I'm annoyed

[shakes3858]

Ok, seriously, what has changed from Carmody to Collins? Yes, recruiting looks better, but I'm not seeing it on the court. Here is what I see:
1. a team without the lateral speed to stay in front of the man on defene
2. a team that is poor at rebounding
3. a team that is reliant on 3 pointers... and maybe if they go in, the middle will open up a little.

What am I not seeing?

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Ok, seriously, what has changed from Carmody to Collins? Yes, recruiting looks better, but I'm not seeing it on the court. Here is what I see:
1. a team without the lateral speed to stay in front of the man on defene
2. a team that is poor at rebounding
3. a team that is reliant on 3 pointers... and maybe if they go in, the middle will open up a little.

What am I not seeing?

Did you see the game? It was a team reliant on three-pointers figure out a way to win even though we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from outside. Thus, we can beat teams in different ways. We were also missing Law and JVG. Lots of positives to take away from this one.

 

[Deeringfish]

Did you see the game? It was a team reliant on three-pointers figure out a way to win even though we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from outside. Thus, we can beat teams in different ways. We were also missing Law and JVG. Lots of positives to take away from this one.

Yeah, I got go with Virginia here. We hung with DePaul on their court man to man and when we switched to Zone they couldn't figure us out. I think that that is pretty cool; that we can play like two different teams on the same night. That change up may screw up a lot of teams.

 

[Catreporter]

Yeah, I got go with Virginia here. We hung with DePaul on their court man to man and when we switched to Zone they couldn't figure us out. I think that that is pretty cool; that we can play like two different teams on the same night. That change up may screw up a lot of teams.

We outrebounded DePaul despite Olah sitting out a good portion of the second half with foul trouble and we won a game despite shooting 6-of-27 threes (and many of them open shots) on the road. Nothing wrong with that performance.

 

[shakes3858]

Did you see the game? It was a team reliant on three-pointers figure out a way to win even though we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from outside. Thus, we can beat teams in different ways. We were also missing Law and JVG. Lots of positives to take away from this one.

Yes, I saw it and that's my point. We're reliant on the 3 just like we were in the PO. When we don't "make shots" we have no plan B. What were we in regulation 4-25 from 3? We're not going to win many big ten games unless we get hot from 3.

We outrebounded DePaul despite Olah sitting out a good portion of the second half with.

How many offensive rebounds did DePaul get in crunch time? Didn't count but it was too many.

 

[docrugby1]

I believe the BC v CC discussions are always entertaining. CC currently has a much deeper team than any in the BC era. CC has 2 players that can create their own shot and a host of spot up shooters that usually provide secondary scoring. CC has potentially better rebounding than BC ever had but still lacks the overall athletic ability of great rebounding teams

CC is relying on man to man defense but I think he will come to the realization that he better have a couple of different zones to fall back on against the more athletic teams .( Xavier now plays the 1-3-1 as one of its primary defenses but with a much bigger athletic player on the baseline)

BC won games with unusual offensive and defensive schemes. I have no idea whether his record would have been better with today's talent. He was able to be occasionally competitive against superior teams because of coaching brilliance but could never reach the "Holy Grail" of an NCAA tournament appearance because talent ultimately prevails

BC won games with poor talent and great coaching. CC is attempting to win games with improved talent and more traditional coaching. Only time will tell if NU can assemble the necessary talent to be consistently competitive.

It is interesting to see that many of the important contributors to this year's team are BC recruits- Olah, Demps, Lumpkin, Taphorn(?). We will see whether CC recruits can live up to greater expectations in the next few years.

I respect BC's coaching ability and I always attributed the lack of talent to NU's academic restrictions but it is obvious that CC is attracting better players than at any time in BC's tenure. I hope CC grows as a coach and keeps attracting better talent and NU enters a period of BB brilliance

I fully embrace the CC era but have a lot of respect for BC's contribution to the resurgence of NU basketball

 

[Sec.112]

It is interesting to see that many of the important contributors to this year's team are BC recruits- Olah, Demps, Lumpkin, Taphorn(?).

I think this simple statement is what your evaluation is missing. Four of the top seven guys in minutes played are Carmody recruits. For your first statement, that's three mediocre defenders (at best) and a hack machine. Sure, CC has something to do with that. But, like you imply, there's obviously some physical limitations.

