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Have Cats slipped this year versus last?

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Palindrome

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2001
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Consideration: Cats lost Drew Crawford, one of the most productive players in team history.
And, another: Jershon Cobb, who was our best hope to step up into that role, is "spot playing", hurting, and is far from as productively as he could if healthy.
And finally: Our conference W-L record is 1-9 this year, and was 5-5 after 10 games t last season.

Easy to say we have taken a backward step.

But also consider this: Last season our final average scoring margin in Big Ten play (including the tournament) was -8.4 points if my math hasn't failed me. Whereas, this season our average scoring margin in 10 conference games is a point better at -7.5 points.

And why do we FEEL as if we've slipped? Last season, in the 10 games decided by fewer than 10 points NU was 7-3. We had "the stuff" to pull out the relatively close ones. This year in conference play we've had 7 games decided by fewer than 10. Record in those is 1-6 ..... with no Crawford, very little Cobb, and very scant late game heroics by Demps. And I daresay, very few favorable breaks this year.

Taken all together, I am confident when speculating about the future if no one transfers out.
 
Good post, Palindrome. This season has been as big of a hard luck season as any I can remember. And that Maryland loss was KILLER, really broke the resolve of some of our guys.
 
Yes.

Losing Drew was big. He was a go-to front court player in a league where every successful team has one.

The Big 10 is much worse this year than last. Throw out the first 3 big 10 games and the scoring differential story looks a bit better.

Falzon will make a big difference next year, so improvement will come.

But you are what your record says you are, and right now the Cats are the worst team in the Big 10, have lost 9 straight, and finding a win in the remaining 9 games is difficult to see.
 
Originally posted by NJCat:
Yes.

Losing Drew was big. He was a go-to front court player in a league where every successful team has one.
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That and not having a healthy Cobb to replace him was devastating. We are the team we are, no doubt, but without Tap and Cobb only being able to spot up shoot offensively has really limited us. We have no upperclassmen we can rely on for any given game, and a frosh is unquestionably our best player. The addition of Ash and Falzon next will really help...but this season is lost unless we can win some close ones in the B1G tourny...
 
It is true that we were 7-3 in our close conference games last year, but you're glossing over the part where we were 0-10 in all the others, each one an awful blowout. This year we're only 0-3 in 10+ point margin games, so we're not getting killed as often, so it doesn't feel as bad, even though our record is objectively much worse.
 
With all the freshman minutes being played I think you have to consider it a conscious step backward.

When we changed coaches we made a choice to start over. I loved Carmody and he almost got us there unfortunately there were no real facility up grades during his tenure so unless you think a jumbotron makes players better, Collins has just as much (or little) to work with on day one as Carmody did. Carmody had the PO to sell as a dream and Collins has the I'm young and come from a successful BB tradition and family to sell as a dream. If he can keep selling the dream to recruits for two more years we might make it.
Next year NU will need to at least get within a game of the NIT. I know we all want better than that but I think observable progress each year is more important than a flash of success. This is really Collin's first year, last year was his orientation. This year his young guys are on the court. Next year more of his guys on the court and getting to the NIT with these freshmen as Jr's would be real measurable progress. Big dance when these freshman are seniors would be a reasonable goal.

The problem with thinking that you are going right to the top is when it stalls out, you no longer have the successful "new initiative" to sell. People judge it a failure. That's what is happening in football right now, we won a bowl and now for two seasons nothing good has happened. It's the same optimistic program with the same facilities. No longer heading up and nothing new to sell recruits.
 
Originally posted by Deeringfish:
With all the freshman minutes being played I think you have to consider it a conscious step backward.

When we changed coaches we made a choice to start over. I loved Carmody and he almost got us there unfortunately there were no real facility up grades during his tenure so unless you think a jumbotron makes players better, Collins has just as much (or little) to work with on day one as Carmody did. Carmody had the PO to sell as a dream and Collins has the I'm young and come from a successful BB tradition and family to sell as a dream. If he can keep selling the dream to recruits for two more years we might make it.
Next year NU will need to at least get within a game of the NIT. I know we all want better than that but I think observable progress each year is more important than a flash of success. This is really Collin's first year, last year was his orientation. This year his young guys are on the court. Next year more of his guys on the court and getting to the NIT with these freshmen as Jr's would be real measurable progress. Big dance when these freshman are seniors would be a reasonable goal.

