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Grad transfer market

charcat

charcat

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2006
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When is the key time of year for the grad transfer market ? We all have a sense for the regular recruiting season, but I don’t have a sense of when coaches get in on potential grad transfers and who is in the mix. I assume it is a much shorter window with players having a more decisive narrowing of who the are interested in.
 
Justin Pierce looks to be a grad transfer from William and Mary, NU has already contacted him. He went to Glenbard West

 
"Surpassed former Northwestern All-American and 2012 Big Ten scoring leader John Shurna’s school record."
 
I’ve heard that the family wanted Collins to recruit him out of high school. He did not. Family not happy. Won’t get a second chance.

Now that source could be completely wrong, and maybe the school ties will prevail.
 
The one and done transfer market should be used to find backup players, not starters. What do we have to show for playing Taylor as a starter all year? He is gone. We have to recognize we are rebuilding and we need to give Kopp , Nance, Young, Greer and our incoming freshmen as many quality minutes as possible. If a 5th year transfer would make us a tournament team it might be different. We are a long way from there and we have to build around Gaines and the other under classmen. Benson and Turner will start but I would rather see minutes spread among the youngsters rather than trying to bring in 2-3 5th year starters.who will be gone after one year.
 
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I'd rather see NU go after players out of HS and develop them rather than get two heavily involved with the transfer game. Transfers often don't become the "quick fix" coaches are looking for and even if they're relatively effective it's a very short-term solution. It's fine to grab an occasional transfer, but I'd hate to see 2-3 a year become a habit.
 
purplejustice said:
The one and done transfer market should be used to find backup players, not starters. What do we have to show for playing Taylor as a starter all year? He is gone. We have to recognize we are rebuilding and we need to give Kopp , Nance, Young, Greer and our incoming freshmen as many quality minutes as possible. If a 5th year transfer would make us a tournament team it might be different. We are a long way from there and we have to build around Gaines and the other under classmen. Benson and Turner will start but I would rather see minutes spread among the youngsters rather than trying to bring in 2-3 5th year starters.who will be gone after one year.
Click to expand...
We are in transition/rebuilding right now. If there is a quality point guard transfer, like Mike Mooney last year, I would take him in a second. Ideally you don't need transfers, but when you do need them, why not take them if they are good enough. People are down on Taylor, but if we had a point guard this past year, his stats might have been totally different.
 
purplejustice said:
The one and done transfer market should be used to find backup players, not starters.
Click to expand...
Maybe.

But Jared Swopshire was a solid starter until he got injured.

You never know what you'll get. Not like NU actually has a choice this season. They need to get enough players just to hold a practice.
 
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pawildcat said:
I'd rather see NU go after players out of HS and develop them rather than get two heavily involved with the transfer game. Transfers often don't become the "quick fix" coaches are looking for and even if they're relatively effective it's a very short-term solution. It's fine to grab an occasional transfer, but I'd hate to see 2-3 a year become a habit.
Click to expand...

Then maybe NU should give Collins a bit more leeway on academic standards. As has been said hundreds of times, there’s an incredibly small pool of incoming freshmen who 1) have the grades to pass admissions and 2) are good enough to play in the Big Ten.
 
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freewillie07 said:
Then maybe NU should give Collins a bit more leeway on academic standards. As has been said hundreds of times, there’s an incredibly small pool of incoming freshmen who 1) have the grades to pass admissions and 2) are good enough to play in the Big Ten.
Click to expand...

He supposedly has recruited three four-star players in the past couple of classes and has had many more visit. They are already getting a significant break in admissions standards over the average student. You're telling me he can't get 4-5 good players in the entire country that can meet NU standards and play basketball? Sorry, I'm not buying that at all.
 
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pawildcat said:
He supposedly has recruited three four-star players in the past couple of classes and has had many more visit. They are already getting a significant break in admissions standards over the average student. You're telling me he can't get 4-5 good players in the entire country that can meet NU standards and play basketball? Sorry, I'm not buying that at all.
Click to expand...

The list of kids who want to go to NU and play basketball for Collins but are denied admissions well into the process is longer than those who accept.

The list of kids who could qualify academically with the right coursework but choose to not pursue that because what they are doing gets them into virtually every other school is longer that those who do qualify.

In the class of 2019 there are 130 4* players.

Perhaps 20-25 could gain admissions to NU. Percentage-wise, far fewer in the top 50.

Each high academic 4* players represents to a coach quality basketball + no academic headaches. Every Big Ten team, every upper major team pursues those 20-25 players along with NU.

Versus every other school, NU has arguably the paltriest basketball history.