On the other hand, I agree with your concern about the reliance on the 3-ball. I go a little nutty watching CC tell guys to heave it up who are obviously shooting like garbage. But look what it did for Falzon tonight.

I'm interested to see if the emphasis on the 3 changes as any post game evolves (generous term of the evening) in the coming years.

That's the short answer. In the interest of board sanity, I'll stay away from the oodles of differences between BC and CC you're not mentioning. Some tendencies also have me scratching my head wondering if the third-year coach is the right guy. But many show me he has a direction and knows what's needed.

 

[NJCat83588]

Ok, seriously, what has changed from Carmody to Collins? Yes, recruiting looks better, but I'm not seeing it on the court. Here is what I see:
1. a team without the lateral speed to stay in front of the man on defene
2. a team that is poor at rebounding
3. a team that is reliant on 3 pointers... and maybe if they go in, the middle will open up a little.

What am I not seeing?

I prefer not to bring up Carmody.

I don't disagree with your 3 points. But I think you are missing the fact that when the 3s weren't dropping, the guards went to the bucket and tried to create shots. And NU kept pushing the ball and didn't try to milk the clock. Much more motion on offense, trying to swing the ball to get open shots. And NU won a game despite being totally out-shot for 30 minutes or so. That's something!

 

[Walker Fan]

Okay. Here are the responses to points brought up by the poster who is confused by yesterday's games. Here is why NU won yesterday:
1. When NU's outside shooting was awful, Lumpkin stepped up and scored key first half points and was the only guy who hit a three;
2. DePaul's scouting report was to guard McIntosh and Demps tight so in the second half, they adjusted and took the ball to the hole. McIntosh was 0 for shooting from the outside, but made many key plays taking the ball to the hoop and passing to open guys inside. That is a huge difference from prior regime's PGs who did not have the skills to take the ball to the hole. From reports of incoming PG, Isiah Brown, he can also take the ball to the hole which opens shots from the outside;
3. Falzon is a player and even though he was 0 for 6 from the 3 pt. lane in regulation, he made some key plays on offense and defense and made the two key 3's to win the game. Falzon is a 4-star player who never would have considered NU under the prior regime or the prior regime would never have made the effort to get him. That is a huge difference since he will be a huge factor in this year's team and future year's. This coaching staff addresses issues and gets players who fill the void. They need a PF who is 6'8"-6'10" and they recruit Skelly and Falzon. They need a more athletic backup center and recruit JVZ (fingers crossed that his health improves);
4. DePaul has quick jumpers and at least three or four athletic players in the 6'7"-6'10" range in Henry, Hamilton and 6'9" Rashun Stimage. NU's most athletic jumpers who would have been able to rebound better are 1. Vic Law and 2. JVZ. Therefore, NU had some issues on offensive rebounds;
5. It is a local game and a rivalry game. Senior Aaron Simpson is from North Chicago and had the best game of the season yesterday and scored DePaul's first 10 points;
6. Strategy by Collins: going to the zone in the second half was huge and DePaul's offense fell apart. Kudos to Collins and the players for executing well. The prior regime would never has been as flexible in strategy (only had the 1-3-1 trick defense at its disposal) and did not have the players to play man to man.

Olah struggled with fouls and failure to use his body to box out well and a number of balls slipped out of his hands, but he made key free throws at the end and blocked key shots and was a good leader to the team.

The reasons why NU is better is the coaching, development of players and recruiting. NU would never have 4-star players like Falzon, Law, and RI high 3-star players McIntosh, Benson and solid three-star players - Lindsey, Skelly, Brown, Pardon and Ash under prior regime because they never would have made the efforts to get those players and some of those players have stated on record that they would not have chosen to go to NU under prior regime.

Yes, it was an ugly game yesterday. Not a Picasso but a win is a win. Also, OSU's win over #4 Kentucky improves Big 10's strength and Indiana's win over ND improves the conference's strength which helps NU's chances. However, they have a lot of work to do before Game 1 in conference at UNL and Game 2 at home v. Maryland.

 

[CPVT]

I don't think lot's of threes is something to complain about. We had pretty good looks all game, and both the NBA and the NCAA are trending to a much more 3-heavy style. Even if we aren't shooting that high of a percentage every game, it spreads the floor for Olah, creates long o-rebounds, and obviously 3>2. I expect our shooters to improve as our roster matures. I also think we had good action to get other looks. McIntosh created for Lumpkin and others, Olah had a few wide open short jumpers, demps got his midrange game going, etc.