The problem with thinking that you are going right to the top is when it stalls out, you no longer have the successful "new initiative" to sell. People judge it a failure. That's what is happening in football right now, we won a bowl and now for two seasons nothing good has happened. It's the same optimistic program with the same facilities. No longer heading up and nothing new to sell recruits.
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Excellent post.
 
Every trend line has blips that go up and down. One step back, two steps forward. This is hopefully our one step back before and two steps forward. That said, yes, it is undeniably a step back regardless of what the future brings.

The conference is worse. We beat a Final Four team on their own court last year. We are not going to have anywhere near the number of conference wins as last year. Close games or no close games. Yes, we lost Drew. Losing productive seniors is always tough. Cobb is a wash-- he hasn't been healthy in 4 years. I remember using Cobb's injury as an excuse for the Carmody teams as well. But remember it wasn't long ago that some were predicting our imminent trip to the Big Dance on the basis of the freshmen coming in (Law in particular). Perhaps we are seeing (once again) how freshmen rarely are huge difference makers and that the other teams in our conference reload with freshmen even better than what we have now. Collins is going to have to recruit is ass off to upgrade our talent even more or come up with some kind of magic to get our talent level beating teams with athletes at a minimum just as good.

This post was edited on 2/8 10:00 AM by DocCatsFan
 
I, as usual, disagree with you, at least on the need to upgrade our talent. I think this freshmen class is good enough to be the foundation of an NCAA tournament team if coached and developed properly and if we can add players with similar talent and athleticism. I am not saying that it's a certainty, but McIntosh, Law and Lindsey have shown enough potential to make me optimistic. Each of the freshmen needs to get a lot stronger, but we knew that coming in. Law has elite athleticism and a pretty solid foundation of skills. He needs to be able to get to the basket and draw fouls, but I hope that will come with added strength and confidence. Right now, he just cuts off his drives or gets his shot blocked, so he scores almost exclusively on open threes and put-backs. We need him to contribute 10-12 points a game efficiently next year and I think he can do that. Lindsey appears to have the best combination of 3-point range and athleticism from an NU shooting guard that I can recall. He just needs to get stronger and be more consistent. And I think Skelly will be an important piece of a good team. He is one of the more active big men we have had. I love having a 4 that can extend possessions, block shots and even get steals. The question for me is whether whether we can replace Olah with one or more big men and whether there is anyone on the team with the potential to put up 25 points every now and then.

I am actually less optimistic about next year's class than some. I think they can be good players but I don't see any of them making big contributions next year. Ash seems to have a similar skill set as Demps, so I don't see him getting minutes in front of a senior. Falzon seems to be a slightly more athletic Taphorn. It will interesting to see if the more talented freshmen takes minutes from the more experienced. junior. Either way, we need to get some points from that position. And Pardon sounds like a player that every teams needs, a big man that can rebound and guard the paint, but probably not a difference maker.

I expect the freshmen to make big strides next year. They should be much stronger and they will have gotten a lot more minutes than most of the sophomores in the conference. If we don't see significant progress, I agree that Collins will need to upgrade recruiting overall or at least find one player that can consistenly put up 15 plus points a game. I think this year's team could have made the tournament with Shurna. Hopefully, as the freshmen class develops, we will just need to add a Shurna-lite.
 
Originally posted by clarificationcat:
I, as usual, disagree with you, at least on the need to upgrade our talent.
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You may disagree with me but I want to thank you for the civil tone and what I think was a solid post. People really can disagree without being jerks about it. I hope you're right about the current class developing into NCAA Tourney quality players. I have no doubt they will get much better, I just think they need more surrounding help than you do.
 
Confident speculating about the future? Eh.

Let me help those who look for every opportunity to piss all over Collins. Easily, the most disappointing thing for me this season is the production of the experienced players NU needed to be reasonably successful - Cobb (excusable), Demps, Lumpkin and yes, even Olah.

Heading into the future, my concern becomes a question of whether this is the type of improvement we will continue to see. Obviously, it's too early to judge. However, like so much of what we see on these boards, I don't think across-the-board improvement is as automatic as many like to portray.

