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Let’s stir the pot

Ash was a dud, Greer doesnt belong, and Brown didnt work out. So we are left with 10 small forwards.
Can't believe these players can lose so many balls off of their dribble. Also if they don't just mishandle the ball it's slapped out of their hands. That's before they even get into their offense. Still think Greer will be a pretty good back-up at the point and remember he could still be playing H.S. ball.
 
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I will await you answer. Pro tip; I warch a LOT of college basketball games.
You can't answer that question until a year or two later when that back-up becomes the starter and we see if they are any good. The point is most good programs have a second PG that is in the wings.
 
You can't answer that question until a year or two later when that back-up becomes the starter and we see if they are any good. The point is most good programs have a second PG that is in the wings.

Most good programs have point guards who think they are good enough to play, but are willing to ride the pine waiting their turn? Can you provide some examples, I would be seriously interested to research. I have seen a TON of examples of PGs who transferred out of programs because they didn't get playing time. and countless examples of teams (Indiana when Phinisse got hurt is just the latest example off the top of my head) who didn't have a backup and suffered for it (Romeo Langford played PG in his absence, and he is not a PG).
 
Illinois has Frazier, Ayo, and Feliz. All three would be the best ball handling guard on NW by a significant margin.

Are they are all point guards? If so, since you're 10-15 and get out rebounded by opponents by over 3 per game, maybe it would have been a better idea to recruit more bigs. Btw, congrats on luckboxing with Giorgio, a guy who nobody but Hofstra wanted, or else your rebounding would be far, far worse. The look on Underwood's face on the Journey when he said "yeah, we got lucky there" was priceless...
 
Are they are all point guards? If so, since you're 10-15 and get out rebounded by opponents by over 3 per game, maybe it would have been a better idea to recruit more bigs. Btw, congrats on luckboxing with Giorgio, a guy who nobody but Hofstra wanted, or else your rebounding would be far, far worse. The look on Underwood's face on the Journey when he said "yeah, we got lucky there" was priceless...

He’s better than any big on your roster, and he’s a freshman. Maybe you should spend more time emailing these suggestions to Collins. Better hurry before he’s an assistant coach back at Duke.
 
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He’s better than any big on your roster, and he’s a freshman. Maybe you should spend more time emailing these suggestions to Collins. Better hurry before he’s an assistant coach back at Duke.

He not better than Pardon, not by a country mile. And teams will figure him out, do not kid yourself. 95% of the time kids are not heavily recruited for a reason. Giorgio could be in that rare 5%, but I will bet against it,
 
He not better than Pardon, not by a country mile. And teams will figure him out, do not kid yourself. 95% of the time kids are not heavily recruited for a reason. Giorgio could be in that rare 5%, but I will bet against it,

We will see which one makes all conference teams at the end of the year. It might not be Giorgi, but it definitely won’t be Pardon.
 
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We will see which one makes all conference teams at the end of the year. It might not be Giorgi, but it definitely won’t be Pardon.

Neither is making all-conference, and let's look at the stats, shall we?

Giorgi: 12.2 PPG 5 RPG, .9 APG
Pardon: 13.6 PPG, 7.8 RPG 1.8 APG

Show me where Giorgio is better again? Free Throws? Oh wait Pardon is better there (65% vs 62%)

Field Goal %? Nah, Pardon better there as well (58% to 55%)

Turnovers Well, you got me, Giorgio does have more of those (58 to 36). Oh wait, that's not a GOOD thing...

Blocks? Nope. Pardon 25, Giorgio 13

Maybe steals? Still no (Pardon 20 Giorgio 12)

Fouls? Giorgio does have WAY more of those (92 to 69) but again, suspect that it not a good thing...

OK so I really need to do some digging here........finally found something he beats Pardon at -- wait for it--- 3 PT FIELD GOALS! 19% for Giorgio to 16% for Pardon, congrats!

Still want to help out here?
 
Neither is making all-conference, and let's look at the stats, shall we?

Giorgi: 12.2 PPG 5 RPG, .9 APG
Pardon: 13.6 PPG, 7.8 RPG 1.8 APG

Show me where Giorgio is better again? Free Throws? Oh wait Pardon is better there (65% vs 62%)

Field Goal %? Nah, Pardon better there as well (58% to 55%)

Turnovers Well, you got me, Giorgio does have more of those (58 to 36). Oh wait, that's not a GOOD thing...

