Kids Played Hard Tonight

[Pete Purple]

Thanks all. I'm still on the west coast traveling but just watched the replay. I know this is far from best team we play this year but l really liked that:
- We showed up to play
- We have depth - obviously a key ingredient
- We battled back and won in OT
- Nice timeouts and coaching adjustments

Looking forward to what each game brings, but I'm pumped! Regardless of the Kenpom and other rankings, I really like our chances of either a season to be proud of, or our NCAA chances, or both.

 

[NJCat83588]

Since there is confusion about where NU stands in relation to last year, let me try to clarify why this team is better:
1. McIntosh has taken a big step in development and wants the ball in his hands with the game on the line;
2. Demps continues to progress. However, since he is playing 35 plus minutes, he is running out of gas in last couple of minutes;
3. Backup Center Van Zegeren is huge improvement over last year's backup center in Kreisberg;
4. Depth: This team is 9-10 deep which means if players are having an off night, we can sub capable Big 10 level players;
5. Falzon has shown his ability to be a stretch 4 even though he has slumped in last 3-4 games;
6. Skelly has shown an ability to spark the team on offense and defense when he comes in and will be needed to guard PFs in conference play;
7. Lumpkin is a defensive stopper and can effectively guard 1-4 (PG, SG, SF and some undersized PFs). Stopping PGs and SGs is a change from last year.

The two OT wins v. Columbia and Va. Tech are very similar to the Central Michigan and Georgia Tech games last season. But the difference is NU lost those games last season. NU went 9-4 in non-conference last year and this year looks like we could go 3 wins better in the non-conference. Also, NU got blown out in the Northern Iowa game last season 61-42 and NU played a much tighter game with UNC.

Will the loss of Law hurt this team? Yes, but they have the depth to still have a solid season.

Not sure where there is confusion about where this team stands relative to last year. I completely agree that this team looks better than the 2014-15 edition. But last year, the Cats were not a good team. A good team doesn't lose 10 consecutive conference games, or get blown out at home by Central Michigan. So I'd like to see where anyone has said that the current edition is no better than last year. That would be crazy for all the reasons you listed.

 

[Walker Fan]

Sorry to be Debbie downer, but I don't see a big jump this year from the last couple of seasons. Maybe the loss of Vic Law is hurting the rotation more than I thought it would.

Geez, can you help me out and tell me who typed those words right after NU won on the road against a power 5 school?

That quote needed to be responded to because it does not take into account the great strides that NU has made from last year to this year particularly on offense and we saw glimpses on defense in OT particularly with Lumpkin's contributions. We are shooting much better (40% from 3 pt FG), our players are making big strides in development (see McIntosh, Demps, Skelly and Lindsey in flashes and yes, Lumpkin who is developing and filling the void of the loss of Law), and our new additions are filling major voids from last year's team (back up center big upgrade (JVZ) in backup center and one of the more talented stretch 4 PFs in Falzon who has a well rounded game).

 

[Katatonic]

We are shooting much better (40% from 3 pt FG), our players are making big strides in development (see McIntosh, Demps, Skelly and Lindsey in flashes and yes, Lumpkin who is developing and filling the void of the loss of Law), and our new additions are filling major voids from last year's team (back up center big upgrade (JVZ) in backup center and one of the more talented stretch 4 PFs in Falzon who has a well rounded game).

Don't think Lumpkin is doing anything that he couldn't do last season; always felt that Lumpkin overly focused on D and rb'ing and put contributing on O too many times on the back-burner (not that he was going to be the #3 or 4 scoring option), passing up on shots.

W/ the loss of Law, maybe Lumpkin feels the need to do more on that end.

Would like to see Lumpkin score 8-10 pts/gm, but figure we'll still see times when he doesn't show up much on the scoreboard.

In a way, Lumpkin has become a larger rendition of Nash.

Even w/ the loss of Law, this team is deeper - but consistency is still an issue (but w/ the depth, CC can play the guys w/ the hot hand, an option he did not have the last 2 seasons).

 

[NJCat83588]

Don't think Lumpkin is doing anything that he couldn't do last season; always felt that Lumpkin overly focused on D and rb'ing and put contributing on O too many times on the back-burner (not that he was going to be the #3 or 4 scoring option), passing up on shots.

W/ the loss of Law, maybe Lumpkin feels the need to do more on that end.

Listening to the Collins interview after the Tech game, he said Sanjay tried to do too much last season and kind of forgot what he did best. This year they want him to concentrate on his defense. His 3 in OT was a great shot because he took it with his body a feet set. He didn't try to do too much or get off a shot out of rhythym. So Collins has the opposite opinion on Sanjay from yours.