Good basketball players with high academics have a myriad of choices and there are many, many places where they can check the good academics box.

That Collins gets as many of these kids as he does is remarkable. Letting a couple more in each year would in no way impact NU's academic standing or reputation as many schools like Stanford, Duke, Harvard and Vanderbilt have discovered.
 
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pawildcat said:
He supposedly has recruited three four-star players in the past couple of classes and has had many more visit. They are already getting a significant break in admissions standards over the average student. You're telling me he can't get 4-5 good players in the entire country that can meet NU standards and play basketball? Sorry, I'm not buying that at all.
Click to expand...

well he already has and made history at NU with the first 20 win regular in school history and first NCAA run.

but for the most part, yes. there are kids who get denied admissions with 3.0 GPAs because of test scores, and kids who have good test scores but struggled early as freshmen or sophomores with grades so overall GPA isn't great. or 5th year kids who graduate from another college but are not allowed into grad school. and there are good kids who have decent grades who just don't want to deal with the academic rigors.

but again:
what NU offers:
a top level education
a laughingstock basketball reputation
a school with one 20 win regular season
a school with one NCAA tournament appearance
a school with a rigorous academic schedule in a short time period (quarter system)
a school with a very different campus life compared to other big ten schools
a school that sometimes requires kids to do extra work for admissions

what NU doesn't or hasn't offered:
a winning reputation
a large dedicated fan base
a real big ten worthy arena (prior to this year)
a big ten worthy practice facility
a history of sending players to the NBA
playing alot of minutes as a young player (not since bmac class, changes with the new incoming class)

for basketball athletes - does NU really set them up for better long term success outside of basketball compared to peer schools in the big ten? i honestly don't know what they study enough to know. i have to think an academic minded high level athlete will have great connections at any big ten school or peer academic institution. are the basketball kids going into the degree fields that are top notch at NU versus other places?

so now you are selling to an extremely limited group of athletes (who can actually get into school and play at a high level) a place that on paper is basically worse than every other place they are considering and is probably only marginally better academically

it takes a very special kid to commit to NU to play basketball and its probably the most impressive thing about the NU program (for all years, not just CCC). the kids have to be willing to take on the perception of going to a laughingstock, know the social life is not comparable to peer schools, be willing to put in more work in the classroom, and be willing to believe you can be a part of changing a history of losing.

Basketball is different than a lot of sports in that one high level/NBA level player can be "unstoppable" against a group of average/above average guys given the five on five nature of basketball.
 
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pawildcat said:
I'd rather see NU go after players out of HS and develop them rather than get two heavily involved with the transfer game. Transfers often don't become the "quick fix" coaches are looking for and even if they're relatively effective it's a very short-term solution. It's fine to grab an occasional transfer, but I'd hate to see 2-3 a year become a habit.
Click to expand...

one thing most basketball coaches try to avoid is getting large recruiting classes (greater than 4). its extremely hard to keep everyone happy with playing time. and unless you are getting very good young players, old players win the college game.
 
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pawildcat said:
He supposedly has recruited three four-star players in the past couple of classes and has had many more visit. They are already getting a significant break in admissions standards over the average student. You're telling me he can't get 4-5 good players in the entire country that can meet NU standards and play basketball? Sorry, I'm not buying that at all.
Click to expand...

there has also been a lot of groundwork put in recruiting kids in the 2020 and 2021 classes. ideally NU would have 7-8 to use across those 2 classes.
 
Haywood,

Two things....I loved, loved, loved the quarter system. Got to focus, mid term test told you where you stood, and then you could literally crunch for five weeks and get it done. And then it was over. Loved the quarter system. Semesters provide a false sense of security and, really, don't cover more content IMO.

Does NU set you up better for life? Two of my HS teammates got full rides to NU for mens bball. The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that the one who came from a better background, better family situation, got onto a career path and stuck with it. The one who came from a rougher background has cycled through a number of careers but there has always been an alum there to assist.

The difference from other schools, IMO, is that the coaching staff was obsessed about graduation. While I do think many kids turned down by NU would do just fine academically had they been admitted, the curriculum has rigor and sets a higher standard. The irony is there are many schools where, plainly speaking, it would be easier for athletes to graduate that don't make it nearly the priority they should.
 
pawildcat said:
I'd rather see NU go after players out of HS and develop them rather than get two heavily involved with the transfer game. Transfers often don't become the "quick fix" coaches are looking for and even if they're relatively effective it's a very short-term solution. It's fine to grab an occasional transfer, but I'd hate to see 2-3 a year become a habit.
Click to expand...