Personally, I felt that our defense was a bigger issue in this game, as we really weren't getting stops until the zone. As others have mentioned, losing Law hurts there, but I'd like to see if Ash could have spelled McIntosh a bit. We are really wearing him down i think

 

[NJCat83588]

but I'd like to see if Ash could have spelled McIntosh a bit. We are really wearing him down i think

Ash didn't play yesterday. Was/is he hurt?

 

[Medill90]

Comparing Collins to Carmody is a waste of time. Comparing Collins to the group of four NU coaches, the modern era coaches, isn't.

When the '16 recruits walk on to campus Collins will have done something I thought impossible at NU. Three four star forwards and one four star center will be on the roster. Never thought I'd see that.

Collins is coming along fine as a coach, the staff is terrific. Great camaraderie, the kids seem to communicate well.

On shooting. With pure shooters the misses don't matter as Tre said after the game. You can miss six in a row and then hit one and oh my god the rim looks like the gulf of mexico.

This team isn't going to ground it out in the post. They have to keep shooting.

 

[Catreporter]

Comparing Collins to Carmody is a waste of time. Comparing Collins to the group of four NU coaches, the modern era coaches, isn't.

When the '16 recruits walk on to campus Collins will have done something I thought impossible at NU. Three four star forwards and one four star center will be on the roster. Never thought I'd see that.

Collins is coming along fine as a coach, the staff is terrific. Great camaraderie, the kids seem to communicate well.

On shooting. With pure shooters the misses don't matter as Tre said after the game. You can miss six in a row and then hit one and oh my god the rim looks like the gulf of mexico.

This team isn't going to ground it out in the post. They have to keep shooting.

Comparing Collins to Carmody is a waste of time. Comparing Collins to the group of four NU coaches, the modern era coaches, isn't.

When the '16 recruits walk on to campus Collins will have done something I thought impossible at NU. Three four star forwards and one four star center will be on the roster. Never thought I'd see that.

Collins is coming along fine as a coach, the staff is terrific. Great camaraderie, the kids seem to communicate well.

On shooting. With pure shooters the misses don't matter as Tre said after the game. You can miss six in a row and then hit one and oh my god the rim looks like the gulf of mexico.

This team isn't going to ground it out in the post. They have to keep shooting.

Plus-1. This team will have to hit a good percentage of their threes to beat the better teams in the Big 10. I love the way Collins continues to urge his shooters to keep firing. At one point when Lumpkin passed a up a wide open three and lost the ball on a drive, Collins motioned for Sanjay to shoot it. And he put Falzon back into the game in overtime even though he hadn't made a shot all day (most of them open looks) and look what happened.

 

[NUThump]

Ash didn't play yesterday. Was/is he hurt?

He played the last 4 seconds of the game.

 

[NJCat83588]

He played the last 4 seconds of the game.

Thanks. Didn't see him, but did see Charlie Hall.

 

[ToledoCat]

I will take the better recruiting any day. Our best athlete Law got hurt so we miss some athletic ability... Lindsey has it and will develop. If CC keeps getting 4 stars and a couple of top 150 players each year and we will make the same move that Xavier and Butler have made. We will be a winning bubble team competing for tourney bids.. The offense did help make us a tough team to face and helped compete against better teams... CC is going to play straight up style that recruits prefer - lots of 3s - so that will be hard and leave us vulnerable to off nights. Still program is way better.. A great hire

 

[ToledoCat]

PS we do still have some of the weaknesses called out - when your hitting threes those don't seem as bad.. I never thought Sanjay could develop the offensive game needed to really help. I think he can develop that. Piared with Law and Falzon - we will be good at forward next year. Need our PG recruit to bring some quickness at backup point.

 

[CommodoresAndCats]

A retired college coach told me that college basketball is 70% recruiting, 20% coaching and 10% luck. I wouldn't say Collins really does anything spectacular as a coach, but he is recruiting strong talent and putting them in positions to win. So far we've had some luck winning the close games, but the team is able to pull them out because of talent.

 

[Medill90]

A retired college coach told me that college basketball is 70% recruiting, 20% coaching and 10% luck. I wouldn't say Collins really does anything spectacular as a coach, but he is recruiting strong talent and putting them in positions to win. So far we've had some luck winning the close games, but the team is able to pull them out because of talent.