I also wonder about CC's tendency to give players every chance possible as well as letting "shooters" fire away. Too often it gets this team in trouble.

This is going to be a long haul. Next year we're talking about Demps, Olah, BMac and a bunch of freshmen and sophomores. Anybody who puts demands on that group is crazy.

They need another BMac, some more size and defensive improvement from BMac or a strong guard on both sides of the ball to complement him. But I see the strategies that can win. We've seen the adjustments here and there. I like the mindset. So far, from the outside, the losing doesn't seem to be eating up CC.

But the program is going to need a break in the next year or two. They gotta have something they can point to in the first four or five years that actually demonstrates they are close. You can only sell vapor for so long - especially with crappy facilities.

Ahhhh, Northwestern basketball.
 
Re: Confident speculating about the future? Eh.

I guess I am less concerned with the development of our experienced players because I thought they all have ceilings that are going to limit their growth. Lumpkin is a 6'6" power forward with a below average shot. If he were 6'9", I think he could be a very good B1G player. He can certainly expand his offensive game, but, again, I am not concerned about his lack of development on the offensive end given his shot and he can only develop so much as a defender and rebounder because of his size. Demps is a 6'2" shooting guard with slightly above-average athleticism and a streaky shot. Again, I think he's a valuable member of the team, like Lumpkin, and a great guy to have on the floor at the end of games, but he is who I thought he would be. Olah is always going to be limited because of his lack of explosiveness. If he were a good leaper, he would be unstoppable against most teams. As it is, he's an above-average BIG player for his position and I think he will have a good senior year. Looking back at each of those players as freshmen, I think we should be estatic with where they are. If the current freshmen improve that much, we will definitely go to the tournament. I don't see the same ceilings with Law, Lindsey and Skelly (to a lesser extent), though. They appear to have the size, athleticism and skill sets that can be developed to compete at a very high level. McIntosh is already a good B1G player, but he may actually have a lower ceiling than Law and Lindsey because of his good but not great athleticism. He's sneaky quick and has pretty good hops, but he is not ultra-quick for the position and, while he has good size, he is not 6'5" either. Like I said, I think next year will be huge year. I think that Olah, Demps, Lindsey, Law, Lumpkin, McIntosh, Taphorn, Skelly and Vasser will be a pretty solid 9-man rotation. Somebody needs to emerge as a 15-plus point scorer though, for the team to win consistently.
 
Next year we lose Cobb, Sobo and Kreisberg. we bring in Ash, Falzon and Pardon. If everyone else matures the average amount, is this an upgrade?
 
Originally posted by Palindrome:
Consideration: Cats lost Drew Crawford, one of the most productive players in team history.
And, another: Jershon Cobb, who was our best hope to step up into that role, is "spot playing", hurting, and is far from as productively as he could if healthy.
And finally: Our conference W-L record is 1-9 this year, and was 5-5 after 10 games t last season.

Easy to say we have taken a backward step.

But also consider this: Last season our final average scoring margin in Big Ten play (including the tournament) was -8.4 points if my math hasn't failed me. Whereas, this season our average scoring margin in 10 conference games is a point better at -7.5 points.

And why do we FEEL as if we've slipped? Last season, in the 10 games decided by fewer than 10 points NU was 7-3. We had "the stuff" to pull out the relatively close ones. This year in conference play we've had 7 games decided by fewer than 10. Record in those is 1-6 ..... with no Crawford, very little Cobb, and very scant late game heroics by Demps. And I daresay, very few favorable breaks this year.

Taken all together, I am confident when speculating about the future if no one transfers out.
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The 5-5 start last year was a bit of a mirage. In at least 3 of those wins ghe opponent shot ridiculously poorly (like mid 20s). Yes, we played good D, but no defense is that good....we had the fortune of playing pretty well simultaneously with the opponent being ice cold.
 
Having a go-to player like Crawford, makes it far, far easier to be successful as a player who can create at will takes pressure off of all the other players.

We do not have such a player this year. This, quite simply, is the reason for our failure, imo. The good news is that I believe that the current crop of freshman will produce at least one go-to player in future years.

