough last year. I want to see the freshman play some ball. This season is over from a postseason standpoint. I want to support the guys that have been battling all year and watch the future of the team. My impression was that clayton was not going to be here next year. Build some chemistry with Martinelli and the freshmen, get them excited about returning next year.
The kid just gave up a year of eligibility for his teammates and NU. He sure as shit isn’t going to be sitting in the bench now. He’ll get the majority of the minutes at PG. instead of judging him on last year, people should be complimenting his unselfishness. It’s no sure thing that KJ beats him out next year. Likely yes, but Clayton has a chance to show he deserves minutes and I fail to understand why he should defer to a freshman that hasn’t showed much more!
Agree. Next year is a rebuild. From what we've seen, I don't see Clayton as a starter on a future tournament-level team, which is how where the basketball bar should be set. Also, I think Martinelli is probably at his peak. He's going to average 20 pts this season, he's not going to 24 next season and unless we get someone pretty remarkable in the portal, he's going to see the same defensive attention he's getting now which has brought down his shooting % as his world has gotten more crowded. Portal needed.
I just assumed clayton was gonna transfer next year. I would feel very bad about next year if he is getting minutes. I’ll continue to watch but I’ve never been so confused about personnel decision on the cats.
We were left with no PG on the roster other than KJ. We need depth to win. No one on the entire team wants to just give up. Clayton offered to step in and help the team and he’s playing well in practice (easy to assume based on last night’s performance). What is so hard to understand?
That question has been asked and answered since we became aware of Clayton starting. People just want to hammer the deficiencies of the kid and see other players out there. Not a single one of them attend practice, so it is based on last year and they aren’t changing their mind.
Correct. Have our current freshman played lights out? No. But I see some potential in them. I didn’t see that in Clayton last year.
Clayton’s likely never going to take us to the tourney as the starting PG; that’s pretty obvious. (We can then all debate if KJ can, but my sense is also no). That doesn’t mean Clayton can’t help provide needed depth.
The key is the phrase last year.
Look, I am saying Clayton will turn the year around. Maybe he is no more than a third string guard for us. A Ryan Greer lite. I am not even saying he has more long term potential than KJ. However, I am saying, and I know I won’t convince you of this, that the Frosh are struggling mightily and have been for the last month. They have had plenty of opportunities. Clayton played a better game last night than either of them have played in a month. CCC and Lowrey have forgotten more about basketball than any of us know! Yet, they have Clayton out there for nearly twice the minutes of KJ. I suspect if it was a blow out the Frosh would play more.
This year is not last year. He has clearly put in the time and effort. What do you see when you look at KJ this year? To me it is where Clayton was last year. Just trying to find his way. At this point it looks like Clayton deserves the minutes. KJ will get his opportunities but for now Clayton is more mature and ready to handle the situation
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KJ to me has more upside. This year for postseason purposes is over. Develop the players that will give you best chance for success moving forward. When you are comparing a player to Ryan Greer, it just is not the discussion I want to have. I’d rather watched KJ struggle in the final games than see Clayton do a borderline serviceable job.
In KenPom, Windham’s offensive rating is 91.0 and his effective FG % is 38.8. Last year, Clayton’s offensive rating was 48.7 and his eFG% was 19.6.
Clayton’s numbers last year were horrible. But we are not comparing last year’s Clayton to this year’s Windham. It’s this year’s Clayton to this year’s Windham. They need Clayton playing now and I’m glad he decided to burn his shirt.
Clayton’s numbers last year were horrible. But we are not comparing last year’s Clayton to this year’s Windham. It’s this year’s Clayton to this year’s Windham. They need Clayton playing now and I’m glad he decided to burn his shirt.
I understand your confusion 100%.
Just want to voice my support.
What is happening doesn't make a lot of sense.
You'll have a few people jumping on you and saying exaggerated, inaccurate things with perfect hindsight, over and over.
Don't worry about it.
You are on the right side of this.
To recap - Leach got hurt with 5 minutes to go against USC, leading by 10 I think. . Collins replaced Leach with deep reserve Blake Smith (instead of Windham) for 5 minutes and we almost lost the game. Defenders declared that Smith was the right choice, Windham was not to be trusted. Last night, we activated the redshirt Jordan Clayton and gave him the start over both Smith and Windham. Windham played, but Smith didn't play at all.
That sequence of decisions is not logical.
You don’t decide to burn a shirt mid-game!
There were 3 days of travel and practice in between. The common denominator was/is “can we roll with Windham right now?” In the USC game, the answer was Smith.