The psychology and mindset of the players is another critical piece and that relates to coaching. It's really tough to win at basketball unless you think you will and expect to win.

Collins talked about the look on the faces after the North Carolina game. They expected to compete and win. He's built that within his system pretty quickly, two and a half years.

I'd say that Collins is starting to be a little underrated with the X's and O's. I might be blanking, but there have been no major errors the last couple of years. He's pretty quick to call them out when there are errors.

But I think where he's off the charts is with the psychological aspect and building a mindset across a roster where the team expects to outplay its opponent. Not because they are better basketball players. Because they play better basketball and are locked in as a team. And hats off to Tre for this. I nit pick his play but no one works harder and no one brings it against top competition like Tre. Alex too.

 

[Mr. Stupor]

Anybody who can get Northwestern basketball players (I will say it again slowly so it sinks in - North...western ... Basket... Ball... Players...) to be honestly dejected and kissed at themselves after a loss to North Carolina (also worth repeating) -- because they expected to win -- is doing something very, very right.

 

[hdhntr1]

Yes, I saw it and that's my point. We're reliant on the 3 just like we were in the PO. When we don't "make shots" we have no plan B. What were we in regulation 4-25 from 3? We're not going to win many big ten games unless we get hot from 3.

How many offensive rebounds did DePaul get in crunch time? Didn't count but it was too many.

We only scored 18 from 3 and still managed to put up 78 pts. We missed a lot and still won. Have you noticed how many points we get inside the paint?We held them to under 35% shooting (we can play D which BC teams never could) DePaul was 6 for 11 from 3 in the first half and we held them to 1/12 in the second and OT. The combination of poor shooting and a lot of missed 3s tends to lead to extra O rebounds. We still out rebounded them and got a few O RBs of our own. And did you see that all of our bigs were in foul trouble? Lumpkin 4 fouls, Tap 4, Olah 4, Skelly 4 and Lindsey 5. We have much greater depth and needed it. (BC would rarely get beyond the 7th guy). Yet we still won.

 

[EvanstonCat]

A retired college coach told me that college basketball is 70% recruiting, 20% coaching and 10% luck. I wouldn't say Collins really does anything spectacular as a coach, but he is recruiting strong talent and putting them in positions to win. So far we've had some luck winning the close games, but the team is able to pull them out because of talent.

I'll warrant that coach never done watched Hoosiers.

 

[clarificationcat]

Ok, seriously, what has changed from Carmody to Collins? Yes, recruiting looks better, but I'm not seeing it on the court. Here is what I see:
1. a team without the lateral speed to stay in front of the man on defene
2. a team that is poor at rebounding
3. a team that is reliant on 3 pointers... and maybe if they go in, the middle will open up a little.

What am I not seeing?

 

[rwhitney014]

Don't look now, but DePaul is routing ranked GW on the same floor we just won on.

Nothing for granted, especially this wacky season.

 

[JournCat]

I'll warrant that coach never done watched Hoosiers.

What do you mean? Dale's biggest basketball-related move was getting back Chitwood despite the objections of his family. That's great recruiting. (Also worth mentioning Chitwood called off his first final play in the championship, speaking of coaching ...)

 

[hdhntr1]

I'll warrant that coach never done watched Hoosiers.

First Hoosiers was HS and not college and second he had to get the best player back on the team. Xs and Os can help improve a team, but if the talent is not there, you won't get very far. Think Wooden would have won all the NCAA Championships if he had NUs lineup that BC had put together? Now if you have a close level of talent, the coach can make a difference but if you don't have the talent, a good coach might win you a few extra games.

 

[Katatonic]

Ok, seriously, what has changed from Carmody to Collins? Yes, recruiting looks better, but I'm not seeing it on the court. Here is what I see:
1. a team without the lateral speed to stay in front of the man on defene
2. a team that is poor at rebounding
3. a team that is reliant on 3 pointers... and maybe if they go in, the middle will open up a little.

What am I not seeing?

Don't think there is too much of a difference right now w/ Law injured and Lindsey and Ash still needing time to develop.

Should be different going forward w/ Law returning and the additions of Pardon, Brown and Rap.

I believe the BC v CC discussions are always entertaining. CC currently has a much deeper team than any in the BC era. CC has 2 players that can create their own shot and a host of spot up shooters that usually provide secondary scoring. CC has potentially better rebounding than BC ever had but still lacks the overall athletic ability of great rebounding teams.