It's all about what's available. With a young team already it's tough to just add more frosh especially if you are tying up a scholarship for multiple years on a guy who may not be that highly rated.

If you take a grad transfer hopefully it fills a need, it can help your younger players learn, and the scholarship then opens up just a year later for a better recruit.

If you recruit too many frosh then you end up right back in the weird cycles where you have a couple really full classes and then few guys following behind them. Our current soph/frosh classes total 7 players. If you take more frosh it limits recruiting in following years.

I'm fine with a grad transfer or two as long as they fit the team needs.

Anything you can do to get more wins helps build the culture and attitude for the future and sells the program.
 
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Medill90 said:
Haywood,

Two things....I loved, loved, loved the quarter system. Got to focus, mid term test told you where you stood, and then you could literally crunch for five weeks and get it done. And then it was over. Loved the quarter system. Semesters provide a false sense of security and, really, don't cover more content IMO.

Does NU set you up better for life? Two of my HS teammates got full rides to NU for mens bball. The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that the one who came from a better background, better family situation, got onto a career path and stuck with it. The one who came from a rougher background has cycled through a number of careers but there has always been an alum there to assist.

The difference from other schools, IMO, is that the coaching staff was obsessed about graduation. While I do think many kids turned down by NU would do just fine academically had they been admitted, the curriculum has rigor and sets a higher standard. The irony is there are many schools where, plainly speaking, it would be easier for athletes to graduate that don't make it nearly the priority they should.
Click to expand...

thanks for chiming in -

1) i think from an athlete standpoint its harder. you are cramming the same amount of work, with smarter classmates around you, into a shorter amount of time

2) the high school teammates - were they good? were they the type of guys NU needs to fill the roster with to be competitive in the B1G ten and return to the tourney? or were they guys who were "good enough" to play but wanted to use NU to get good jobs? (not coming at those guys - just trying to understand. i don't NU can be good in the Big if most of the roster has that type of player)
 
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combes said:
I’ve heard that the family wanted Collins to recruit him out of high school. He did not. Family not happy. Won’t get a second chance.

Now that source could be completely wrong, and maybe the school ties will prevail.
Click to expand...

Heard that too, but given the fact the kid ended up at W&M it seems like NU's initial assessment of his talent level matched with that of other power conf schools. To his credit he seems to have improved and maybe he can help us, but as we just saw with taylor big success at a lower level doesn't translate automatically to big 10 accolades.

Given that the kid doesn't appear to have a pro playing future I'd think his family would see the NU academic benefits.
 
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haywood jahblowme said:
thanks for chiming in -

1) i think from an athlete standpoint its harder. you are cramming the same amount of work, with smarter classmates around you, into a shorter amount of time

2) the high school teammates - were they good? were they the type of guys NU needs to fill the roster with to be competitive in the B1G ten and return to the tourney? or were they guys who were "good enough" to play but wanted to use NU to get good jobs? (not coming at those guys - just trying to understand. i don't NU can be good in the Big if most of the roster has that type of player)
Click to expand...

They were both highly recruited and both chose NU over DePaul when DePaul had Aguirre. Both started all four years at NU. Both sets of parents were pretty clear....if NU is giving you a ride, you're going to NU.

That team was good...best NU team in years...but the Big Ten was historically great....just a monster of a league.
 
haywood jahblowme said:
one thing most basketball coaches try to avoid is getting large recruiting classes (greater than 4). its extremely hard to keep everyone happy with playing time. and unless you are getting very good young players, old players win the college game.
Click to expand...
Haywood, your essentially saying we are not going to recruit anymore 2019 players and save those 2020 when we have five available but will probably use three. With ten scholarship players right now, I would say we will probably go for a couple of fifth year guys and in all probability they will be guards. I sort of remember Pierce as a scorer at Glenbard West, but would you call him a two guard or more of a three. Remember we have only 1 two guard now unless you consider Koop one. I don’t as he seems more of a three.
 
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haywood jahblowme said:
one thing most basketball coaches try to avoid is getting large recruiting classes (greater than 4). its extremely hard to keep everyone happy with playing time. and unless you are getting very good young players, old players win the college game.
Click to expand...

I’ve talked to a couple friends who are college coaches, and they both say that ideally, you want 3 coming and 3 going every year, with that 1 year where you would have a 4th.
 