Blocks? Nope. Pardon 25, Giorgio 13

Maybe steals? Still no (Pardon 20 Giorgio 12)

Fouls? Giorgio does have WAY more of those (92 to 69) but again, suspect that it not a good thing...

OK so I really need to do some digging here........finally found something he beats Pardon at -- wait for it--- 3 PT FIELD GOALS! 19% for Giorgio to 16% for Pardon, congrats!

Still want to help out here?

You’re comparing a full season from a senior to a true freshman who was playing HS basketball last year. Averaged over the season Pardon is (barely) better. By Giorgi has gotten better and better as the years gone on. He will dismantle Pardon in a couple weeks.
 
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You’re comparing a full season from a senior to a true freshman who was playing HS basketball last year. Averaged over the season Pardon is (barely) better. By Giorgi has gotten better and better as the years gone on. He will dismantle Pardon in a couple weeks.

As the years have gone on? You're not even making any sense now... I have no crystal ball, but Pardon is way better statistically this year and has had a stellar career, so there's that. Giorgi has had a nice year, but the NCAA is littered with guys who had a great single season, but couldn't put it together for a career You may recall that even the apparent emerging juggernaut that is Illinois has had such players in recent years...

Let's see if Giorgio destroys Pardon, as you put it, in our next matchup. Don't recall the destruction in the first game...
 
He’s better than any big on your roster, and he’s a freshman. Maybe you should spend more time emailing these suggestions to Collins. Better hurry before he’s an assistant coach back at Duke.
Underwood will have Illinois on probation or NCAA sanctions way before Collins decides to leave NU.
 
@Vassar69 is an excellent troll name.
Nice to have the puffy chested Illini back. Haven’t seen them in a decade. Imagine the football board after Lovie takes care of the 3 OOC games.

Never understand why they feel a need to infiltrate and post on another board, but it must be fun for some. If you read their 247 football board it is comical. Maybe I will create an account for yuks and giggles.
 
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Mildcats come out of hibernation for a year to make the NCAA tournament, and their fans act like it's an annual occurrance.
 
Most good programs have point guards who think they are good enough to play, but are willing to ride the pine waiting their turn? Can you provide some examples, I would be seriously interested to research. I have seen a TON of examples of PGs who transferred out of programs because they didn't get playing time. and countless examples of teams (Indiana when Phinisse got hurt is just the latest example off the top of my head) who didn't have a backup and suffered for it (Romeo Langford played PG in his absence, and he is not a PG).

We don’t even run a PG. we run a LG.

I admire your shifting the talk. But let me clarify. I, and many here, feel CCC should have two quality, ballhandling capable guards at a minimum on the roster at all times. Do you agree that is a reasonable expectation?
 
We don’t even run a PG. we run a LG.

I admire your shifting the talk. But let me clarify. I, and many here, feel CCC should have two quality, ballhandling capable guards at a minimum on the roster at all times. Do you agree that is a reasonable expectation?

He's never going to say anything negative about NU sports. And that's okay. I don't know why you bother with him, and I don't know why he bothers with you. It's pointless for both of you, and annoying for us to see the back and forth.
 
We don’t even run a PG. we run a LG.

I admire your shifting the talk. But let me clarify. I, and many here, feel CCC should have two quality, ballhandling capable guards at a minimum on the roster at all times. Do you agree that is a reasonable expectation?

I am researching that now. See my new thread on this today.
 
Nice to have the puffy chested Illini back. Haven’t seen them in a decade. Imagine the football board after Lovie takes care of the 3 OOC games.

Never understand why they feel a need to infiltrate and post on another board, but it must be fun for some. If you read their 247 football board it is comical. Maybe I will create an account for yuks and giggles.

You won’t hear an argument from me. Lovie is terrible. I wasn’t sure if it would be a good hire but I didn’t think it could be as bad as it has been. Any Illinois fan who says otherwise is delusional. They’re destined to keep finishing in the B1G basement, in front of a stadium full of empty seats with a roster that primarily belongs in the MAC and a coach that is in way over his head.

But obviously you already know that, it’s the exact same as Wildcats basketball!
 