 

[Walker Fan]

Sanjay's problem is that he did not have much of a shot coming to NU and has worked on it. The other problem is that he had to play out of position and guard PFs all the time in his first two seasons and he did not have much lift on his jump shot at the end of the games and games left him wide open for baseline jumpers which he could not hit. Law was a 7 rpg guy, so he needs to compensate for that loss. He also will need to hit the wide open jumper or 3-pointer from the baseline which he was not able to go the past two years. Lumpkin is a 6'5" strong defensive player who can guard PG, SG, SF and some undersized PFs. If he can duplicate his performance from Tuesday night he will make NU a lot better in conference play and against DePaul and Chicago State who pose some problems for NU in the non-conference.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Sanjay's problem is that he did not have much of a shot coming to NU and has worked on it. The other problem is that he had to play out of position and guard PFs all the time in his first two seasons and he did not have much lift on his jump shot at the end of the games and games left him wide open for baseline jumpers which he could not hit. Law was a 7 rpg guy, so he needs to compensate for that loss. He also will need to hit the wide open jumper or 3-pointer from the baseline which he was not able to go the past two years. Lumpkin is a 6'5" strong defensive player who can guard PG, SG, SF and some undersized PFs. If he can duplicate his performance from Tuesday night he will make NU a lot better in conference play and against DePaul and Chicago State who pose some problems for NU in the non-conference.

If Chicago State poses some problems for NU in the non-conference, we are gonna be in some serious trouble when we get to the B1G

 

[FeliSilvestris]

>Cats are just not very good this year.
Bottom line, we won on the road in the ACC with a cold second half from our best player and no clear third option. Bad teams don't do that.

Last season VT ended dead last in the ACC with a .111 winning percentage (ranked about #180 nationally). Unless they had an off-season major transformation (possible but unlikely) they are a very weak team, at least at the major conference level. If a team needs an OT to beat a very weak team that team can be said to be "not very good". Granted anyone can have an off game, but based on other games, it does not appear that this game was atypical (for either team).

 

[Gladeskat]

Felis, have you ever stuck a knife in a power outlet? It's fun! Try it.

 

[Medill90]

Unless they had an off-season major transformation (possible but unlikely) they are a very weak team, at least at the major conference level.

VT added three 4* freshmen and three JUCO transfers. So, yes, a major transformation since last year.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

VT added three 4* freshmen and three JUCO transfers. So, yes, a major transformation since last year.

And they lost... 5 players (including graduations). Most teams lose and gain several players ever off season. The question is whether they became A LOT better in balance (net) over the previous season. That is, have the 3 true froshs and 2 JUCO's ALREADY replaced the departed contributions, AND exceeded that by a substantial margin, so that a team that ended dead last of 15 in the ACC is now much better... don't see any evidence of that...in fact, in the early going, based on non-con record, they are 14/15 in the ACC.

 

[Katatonic]

Listening to the Collins interview after the Tech game, he said Sanjay tried to do too much last season and kind of forgot what he did best. This year they want him to concentrate on his defense. His 3 in OT was a great shot because he took it with his body a feet set. He didn't try to do too much or get off a shot out of rhythym. So Collins has the opposite opinion on Sanjay from yours.

Don't think CC was upset about Lumpkin's scoring last season as he was one of the most efficient scorers for the 'Cats w/ a .526 FG% including .371 from 3-range.

And Lumpkin really didn't take that many shots - only 95 which was 22 less than the prior season.

From what it seems, CC was disappointed in Lumpkin's effort in physically going for rebounds, etc. rather than what Lumpkin did on the offensive end.

CC wants all his players to take the open shot.

Sanjay's problem is that he did not have much of a shot coming to NU and has worked on it. The other problem is that he had to play out of position and guard PFs all the time in his first two seasons and he did not have much lift on his jump shot at the end of the games and games left him wide open for baseline jumpers which he could not hit.

While not a shooter per se, Lumpkin play wing in HS and was one of the leading scorers for his team, so it's not as if had hadn't been a scorer.

Also, Lumpkin had the 2nd highest FG% last season (next to Tap), as well as the 2nd highest 3P% (again, next to Tap).

His shooting % for this season thus far are a little lower.

 

[NJCat83588]

Don't think CC was upset about Lumpkin's scoring last season as he was one of the most efficient scorers for the 'Cats w/ a .526 FG% including .371 from 3-range.

Did you actually listen to the interview before you decided what Collins thought about his play last season? Sheesh.

 

[Walker Fan]

Katatonic,
1. Just about everyone of scholarship players from Power Conference Leagues were the leading scorers of their respective high school teams;
2. Using last season's statistics such as effective FG percentage from Sanjay are misleading because of the small number of shots he did take. Based on my recollection, there were many games that he did not contribute offensively in Big 10 play which allowed his man to cheat off him (e.g. Brandon Dawson) and help out and clog things in the middle for Olah. So in effect, against some teams it was like playing 5 on 4 on offense.