Assuming full health/eligibility - BC's 2012-13 injury-riddled team was probably as deep.

Current team full health:

1 - BMac
2 - Demps
3 - Law
4 - Lumpkin
5 - Olah

Off the bench: JvZ, Tap, Falzon, Lindsey, Skelly, Ash

2012-13 team full health:

1 - Sobo
2 - Cobb
3 - Crawford
4 - Swop
5 - Olah

Off the bench: Hearn, Marco, Lumpkin, Demps, Turner, KA

Would give the edge in overall skills to the current bench, but the best player coming off the bench would be Hearn (basically another starter - wouldn't have been surprised if we had seen a Cobb/Hearn combo at guard).

IBC won games with unusual offensive and defensive schemes. I have no idea whether his record would have been better with today's talent. He was able to be occasionally competitive against superior teams because of coaching brilliance but could never reach the "Holy Grail" of an NCAA tournament appearance because talent ultimately prevails

BC won games with poor talent and great coaching. CC is attempting to win games with improved talent and more traditional coaching. Only time will tell if NU can assemble the necessary talent to be consistently competitive.

It's interesting to note that CC's best defensive team was when he had a 90% Cobb, Crawford and Lumpkin on the floor.

BC's focus was more on the offensive-end, but a large reason why his teams struggled defensively was b/c he didn't have the defensive talent. But that 2012-13 would have changed that.

BC would have had Cobb, Crawford, Swop, Hearn and a young Lumpkin leading his defense.

CC would have gotten more out of them defensively, but their abilities alone, would have improved the D under BC.

Presently, Demps is not the defender that a 90% Cobb was and Law is out - so only one spot where the D has been as good or better (Lumpkin's); putting aside that Olah's D has improved.

As I had stated before, the 'Cats are missing Law's D more than his offense (even tho his O would have helped the inconsistencies and maybe the over-reliance on the outside jumper).

2. DePaul's scouting report was to guard McIntosh and Demps tight so in the second half, they adjusted and took the ball to the hole. McIntosh was 0 for shooting from the outside, but made many key plays taking the ball to the hoop and passing to open guys inside. That is a huge difference from prior regime's PGs who did not have the skills to take the ball to the hole. From reports of incoming PG, Isiah Brown, he can also take the ball to the hole which opens shots from the outside;

Um, so Juice couldn't take it to the hole? lol

3. Falzon is a player and even though he was 0 for 6 from the 3 pt. lane in regulation, he made some key plays on offense and defense and made the two key 3's to win the game. Falzon is a 4-star player who never would have considered NU under the prior regime or the prior regime would never have made the effort to get him. That is a huge difference since he will be a huge factor in this year's team and future year's. This coaching staff addresses issues and gets players who fill the void. They need a PF who is 6'8"-6'10" and they recruit Skelly and Falzon. They need a more athletic backup center and recruit JVZ (fingers crossed that his health improves)

Again, your over-infatuation w/ stars.

And that's not true at all - the prior regime did recruit various 4* or top 150 recruits, but had a tough time being seriously considered until towards the end (after the program had made numerous trips to the NIT) - such as Roscoe Allen, etc.

The problem was landing them - but did start to do that towards the end w/ KA and Sina.

Was also in the mix for a 4* PF Reid Travis who is a traditonal 4.

The reasons why NU is better is the coaching, development of players and recruiting. NU would never have 4-star players like Falzon, Law, and RI high 3-star players McIntosh, Benson and solid three-star players - Lindsey, Skelly, Brown, Pardon and Ash under prior regime because they never would have made the efforts to get those players and some of those players have stated on record that they would not have chosen to go to NU under prior regime.

While CC has improved recruiting, it's silly to think that recruiting wouldn't continued to improve under BC (tho, not to the extent under CC).

BC was just starting to reap the rewards on the recruiting front from continual trips to the NIT.

 

[Walker Fan]

Here we go again. Being in the mix for players does not mean anything. If you can not see that NU is in a much better place as a program now than BC, I can not help you. We were in the mix for Frank Kaminsky too and BC missed a campus visit and for other reasons and he chose UW. Kaminsky went to UW and sat on the bench for two years when he could have started from Day 1 at NU and then led UW to 2 Final 4s and was national POY last season and is the best UW player in the past 20 years. We should have been in the mix for Fred Van Vleet whose dad wanted NU and Illinois to take a look at him, but NU did not do so and Illinois tried him out and said they were set at PG with Tracey Abrams. He had a 3.7 GPA from Rockford. Google the Sun Times article on Van Vleet. Van Vleet took Wichita St. to the Final 4 and led Wichita St. to an undefeated record and lost to the College Minor League team in UK.