Illinois has Frazier, Ayo, and Feliz. All three would be the best ball handling guard on NW by a significant margin.

ayo MIGHT have gotten in to NU of the three with an appeal

there is a CPS kid right now in 2019 that we can't take - with over a 3.0 gpa who has has GREAT connection to 2 NU assistants and the kid would still be an appeal for admission - but we are already using one in 2019 so administration has told the staff, sorry but no
 
Did you even look at the thread? And defune "ballhandling", please, since you moved the goalposts from the oringinal "orher teams carry multiple point guards" duscussion. .

Nope - we don't even carry one - we use a Lead Guard. My interest is and has been for many months (going back to BMac and no competent backup for him), the lack of ball handling guards.

So, then can I assume you agree with me that it is reasonable and possible to carry multiple talented competent ball handling guards on the same roster?
 
ayo MIGHT have gotten in to NU of the three with an appeal

there is a CPS kid right now in 2019 that we can't take - with over a 3.0 gpa who has has GREAT connection to 2 NU assistants and the kid would still be an appeal for admission - but we are already using one in 2019 so administration has told the staff, sorry but no
Haywood, this post about the Public School League player brings up another subject. Are the standards so ridiculously high that Collins and the staff just can’t compete in the Big Ten. I don’t know about you but this sounds like if he have two guys in an almost identical situation, you can only take one. This puts you at a complete disadvantage to the rest of the conference.

Northwestern prides itself in being this magnificent center of liberal education but won’t allow this second kid, from the inner city no less, to get in. I hope they realize they may be destroying an opportunity for poor underprivileged kid to make something of his life. If the so-called eggheads are running the deal we are all wasting our time talking about the team and buying tickets that require a donation. It won’t be long an people like Collins and Phillips will start looking for greener pastures and the eggheads can sit around congratulating each other on their amazing success.
 
Nope - we don't even carry one - we use a Lead Guard. My interest is and has been for many months (going back to BMac and no competent backup for him), the lack of ball handling guards.

So, then can I assume you agree with me that it is reasonable and possible to carry multiple talented competent ball handling guards on the same roster?
Again, I ask you, what is the defintion of "ballhandling". You're saying a lead guard is not a ballhandler, but I suspect that is actually going to weaken you argument when I review guard pay on other teams for players who attempt to meet your undefined criterion. Is it defibed, by, say, assist to turnover ratio? Something else?
 
Again, I ask you, what is the defintion of "ballhandling". You're saying a lead guard is not a ballhandler, but I suspect that is actually going to weaken you argument when I review guard pay on other teams for players who attempt to meet your undefined criterion. Is it defibed, by, say, assist to turnover ratio? Something else?

A guard that can regularly drive to the rim and either finish or successfully dish, or a guard that produces a very good assist to turnover ratio - type of guy that people will describe as having great court vision. IMHO, these are ballhandling guards.
 
Haywood, this post about the Public School League player brings up another subject. Are the standards so ridiculously high that Collins and the staff just can’t compete in the Big Ten. I don’t know about you but this sounds like if he have two guys in an almost identical situation, you can only take one. This puts you at a complete disadvantage to the rest of the conference.

Northwestern prides itself in being this magnificent center of liberal education but won’t allow this second kid, from the inner city no less, to get in. I hope they realize they may be destroying an opportunity for poor underprivileged kid to make something of his life. If the so-called eggheads are running the deal we are all wasting our time talking about the team and buying tickets that require a donation. It won’t be long an people like Collins and Phillips will start looking for greener pastures and the eggheads can sit around congratulating each other on their amazing success.

What's really hypocritical is having ANY standards that are below the regular admissions standard.

Either take anybody who's eligible under NCAA rules or hold everybody to the same regular admissions standards.

But we can't do the latter because we wouldn't have enough eligible recruits.

Ah, so why again do we have these "separate but still higher" standards? What is the logic?
 
A guard that can regularly drive to the rim and either finish or successfully dish, or a guard that produces a very good assist to turnover ratio - type of guy that people will describe as having great court vision. IMHO, these are ballhandling guards.
Well the first one is a definiton of a lead guard, and you alreary said that we carry a lead guard, so I will assume that those don't count for your purposes. So I will just use assist-to-TO ratio for guys that I observe handle the ball in games for more than, say 10 minutes . If you want to include lead guards in your definition tho, just let me know, but that opens it up yo a lot more guarss, including as you acknowledged, players on our team..
 