Of the returning players who averaged 20 mpg, Lumpkin scored 4.3 ppg (Demps - 32.6 mpg, 12.5 ppg, Olah - 29.4 mpg, 11.7 ppg, McIntosh - 33.3 mpg, 11.4 ppg). Also, if you look at Lumpkins' performance in Big 10 games, his offensive production would go down;
3. Lumpkin is our best defender and will be key in getting rebounds and filling in the voids that Law's absence brings. If he can make a couple of buckets of game in Big 10 play that would be key bonus and could help us win some more Big 10 games.

 

[CappyNU]

Don't think CC was upset about Lumpkin's scoring last season as he was one of the most efficient scorers for the 'Cats w/ a .526 FG% including .371 from 3-range.

And Lumpkin really didn't take that many shots - only 95 which was 22 less than the prior season.

From what it seems, CC was disappointed in Lumpkin's effort in physically going for rebounds, etc. rather than what Lumpkin did on the offensive end.

CC wants all his players to take the open shot.





While not a shooter per se, Lumpkin play wing in HS and was one of the leading scorers for his team, so it's not as if had hadn't been a scorer.

Also, Lumpkin had the 2nd highest FG% last season (next to Tap), as well as the 2nd highest 3P% (again, next to Tap).

His shooting % for this season thus far are a little lower.

Sanjay, in 18 Big Ten games last season, averaged 2.3 ppg. I don't care how efficient one is (and he really wasn't, shooting 54% from the FT line, 44% from 2-pt range and 35% from 3 in conference play), it makes no difference if you average one basket per game.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

The question was whether or not the team has undergone a transformation. It has.

I'll leave the moderators to handle the second part of your post. I suppose they will do so.

By transformation I MEANT whether they had transformed themselves over an offseason from a team that finished 15 of 15 in the ACC to one that was at least competitive at the major conference level. The answer is that there is no evidence of that.

A bad team can bring as many newcomers as allowed by the rules, but if the newcomers do not improve significantly on the performance of those they replace the team will remain a bad team, or can even get worse. Which is what is relevant to this conversation. Who the heck cares what the NAMES of the players involved are...the issue is their performance, isn't it?

Bottom line, NU barely beat a team that finished last season 15 of 15 in the ACC (ranked about 180 nationally). And there is no evidence that team has improved much from last year. That is the key.

 

[Catreporter]

I'll leave the moderators to handle the second part of your post. I suppose they will do so.

By transformation I MEANT whether they had transformed themselves over an offseason from a team that finished 15 of 15 in the ACC to one that was at least competitive at the major conference level. The answer is that there is no evidence of that.

A bad team can bring as many newcomers as allowed by the rules, but if the newcomers do not improve significantly on the performance of those they replace the team will remain a bad team, or can even get worse. Which is what is relevant to this conversation. Who the heck cares what the NAMES of the players involved are...the issue is their performance, isn't it?

Bottom line, NU barely beat a team that finished last season 15 of 15 in the ACC (ranked about 180 nationally). And there is no evidence that team has improved much from last year. That is the key.

Like the football team, we've been beating the teams we should, albeit by close margins. Apparently that's not good enough for you, but it's not always easy to do, as witness the number of big upsets already this season. There was another one last night. Our opening opponent, UMAss Lowell, won at Boston College.

 

[NJCat83588]

Like the football team, we've been beating the teams we should, albeit by close margins. Apparently that's not good enough for you, but it's not always easy to do, as witness the number of big upsets already this season. There was another one last night. Our opening opponent, UMAss Lowell, won at Boston College.

Wow. BC must be really bad!

 

[mikewebb68]

Wow. BC must be really bad!

OK, they are worse than Virginia Tech....

 

[Catreporter]

OK, they are worse than Virginia Tech....

That "horrible" Va Tech team just won at Radford tonight. And before you say what's the big deal about that, well Radford won by 12 at Penn State and won at Georgetown by 2. The Hokies haven't lost since we beat them. Incidentally, SIU Edwardsville stunned SIU in Carbondale 76-74. We better not take any of the upcoming nonconference home games for granted!

 

[Alan Smithee]

Wow. BC must be really bad!

BC's basketball team got bitten hard by the Chipotle E. coli bug.

They may also be bad.

 

[rwhitney014]

That "horrible" Va Tech team just won at Radford tonight. And before you say what's the big deal about that, well Radford won by 12 at Penn State and won at Georgetown by 2. The Hokies haven't lost since we beat them. Incidentally, SIU Edwardsville stunned SIU in Carbondale 76-74. We better not take any of the upcoming nonconference home games for granted!

Columbia got a road win tonight and Mizzou picked up a W, too. I think UMass-Lowell beat someone decent this week too. These are all good things for the ol' RPI.

 

[NJCat83588]

Columbia got a road win tonight and Mizzou picked up a W, too. I think UMass-Lowell beat someone decent this week too. These are all good things for the ol' RPI.