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Jeffrey Cat said:
Haywood, your essentially saying we are not going to recruit anymore 2019 players and save those 2020 when we have five available but will probably use three. With ten scholarship players right now, I would say we will probably go for a couple of fifth year guys and in all probability they will be guards. I sort of remember Pierce as a scorer at Glenbard West, but would you call him a two guard or more of a three. Remember we have only 1 two guard now unless you consider Koop one. I don’t as he seems more of a three.
Click to expand...

i was responding to a poster saying he wanted young kids over grad transfers. i was trying to point out NU is probably in a position to take anyone who is good and can get into school. at any position. but i don't think a class of 7 is likely (given we will have open scholarships and need players - we will take transfers)

hopefully by the 2020/2021 - you will have a roster of players (kopp, nance, young, greer, buie, jones, beran + transfers) that will all play or contribute. you will not be filling the 2020/2021 classes grads, but with incoming freshmen only because 1) the current roster is good enough 2) the incoming freshmen are good enough
 
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pawildcat said:
I'd rather see NU go after players out of HS and develop them rather than get two heavily involved with the transfer game. Transfers often don't become the "quick fix" coaches are looking for and even if they're relatively effective it's a very short-term solution. It's fine to grab an occasional transfer, but I'd hate to see 2-3 a year become a habit.
Click to expand...
You have to play with the hand you are dealt and for this coming year, need to use the grad transfer system. Do I want to see it used long term for this purpose? No but at this point it is reasonable. May be next year as well as a means of averaging out the classes and not have 5 guys in one class. But beyond that would like to see it used less often
 
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PurpleFaze said:
Heard that too, but given the fact the kid ended up at W&M it seems like NU's initial assessment of his talent level matched with that of other power conf schools. To his credit he seems to have improved and maybe he can help us, but as we just saw with taylor big success at a lower level doesn't translate automatically to big 10 accolades.

Given that the kid doesn't appear to have a pro playing future I'd think his family would see the NU academic benefits.
Click to expand...
Are the parents living in the area?
 
haywood jahblowme said:
i was responding to a poster saying he wanted young kids over grad transfers. i was trying to point out NU is probably in a position to take anyone who is good and can get into school. at any position. but i don't think a class of 7 is likely (given we will have open scholarships and need players - we will take transfers)

hopefully by the 2020/2021 - you will have a roster of players (kopp, nance, young, greer, buie, jones, beran + transfers) that will all play or contribute. you will not be filling the 2020/2021 classes grads, but with incoming freshmen only because 1) the current roster is good enough 2) the incoming freshmen are good enough
Click to expand...

You probably will need transfers if you need a class of 7, but that's not a situation you'd better put yourself in too often. Even a good transfer player usually will need time to adjust to new surroundings and a new system.
 
haywood jahblowme said:
well he already has and made history at NU with the first 20 win regular in school history and first NCAA run.

but for the most part, yes. there are kids who get denied admissions with 3.0 GPAs because of test scores, and kids who have good test scores but struggled early as freshmen or sophomores with grades so overall GPA isn't great. or 5th year kids who graduate from another college but are not allowed into grad school. and there are good kids who have decent grades who just don't want to deal with the academic rigors.

but again:
what NU offers:
a top level education
a laughingstock basketball reputation
a school with one 20 win regular season
a school with one NCAA tournament appearance
a school with a rigorous academic schedule in a short time period (quarter system)
a school with a very different campus life compared to other big ten schools
a school that sometimes requires kids to do extra work for admissions

what NU doesn't or hasn't offered:
a winning reputation
a large dedicated fan base
a real big ten worthy arena (prior to this year)
a big ten worthy practice facility
a history of sending players to the NBA
playing alot of minutes as a young player (not since bmac class, changes with the new incoming class)

for basketball athletes - does NU really set them up for better long term success outside of basketball compared to peer schools in the big ten? i honestly don't know what they study enough to know. i have to think an academic minded high level athlete will have great connections at any big ten school or peer academic institution. are the basketball kids going into the degree fields that are top notch at NU versus other places?

so now you are selling to an extremely limited group of athletes (who can actually get into school and play at a high level) a place that on paper is basically worse than every other place they are considering and is probably only marginally better academically

it takes a very special kid to commit to NU to play basketball and its probably the most impressive thing about the NU program (for all years, not just CCC). the kids have to be willing to take on the perception of going to a laughingstock, know the social life is not comparable to peer schools, be willing to put in more work in the classroom, and be willing to believe you can be a part of changing a history of losing.

Basketball is different than a lot of sports in that one high level/NBA level player can be "unstoppable" against a group of average/above average guys given the five on five nature of basketball.
Click to expand...

NU's defense did pretty well against opposing teams' guys, stoppable or unstoppable, this season. The team's major problem was putting the ball in the damn basket.
 
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