If we traded our best player (let's for sale of example, use BMac) for the best player on any other BIG team , those teams would be significantly worse, and our team would be far more successful, even without BMac. No slight against a wonderful freshman player, but he is not a go-to player yet.
 
Re: Confident speculating about the future? Eh.


Originally posted by clarificationcat:
I guess I am less concerned with the development of our experienced players because I thought they all have ceilings that are going to limit their growth. Lumpkin is a 6'6" power forward with a below average shot. If he were 6'9", I think he could be a very good B1G player. He can certainly expand his offensive game, but, again, I am not concerned about his lack of development on the offensive end given his shot and he can only develop so much as a defender and rebounder because of his size. Demps is a 6'2" shooting guard with slightly above-average athleticism and a streaky shot. Again, I think he's a valuable member of the team, like Lumpkin, and a great guy to have on the floor at the end of games, but he is who I thought he would be. Olah is always going to be limited because of his lack of explosiveness. If he were a good leaper, he would be unstoppable against most teams. As it is, he's an above-average BIG player for his position and I think he will have a good senior year. Looking back at each of those players as freshmen, I think we should be estatic with where they are. If the current freshmen improve that much, we will definitely go to the tournament. I don't see the same ceilings with Law, Lindsey and Skelly (to a lesser extent), though. They appear to have the size, athleticism and skill sets that can be developed to compete at a very high level. McIntosh is already a good B1G player, but he may actually have a lower ceiling than Law and Lindsey because of his good but not great athleticism. He's sneaky quick and has pretty good hops, but he is not ultra-quick for the position and, while he has good size, he is not 6'5" either. Like I said, I think next year will be huge year. I think that Olah, Demps, Lindsey, Law, Lumpkin, McIntosh, Taphorn, Skelly and Vasser will be a pretty solid 9-man rotation. Somebody needs to emerge as a 15-plus point scorer though, for the team to win consistently.
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A very nice post and I agree with much of what you wrote here. I was going to write similar stuff, i.e., that we have seen good development out of Olah and Demps already. I can see both of those players improving next year: Demps with his shooting, and Olah working on techniques to reduce turnovers and becoming more aggressive (he lays great when he's fired up). Olah often takes a pass from the elbow and slowly drifts across the lane looking to pass out..why not on one of those plays go hard to the basket? He needs to get to the FT line more where he can score points with his excellent FT shooting.

We've seen improvement in those guys, so I expect similar improvement in Skelly, Lindsey, and Law. Mac is aready playing well, he just needs more experience to eliminate the head-scratcher plays he makes...like being wide open in the lane but trying to pass to covered bigs rather than taking the easy shot.
 
We may also pick up a transfer at the four or five.

Ash can do more than Sobo but won't be the steadying hand....but that won't be as important next year with all the frosh becoming sophomores.

NU has not had a player like Falzon. He's an inch taller than Tap and heavier. Puts the ball on the floor and can creatively finish around the hoop.

Pardon has the opportunity to become a beast in the paint. Not yet the basketball IQ of Big Ivy, but young, healthy and big.
And regarding the bigs, look for Skelly to take a major step over the summer. Very athletic kid.

So, I'd argue for the upgrade but the major caveat that we're not compariing apples to apples. Does a disservice to both classes.

If year three recruiting is on par with the first two (Benson!) we'll be talking about more than just making the tournament.
 
Originally posted by Medill90:

NU has not had a player like Falzon. He's an inch taller than Tap and heavier. Puts the ball on the floor and can creatively finish around the hoop.
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Uh....does the name John Shurna ring a bell?

Man, how soon they forget.
 
Falzon has something like 25 lbs. over Shurna at the same age. He plays a more aggressive game in the paint than Shurna.

Falzon and Shurna convert from distance at the same rate, but Shurna's shot is highly blockable because of the low release, whereas Falzon has a high release point and so is not blockable by shorter players.

Different players.
 
Shurna was the all time leading scorer at NU but his shot was "highly blockable"?

Didn't John win a dunk contest as a high school senior? That's pretty good work in the paint.

But if Falzon is even just as good as the Baby Faced Assassin NU will be in good shape!
 
Shurna had a shockingly quick release and so he rarely, if ever, had shots blocked despite his low release point.