See above....UM-L beat BC when BC had the Chipotle flu (per Smithee).

 

[NJCat83588]

That "horrible" Va Tech team just won at Radford tonight. And before you say what's the big deal about that, well Radford won by 12 at Penn State and won at Georgetown by 2. The Hokies haven't lost since we beat them. Incidentally, SIU Edwardsville stunned SIU in Carbondale 76-74. We better not take any of the upcoming nonconference home games for granted!

The SIUe win is impressive as SIU was 8-1 coming into the game.

Shocker of the night: Milwaukee beat Wisconsin in Madison Badgers just don't lose in the Kohl Center!

Radford (5-5) has also lost to Siena and James Madison. Columbia needed a last minute shot to beat a 1-6 Manhattan College team. Illinois beat Yale by 4 in U-C.

DePaul won @Drake. Kyle Abrahamson had a night to foget: 1-8 from the floor, 3 points and 3 rebounds, and 5 fouls in 26 minutes. Perhaps he ate at Chipotle before the game! DePaul is now 5-3 and looms as the last tough game for NU before the Big 10 season starts.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

See above....UM-L beat BC when BC had the Chipotle flu (per Smithee).

So? Makes no difference. It's still better for our RPI.

 

[rwhitney014]

So? Makes no difference. It's still better for our RPI.

Exactly. Margin of victory and circumstances don't matter. I suppose a committee could slice and dice this stuff as much as they want to if we're in the conversation come March (that would be lovely!), but having the better RPI because of stuff like that helps us get into the conversation in the first place. Just win, baby.

 

[rwhitney014]

So? Makes no difference. It's still better for our RPI.

For the record, those results took us from 42 to 28 in the RPI, where we currently sit. I suspect we'll drop a bit from our next two games. These two are real clunkers. The two after DePaul aren't much better, but at least that's a road game against a team in the 100s.

 

[NJCat83588]

Our opening opponent, UMAss Lowell, won at Boston College.

But UM-L lost by 20 at home against Boston U tonight.......Chipotle must have been the difference against BC!

 

[mikewebb68]

That "horrible" Va Tech team just won at Radford tonight. And before you say what's the big deal about that, well Radford won by 12 at Penn State and won at Georgetown by 2. The Hokies haven't lost since we beat them. Incidentally, SIU Edwardsville stunned SIU in Carbondale 76-74. We better not take any of the upcoming nonconference home games for granted!

Let's not get carried away with Radford. They also lost to Coastal Carolina, and have a 209 KemPom. I've seen PennState play several times this year and they are bad even by PSU standards. We cannot take any opponent for granted, but if we did do anything but win these games (besides DePaul) handily I would be disappointed.

 

[mikewebb68]

Shocker of the night: Milwaukee beat Wisconsin in Madison Badgers just don't lose in the Kohl Center!

That whole the ":just don't lose in the Kohl Center" rap kinda became history when they lost to Western Illinois (Western Illinois!) earlier this year. They are really struggling to replace last years' lost personnel.

 

[Katatonic]

Did you actually listen to the interview before you decided what Collins thought about his play last season? Sheesh.

Did CC actually state that Lumpkin was trying to do too much on O, such as take too many shots?

"That was around the time when I wasn't doing what I needed to be doing," Lumpkin himself will say when asked about his diminished role. "I wasn't getting many of those tough rebounds. And I wasn't just playing my game. But it didn't discourage me. It just made me work harder. I came to practice every day just trying to do my best to get back on the court, and still push my teammates. I was still here every day busting my butt."

What caused him to not play his game?

"I don't know. Playing tough every possession, I wouldn't say that's an easy thing to do. It's something that, it takes heart to do it. I feel my heart's there now, my heart's in everything right now. That's why I'm just trying to play as hard as I can on every possession."

http://www.nusports.com/news/2015/12/4/MBB_1204153220.aspx?path=mbball


Seems to me it was more Lumpkin not playing the same hard-nose ball and not giving 100% effort in what he was known for doing.

Katatonic,
1. Just about everyone of scholarship players from Power Conference Leagues were the leading scorers of their respective high school teams;
2. Using last season's statistics such as effective FG percentage from Sanjay are misleading because of the small number of shots he did take. Based on my recollection, there were many games that he did not contribute offensively in Big 10 play which allowed his man to cheat off him (e.g. Brandon Dawson) and help out and clog things in the middle for Olah. So in effect, against some teams it was like playing 5 on 4 on offense.

1. I'm well aware of that - at the same time, it still shows that Lumpkin was a good scorer at one point and one of which his HS team relied upon.

2. Also aware that Lumpkin has a smaller sample size, but his shooting % this season is similar to that of last season and better to be a high %/low volume shooter than a high volume/low % shooter.