I liked Juice Thompson and his effort and story out of Lincoln Park HS, but at 5'9", he did not take the ball to the hoop as successfully and did not have the penetration skills or tear drop shot of McIntosh as a 6'3" PG who was a 2-time high school state champion and his game has improved as much from freshman to sophomore season.

As for your focus on comparing the rosters, BMac is and was more talented than Sobo. That was evident over the past two seasons when he was on the bench and McIntosh started over him. Demps has developed into a better player than Cobb (as a junior and senior due to health issues). Falzon is more talented than Swop from the outside and shown flashes of being able to mix it up down low. Olah as a senior is much more developed than as a frosh. As for the bench, Turner was never a Big 10 level or college player. Marco was a one trick pony as a 3-pt shooter and Lindsey has a much better all around game. Skelly, Tap and JVZ are more talented backups than anyone on BC's bench. BC never recruited a PF or backup C like Skelly and JVZ and as a result forced Shurna and Crawford to play out of position for years. That was always exposed in the rigorous Big 10 season.

As for recruiting more talented players, that is the object of sports, particularly college sports. How do Kansas, UK, Duke, UNC, etc. compete every year for championships? They recruit successfully the most top ranked high school players (top 30 or McDonald's All-Americans) in the nation. How does OSU in football dominate the Big 10 every season or just about every season? They have 3 or 4 times the number of 4 and 5 star recruits as any other Big 10 football school. Look it up. Recruiting as mentioned very wisely by another poster is a large percentage of how a team and coach is valued and BC never did a satisfactory job at this to achieve sustained success in the Big 10. Instead the perception was created that it was the facilities as opposed to the reality that at NU, we offer the best combination of athletics and academics in the Big 10 and our players are in the process of making their mark and history at NU as opposed to sitting as the 10th to 12th man on a school like MSU (Alvin Ellis, can you hear me?).

 

[Mr. Stupor]

Don't think there is too much of a difference right now w/ Law injured and Lindsey and Ash still needing time to develop.

Should be different going forward w/ Law returning and the additions of Pardon, Brown and Rap.




Assuming full health/eligibility - BC's 2012-13 injury-riddled team was probably as deep.

Current team full health:

1 - BMac
2 - Demps
3 - Law
4 - Lumpkin
5 - Olah

Off the bench: JvZ, Tap, Falzon, Lindsey, Skelly, Ash

2012-13 team full health:

1 - Sobo
2 - Cobb
3 - Crawford
4 - Swop
5 - Olah

Off the bench: Hearn, Marco, Lumpkin, Demps, Turner, KA

Would give the edge in overall skills to the current bench, but the best player coming off the bench would be Hearn (basically another starter - wouldn't have been surprised if we had seen a Cobb/Hearn combo at guard).




It's interesting to note that CC's best defensive team was when he had a 90% Cobb, Crawford and Lumpkin on the floor.

BC's focus was more on the offensive-end, but a large reason why his teams struggled defensively was b/c he didn't have the defensive talent. But that 2012-13 would have changed that.

BC would have had Cobb, Crawford, Swop, Hearn and a young Lumpkin leading his defense.

CC would have gotten more out of them defensively, but their abilities alone, would have improved the D under BC.

Presently, Demps is not the defender that a 90% Cobb was and Law is out - so only one spot where the D has been as good or better (Lumpkin's); putting aside that Olah's D has improved.

As I had stated before, the 'Cats are missing Law's D more than his offense (even tho his O would have helped the inconsistencies and maybe the over-reliance on the outside jumper).




Um, so Juice couldn't take it to the hole? lol



Again, your over-infatuation w/ stars.

And that's not true at all - the prior regime did recruit various 4* or top 150 recruits, but had a tough time being seriously considered until towards the end (after the program had made numerous trips to the NIT) - such as Roscoe Allen, etc.

The problem was landing them - but did start to do that towards the end w/ KA and Sina.

Was also in the mix for a 4* PF Reid Travis who is a traditonal 4.




While CC has improved recruiting, it's silly to think that recruiting wouldn't continued to improve under BC (tho, not to the extent under CC).