I like how we're grading a guy who hasn't played a moment of college basketball over the program's all-time leading scorer.
 
And the leading scorer in the conference his senior year as well as being first team all-conference.

I undestand his point, though, that Shurna came in a skinny kid better suited for the 3. He could bring the ball up the court if you needed it and was a suprisingly explosive leaper. He had some really nifty moves in the paint, but he certainly wasn't a banger. From the limited tape I have seen, Falzon does not look particularly quick or explosive but if he can truly hold his own in the paint with other 4's, he will be a great addition with his outside shot. If he ends up shooting 44% on 3-pointers like Shurna (and taking over 200 of them a season), our chances of making the tournament are pretty darn good.
 
I agree - if he's an NBA lottery pick, which is what a Shurna who can also bang in the paint is, we'll have a great shot at the tournament.
 
Spud Webb won a dunk contest in the NBA that didn't make him good in the paint. It made him the winner of an NBA dunk contest.

Yes, Shurna's release point made his shot highly blockable for his height. When he went played in the NBA summer league he had his shot blocked a number of times by shorter players. His low release point is why he had little chance in the NBA. Not an issue in the PO where the three point shots were wide open looks. And Jon had a conventional shot down low, so never an issue there.

But my larger point is that Falzon is a different player from Shurna. Yes, they can both shoot lights out. But they are built differently and play the game differently.

And I'm sorry to piss in church, and Shurna was the best NU player in a long time, but should it be heretical to suggest NU can do better than Shurna in time?

Doesn't that kind of limit what the team can do? I mean, doesn't OSU have a player just about each and every year who meets or exceeds what Shurna did in his best year?

And if you take the previous posts or this post as being anti Shurna you've got a reading problem.
 
No, it's not heretical, but I prefer to wait to evaluate players once they make it to the Big Ten, rather than comparing their high school tape against college players. Remember when everyone here thought Johnnie Vassar was going to be the next Trey Burke as a freshman?
 
Memories of Shurna as a freshman are why I'm keeping the faith with Vic Law. I wonder if there's a chance Vic gets named to some U.S. selects squad this summer, where he learns, 'Holy geez, I can do this.'
 
Re: Confident speculating about the future? Eh.

The reason that improvement to Demps and Olah and Lumpkin matters is because those guys will continue to get minutes next year, and more losses mean less recruiting success.

The first two years are easy to recruit on - New Coach New Era sold one very well-regarded local and a rapid-stock-riser (or two, if you count Lindsey's summer emergence), plus two more who were mostly unknowns. A bit of progress was enough to sell the academically-minded Falzon plus Ash and Pardon.

But another year in the crapper and the 2017 class is going to be weak, to say nothing of how the 2016 class might shape up.
 
Originally posted by VirginiaWildcat:

Originally posted by NJCat:
Yes.

Losing Drew was big. He was a go-to front court player in a league where every successful team has one.
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That and not having a healthy Cobb to replace him was devastating. We are the team we are, no doubt, but without Tap and Cobb only being able to spot up shoot offensively has really limited us. We have no upperclassmen we can rely on for any given game, and a frosh is unquestionably our best player. The addition of Ash and Falzon next will really help...but this season is lost unless we can win some close ones in the B1G tourny...
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Interesting, considering that there were those who readily dismissed Tap and Cobb (among others) from being big contributors to this season's team w/ the belief that the frosh (at least some of them) were going to be the big guns.
 
Originally posted by Styre:
It is true that we were 7-3 in our close conference games last year, but you're glossing over the part where we were 0-10 in all the others, each one an awful blowout. This year we're only 0-3 in 10+ point margin games, so we're not getting killed as often, so it doesn't feel as bad, even though our record is objectively much worse.
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But at the same time, the conf. as a whole is weaker (only elite team may be UW and they don't have any depth which bodes ill for a long Tourney run).
 