Then with 72 hours to practice and figure things out in the post-Leach reality, a different plan for the rest of the year emerged. Play Clayton.
Clayton improved in practice and agreed to play. We have to assume the team is better for it.
I find it very strange that Clayton was redshirted, then was "the answer" when Leach went down.
Leach struggled against pressure all year.
We needed an alternative or two all year. Barnhizer is a lot more effective off the ball.
Several of us were worried about Leach at the point and the lack of ballhandling coming into the season.
So why redshirt Clayton in the first place? I just thought he had been banished, although that didn't make sense to me either.
So he is on the right side of the argument, because YOU said so? I think you actually read others responses, but not sure you even recognize there could be a counterpoint. We know you disagree. You are so dug in with your opinions it would take a nuclear bomb to budge you.
CCC and staff have forgotten more basketball than both of us know combined. They have over a century of combined playing/coaching. They are not fans they a professionals. The staff sees these guys every day in practice. I just don’t understand why you question rotations, playing time after every game like you somehow see these things they don’t see. It’s relentless, and it’s you right I guess, but don’t blow smoke like you don’t consistently blast CCC, because that isn’t true.
It is logical. At that stage of the USC game coaching staff was trying to manage the game and needed D and at this point Windom's D is just not there. Also needed the maturity that Windom has not yet developed. Clayton had not burned his shirt and was not available.
Last night we again needed a PG and maturity, Clayton gave up his shirt (and for that you need to give him opportunity) and showed that he was the right person for the situation. With Clayton having the majority of the minutes we had a chance, With Windom, in that role (with no Clayton), we did not. That said we were also replacing O and Windhom probably gives a better shot at that than Smith (but he is behind Clayto) so in this situation he would be in front of Smith
A whole lot of conclusions based on one game by Clayton. Where he shot 2-7. If he’s as ready as some want to imply than it’s a bit puzzling why he was red shirting.
Because It was likely Clayton's decision to try to preserve a year of eligibility when we brought in Leach just like it was his decision to give up the shirt when Leach went down. He was not attempting to keep that year of eligibility because he was behind Windham, but because it was apparrent that Leach would be getting all the minutes. It wasn't because Clayton had been banished. It was because there were not many available minutes.
Leach struggled at the beginning of the year but as the season went and he got used to the speed at this level he got much better at handling the pressure
I never compared Clayton to Greer. If I were it would be to say he has a lot more upside, Even without playing time this year, Clayton looks to be significantly ahead of Windham at this point.
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There were not gonna be a lot of minutes available to play with Leach here so he chose to RS. It was likely a personal decision based on the circumstances
I think some of you are so used to lack of depth on past NU squads that you forget that having one or two other PGs coming off the bench is what most good teams have. We're not sure if we'll have any going into next year. Clayton is in the mix just as much as anybody else, so why not audition him now. We've seen KJ and his potential, but he is not head and shoulders above anybody at this point. Let's see if Clayton has improved enough to be in the mix for next year either as the starter or a backup. We need multiple ball handlers, including some coming off the bench. Why give up on him?
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I retract my post. I was wrong. Looing back, we have now played 11 games decided by 5 or fewer points. In my mind last night, frustrated with the loss and addled by advancing age, I thought we were horrible in those games. Upon checking our results, however, I realize we are 5-6 in those games. My mistake. Still sucks to give up that 9-0 run down the stretch, but it is not the recurring theme that I thought it was.
I think all the crowing about CCC after the game is dumb - the team just has no ball handlers and is forced to run the offense through guys who are really young and frankly not ready, to say nothing of a lack of overall scorers - but I still find this Clayton decision mind boggling. Okay, a guy volunteers to burn the shirt, and you let him? I feel there must be other information we don't know, like his intent to transfer, that he's no longer part of CCC's plans, etc. Otherwise it's insane to burn the shirt for 8 dead end games.
Some guys just don’t want to spend 5 or more years in college before they got on with their life. I can assure you he wasn’t pressured into dropping the redshirt. He basically gets an eight game audition to show he belongs. If he fails miserably he eventually drops a level. Red shirting is stupid nowadays. He should have seen a few minutes during the season.
And if he does want to transfer, he actually has some current and viable evidence on tape to use elsewhere.
I encouraged Davidgold because I could see that you guys were ganging up on him to try to diminish what he believed.
Thats all.
Unfortunately it happens a lot around here.
Multiple people start going after the messenger in a coordinated manner.
There's often a facet of attacking the person, not discussing the merits of their posts.
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