BC was just starting to reap the rewards on the recruiting front from continual trips to the NIT.

What's silly is to even suggest that BC was getting better at recruiting. He was clearly and demonstrably getting worse. He didn't even show up to meet Kaminaky. Didn't even show up. So please, stop the revisionist nonsense about BC. He didn't even BOTHER to recruit, let alone get better at it...

 

[Medill90]

I think NU was getting better at recruiting, not the coach, necessarily. The NIT's and 20 win seasons had Tavaris in the mix for some special players. Would NU have closed the deal? No idea, but it was trending up.

On Kaminsky, he should have been treated special because his mom and uncle are NU sports royalty. If Jim Stack's nephew sucks at bball but shows up on a campus visit, you friggin make the effort to see him and make his family feel great about the visit. That's what you do with the kids of alums.

But this notion that NU passed on a clear NCAA player of the year is bogus. Bo Ryan could not have predicted the growth in Kaminsky's game. Kaminsky had grown from a two guard to a forward when he made his visit. And then kept growing a la Anthony Davis. And while his teammate and classmate Sobo was headed to NU and at the time and was a bigger get at that time, word was that Big Frank was just fine finding another guard to play with.

What happens from here forward is what's important to me. I don't think the ceiling has been higher since the 60's.

 

[Turk]

Ok, seriously, what has changed from Carmody to Collins? Yes, recruiting looks better, but I'm not seeing it on the court. Here is what I see:
1. a team without the lateral speed to stay in front of the man on defene
2. a team that is poor at rebounding
3. a team that is reliant on 3 pointers... and maybe if they go in, the middle will open up a little.

What am I not seeing?

Losses.

Embrace the wins and give Collins credit and can you please get past Carmody already? Really Shakes?

 

[Mr. Stupor]

I think NU was getting better at recruiting, not the coach, necessarily. The NIT's and 20 win seasons had Tavaris in the mix for some special players. Would NU have closed the deal? No idea, but it was trending up.

On Kaminsky, he should have been treated special because his mom and uncle are NU sports royalty. If Jim Stack's nephew sucks at bball but shows up on a campus visit, you friggin make the effort to see him and make his family feel great about the visit. That's what you do with the kids of alums.

But this notion that NU passed on a clear NCAA player of the year is bogus. Bo Ryan could not have predicted the growth in Kaminsky's game. Kaminsky had grown from a two guard to a forward when he made his visit. And then kept growing a la Anthony Davis. And while his teammate and classmate Sobo was headed to NU and at the time and was a bigger get at that time, word was that Big Frank was just fine finding another guard to play with.

What happens from here forward is what's important to me. I don't think the ceiling has been higher since the 60's.

That's an astounding straw man argument to throw out. Just astounding. Who EVER said that NU didn't bother to show up for a NCAA player of the year? Who? Who made that argument that you took so much enjoyment in refuting? Nobody! You're literally making up arguments to refute that were never made in the first place....

 

[Gladeskat]

That's an astounding straw man argument to throw out. Just astounding. Who EVER said that NU didn't bother to show up for a NCAA player of the year? Who? Who made that argument that you took so much enjoyment in refuting? Nobody! You're literally making up arguments to refute that were never made in the first place....

It's common knowledge. Was Frank a "clear NCAA POY" when he was recruited? No.

"Frank and Mary took an unofficial visit to Northwestern a month before he chose Wisconsin. It was, as Mary put it, "kind of awkward" because coach Bill Carmody was away on a family trip.

Top assistant Tavaras Hardy (now at Georgetown) took Frank and Mary around campus and into Carmody's office. Via speaker phone, the head coach offered a scholarship.

To some, it's more proof that Carmody was an indifferent recruiter who often left the heavy lifting to his assistants. In this case, in all likelihood, it would not have mattered."


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...nsin-basketball-spt-0116-20150115-column.html

 

[Mr. Stupor]

It's common knowledge. Was Frank a "clear NCAA POY" when he was recruited? No.

"Frank and Mary took an unofficial visit to Northwestern a month before he chose Wisconsin. It was, as Mary put it, "kind of awkward" because coach Bill Carmody was away on a family trip.

Top assistant Tavaras Hardy (now at Georgetown) took Frank and Mary around campus and into Carmody's office. Via speaker phone, the head coach offered a scholarship.

To some, it's more proof that Carmody was an indifferent recruiter who often left the heavy lifting to his assistants. In this case, in all likelihood, it would not have mattered."