Originally posted by Deeringfish:

When we changed coaches we made a choice to start over. I loved Carmody and he almost got us there unfortunately there were no real facility up grades during his tenure so unless you think a jumbotron makes players better, Collins has just as much (or little) to work with on day one as Carmody did. Carmody had the PO to sell as a dream and Collins has the I'm young and come from a successful BB tradition and family to sell as a dream. If he can keep selling the dream to recruits for two more years we might make it.
Next year NU will need to at least get within a game of the NIT. I know we all want better than that but I think observable progress each year is more important than a flash of success. This is really Collin's first year, last year was his orientation. This year his young guys are on the court. Next year more of his guys on the court and getting to the NIT with these freshmen as Jr's would be real measurable progress. Big dance when these freshman are seniors would be a reasonable goal.

The problem with thinking that you are going right to the top is when it stalls out, you no longer have the successful "new initiative" to sell. People judge it a failure. That's what is happening in football right now, we won a bowl and now for two seasons nothing good has happened. It's the same optimistic program with the same facilities. No longer heading up and nothing new to sell recruits.
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Disagree a bit w/ some things.

BC for most of his tenure had to deal w/ recruiting w/ everyday BB facilities that were simply embarrassing (no coach at this level should have to make up excuses to not show recruits the facilities as he had to do).

And I wouldn't dismiss the improvements to WR as modest as it might be - what was there before was also simply an embarrassment.

CC also has the benefit of the 'Cats having had a 4 yr run in the post season, so while BC had to get recruits to buy into the belief that things would change where the program would be on the favorable side of the W-L column, CC (like what BC had done towards the end of his tenure) can point out that it is indeed possible to win consistently at NU and that the recruit could be the missing piece to get the 'Cats over the proverbial hump.

Now, 2 seasons of losing has put a dent into that message and a 3rd season of the same could really start to hurt the recruiting - which is why it will be crucial for the 'Cats to start turning things around next season (same thing applies to gridiron 'Cats).

Now, where CC lost out is not having more upperclassmen who can contribute, but that's what usually happens in a coaching change.

BC's tenuous hold on his job the last couple of seasons didn't help recruiting larger classes and w/ Cobb's health issues, Abrahamson's transfer, Tap's injury and Sina's decommitment - CC has less to work w/ and needed to rely on his frosh.

Now, relying on frosh doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing as there have been a good no. of frosh who were impact or at least significant contributors - but at least on the offensive end, out of the frosh class of 5, only 1, BMac has been an impact player.

If say, Law, had been a Coble or Shurna type of player on the offensive end, that would have gone a good way in making up for the loss of Crawford (w/ BMac making up for the loss of a healthier Cobb, at least on the offensive side).

Now, we'll see what a full season of experience and an off-season will do for the rest of the frosh, but here's to hoping that Falzon will be an impact F along the lines of a Coble or Shurna and that Ash will be like a healthy Cobb.



This post was edited on 2/9 3:56 AM by Katatonic
 
Originally posted by clarificationcat:
I, as usual, disagree with you, at least on the need to upgrade our talent. I think this freshmen class is good enough to be the foundation of an NCAA tournament team if coached and developed properly and if we can add players with similar talent and athleticism. I am not saying that it's a certainty, but McIntosh, Law and Lindsey have shown enough potential to make me optimistic. Each of the freshmen needs to get a lot stronger, but we knew that coming in. Law has elite athleticism and a pretty solid foundation of skills.

I expect the freshmen to make big strides next year. They should be much stronger and they will have gotten a lot more minutes than most of the sophomores in the conference. If we don't see significant progress, I agree that Collins will need to upgrade recruiting overall or at least find one player that can consistenly put up 15 plus points a game. I think this year's team could have made the tournament with Shurna. Hopefully, as the freshmen class develops, we will just need to add a Shurna-lite.
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Well, Law has certain skills, but I wouldn't say that he has skills when it comes to the offensive side of the ball when his shooting % is just plain awful for a F w/ his long range % even worse.

Now, that certainly doesn't mean that Law won't develop into a pretty good player, but it remains to be seen if he develops like Hearn and Nash ended up doing or if his athleticism ends up being for naught (as some more athletic NU players ended up w/ pretty modest careers).

BMac has impressed me on the offensive side of the ball (his floater is just deadly), but he has been a liability on D.

Like you, I like the glimpses that we have seen from the other frosh, but at the same time, fans from other B1G teams say the same thing.

And while I like the incoming class of Falzon, Ash and Pardon - PSU and NEB have higher ranked classes coming in and RU has the highest ranked (ESPN) recruit out of the teams currently in the bottom tier.

While I'm optimistic, at the same time, it's not going to be easy for CC.
 
Originally posted by NUCat320:
Memories of Shurna as a freshman are why I'm keeping the faith with Vic Law. I wonder if there's a chance Vic gets named to some U.S. selects squad this summer, where he learns, 'Holy geez, I can do this.'
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Wrong comparison.

Law is pretty much a diff. type of player from Shurna (a more likely comparison to Shurna would be Falzon in being a skilled shooter, altho Falzon has the build to do more around the basket) or Coble,

More like a taller, more physically talented version of Nash.




This post was edited on 2/9 4:16 AM by Katatonic
 
Re: Confident speculating about the future? Eh.

Originally posted by clarificationcat:
I guess I am less concerned with the development of our experienced players because I thought they all have ceilings that are going to limit their growth. Lumpkin is a 6'6" power forward with a below average shot. If he were 6'9", I think he could be a very good B1G player. He can certainly expand his offensive game, but, again, I am not concerned about his lack of development on the offensive end given his shot and he can only develop so much as a defender and rebounder because of his size.
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The thing is, Lumpkin is playing way out of position as a PF.

Heck, he'd be an undersized SF like what Crawford was (both had the size of a typical swing player).

And Lumpkin isn't a bad shooter (w/ a 57% FG% and 38% from 3 pt land (he actually has a pretty nice stroke - when he misses on 3s, more often than not, the ball rims out).

Lumpkin seems to be the polar opposite of Demps when it comes to taking shots; maybe things would be diff. if he were going up against players more his size.
 
The comparison is the development path. Shurna was lost and confused as a freshman, getting playing time because there were no other options - and even then, seeing his playing time limited. (He was basically a starter getting bench minutes by the end.)

Law is lost and confused and talented - I hope he makes a significant leap, though a leap on the order of Shurna's is unlikely.
 
Originally posted by NUCat320:
The comparison is the development path. Shurna was lost and confused as a freshman, getting playing time because there were no other options - and even then, seeing his playing time limited. (He was basically a starter getting bench minutes by the end.)

Law is lost and confused and talented - I hope he makes a significant leap, though a leap on the order of Shurna's is unlikely.
Click to expand...
Your memory isn't quite accurate. As a true freshman John was third on the team in scoring behind Coble and Craig Moore. He also had 3 rebounds a game. He wasn't "lost" and Carmody frequently described him as a guy who "just knows how to score."

Also, after Coble, Moore, and Juice he averaged the most minutes per game. Yeah he was a freshman, but hardly "lost and confused" as you say.
 
I remember Shurna being very clutch as a freshman for the opportunity he got as the third or fourth option. Not afraid to take big shots. Ditto Cobb.
 
Re: Confident speculating about the future? Eh.


He has done a nice job of making wide open 3's. I think he plays within himself on the offensive side because he is not comfortable taking contested jump shots. I don't see him being much better offensively against smaller, quicker players, athough he probably would get more offensive rebounds and points in the paint. He can be an important piece of a good team but I still think his shot limits his potential. I will try to pay more attention to his shooting in warm-ups.
 
The only time we have beaten OSU in the Carmody/Collins era was due to a then-freshman Johnny Shurna 3-pointer with 3 seconds to go. Shurna's freshman year stats are markedly better than what Law has put up thus far in all areas except defensive rebounds and free throw percentage. That being said, I still have faith in Law's ability to improve significantly, as you don't shoot over 80% from the free throw line with such a poor 3-point percentage. Vic will get stronger in the offseason and I expect his game to improve as he is better able to handle the bangers in the Big Ten.
 
Cobb is a wash? Please. While he has been injury prone his entire career, he is a shadow of what he was last year. Last year he averaged 33 mpg and 12.2 ppg and this year it is about 22 with 5.8 ppg. Other categories have suffered badly as well. He is not getting to the line showing that he is much more of a jump shooter with no drive (as the significant reduction in FTA indicates from 2.4-0.7 indicates) . He is giving it his all but he just does not have it. And his decline has hurt us significantly. It also hurts our D
 
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