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...nsin-basketball-spt-0116-20150115-column.html

What's common knowledge? That Kaminsky wasn't projected to be all-world as a recruit? No shit. Thanks for making my point!! My point was that nobody has ever said that. That's the straw man argument.

 

[Gladeskat]

What's common knowledge? That Kaminsky wasn't projected to be all-world as a recruit? No shit. Thanks for making my point!! My point was that nobody has ever said that. That's the straw man argument.

Gotcha.

 

[olshin]

How many other coaches in major conferences would have been out of town when the nephew of one of the top 5 players in school history was on campus? You can't just not "get" recruiting and be successful long term.

 

[Medill90]

That's an astounding straw man argument to throw out. Just astounding. Who EVER said that NU didn't bother to show up for a NCAA player of the year? Who? Who made that argument that you took so much enjoyment in refuting? Nobody! You're literally making up arguments to refute that were never made in the first place....

I spoke to an athletic department staffer this week who made this very argument.

And I'm pretty sure it's been on this board about a thousand times.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Are u really trying to argue with me that Hoosiers was the story about how the most talented team won the Indiana State Championship? That the formula was 70% talent 20% coaching and 10% luck?

I'll warrant you never done watched the movie Hoosiers.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Don't think there is too much of a difference right now w/ Law injured and Lindsey and Ash still needing time to develop.

Should be different going forward w/ Law returning and the additions of Pardon, Brown and Rap.




Assuming full health/eligibility - BC's 2012-13 injury-riddled team was probably as deep.

Current team full health:

1 - BMac
2 - Demps
3 - Law
4 - Lumpkin
5 - Olah

Off the bench: JvZ, Tap, Falzon, Lindsey, Skelly, Ash

2012-13 team full health:

1 - Sobo
2 - Cobb
3 - Crawford
4 - Swop
5 - Olah

Off the bench: Hearn, Marco, Lumpkin, Demps, Turner, KA

Would give the edge in overall skills to the current bench, but the best player coming off the bench would be Hearn (basically another starter - wouldn't have been surprised if we had seen a Cobb/Hearn combo at guard).




It's interesting to note that CC's best defensive team was when he had a 90% Cobb, Crawford and Lumpkin on the floor.

BC's focus was more on the offensive-end, but a large reason why his teams struggled defensively was b/c he didn't have the defensive talent. But that 2012-13 would have changed that.

BC would have had Cobb, Crawford, Swop, Hearn and a young Lumpkin leading his defense.

CC would have gotten more out of them defensively, but their abilities alone, would have improved the D under BC.

Presently, Demps is not the defender that a 90% Cobb was and Law is out - so only one spot where the D has been as good or better (Lumpkin's); putting aside that Olah's D has improved.

As I had stated before, the 'Cats are missing Law's D more than his offense (even tho his O would have helped the inconsistencies and maybe the over-reliance on the outside jumper).




Um, so Juice couldn't take it to the hole? lol



Again, your over-infatuation w/ stars.

And that's not true at all - the prior regime did recruit various 4* or top 150 recruits, but had a tough time being seriously considered until towards the end (after the program had made numerous trips to the NIT) - such as Roscoe Allen, etc.

The problem was landing them - but did start to do that towards the end w/ KA and Sina.

Was also in the mix for a 4* PF Reid Travis who is a traditonal 4.




While CC has improved recruiting, it's silly to think that recruiting wouldn't continued to improve under BC (tho, not to the extent under CC).

BC was just starting to reap the rewards on the recruiting front from continual trips to the NIT.

You sir are baked out of your gourd.

 

[EvanstonCat]

What's common knowledge? That Kaminsky wasn't projected to be all-world as a recruit? No shit. Thanks for making my point!! My point was that nobody has ever said that. That's the straw man argument.

What's ridiculous isn't that he didn't show for an all-world recruit. What is ridiculous is that whatever he was he was world's better than most everyone else we were bringing in under the Carmody regime, and certainly the likes of Chier Ajou and Mike Turner whom Carmody, and still the man couldn't bother to show. It's not this one incident that damn's BC's recruiting, it's his whole piece of work. Just listen to Vic Law's dad or the CPL coach that publicly blasted BC for his indifference and it's impact on NU's recruiting prospects in Chicago. Pine for his cute little offense if you want, but how anyone can possibly defend BC's recruiting don't make the sense that God gave a mule.