Well the first one is a definiton of a lead guard, and you alreary said that we carry a lead guard, so I will assume that those don't count for your purposes. So I will just use assist-to-TO ratio for guys that I observe handle the ball in games for more than, say 10 minutes . If you want to include lead guards in your definition tho, just let me know, but that opens it up yo a lot more guarss, including as you acknowledged, players on our team..

No, you cannot pick apart my definition. No thank you. You can agree with me. But if not, then my definition is how I draw my opinion. And I believe that:

A major failure by CCC that has been part of our problems is the failure to stack the roster with ballhandling guards. By this, I mean a guard that can regularly drive to the rim and either finish or successfully dish, or a guard that produces a very good assist to turnover ratio - type of guy that people will describe as having great court vision.

IMHO, these are ballhandling guards.
 
Nice to have the puffy chested Illini back. Haven’t seen them in a decade. Imagine the football board after Lovie takes care of the 3 OOC games.

Never understand why they feel a need to infiltrate and post on another board, but it must be fun for some. If you read their 247 football board it is comical. Maybe I will create an account for yuks and giggles.

I’ll add some humility as an Illini fan ... what on Earth makes it likely that we win 3 OOC games next year?? :)

I enjoy Mike, too. Even when his blind hatred of Illinois causes him to be a little illogical, he actually is a well-versed basketball fan, and he clearly loves his team.

As for the other boards, our Rivals board sucks last I checked it out. Our only good board is Loyalty, but I do like to check out other fan bases’ thoughts. I usually try to be pretty respectful - as if you’re a guest in someone’s house - and only ever start debates when someone says something blatantly false.
 
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Haywood, this post about the Public School League player brings up another subject. Are the standards so ridiculously high that Collins and the staff just can’t compete in the Big Ten. I don’t know about you but this sounds like if he have two guys in an almost identical situation, you can only take one. This puts you at a complete disadvantage to the rest of the conference.

Northwestern prides itself in being this magnificent center of liberal education but won’t allow this second kid, from the inner city no less, to get in. I hope they realize they may be destroying an opportunity for poor underprivileged kid to make something of his life. If the so-called eggheads are running the deal we are all wasting our time talking about the team and buying tickets that require a donation. It won’t be long an people like Collins and Phillips will start looking for greener pastures and the eggheads can sit around congratulating each other on their amazing success.

i think yes.

when you are an established program you can pick and choose the FEW high level academic kids who can also play at a high level. when trying to build a program - it is extremely difficult to not be able to get local kids who have a poor test score and good grades, good grades and a bad freshmen year, or good grades but one bad subject of grades (say math or English).

i have heard this has been very eye opening for assistant coaches who have come in from other schools and seen truly how different the standards are
 
I’ll add some humility as an Illini fan ... what on Earth makes it likely that we win 3 OOC games next year?? :)

I enjoy Mike, too. Even when his blind hatred of Illinois causes him to be a little illogical, he actually is a well-versed basketball fan, and he clearly loves his team.

As for the other boards, our Rivals board sucks last I checked it out. Our only good board is Loyalty, but I do like to check out other fan bases’ thoughts. I usually try to be pretty respectful - as if you’re a guest in someone’s house - and only ever start debates when someone says something blatantly false.

Nice post! Yeah, Loyalty is pretty much the only board to check out for the Illini fanbase thoughts. Just lurk on the other boards, don't know if I've ever posted on one.
 
Most good programs have point guards who think they are good enough to play, but are willing to ride the pine waiting their turn? Can you provide some examples, I would be seriously interested to research. I have seen a TON of examples of PGs who transferred out of programs because they didn't get playing time. and countless examples of teams (Indiana when Phinisse got hurt is just the latest example off the top of my head) who didn't have a backup and suffered for it (Romeo Langford played PG in his absence, and he is not a PG).
Every year I watch the tournament and it seems like the top teams run out a young, backup PG for some minutes and they are perfectly capable. As for specific teams, I follow Cincinnati and UConn in addition to the Cats. I know Cincy has two pretty good PGs and there was some competition for who would start. One guy seems to have won out, but they both play a fair amount. UConn has like 4 PGs - ok... they don't all play point, but they are all capable. They play a lot of 3 guard lineups because they are so guard-rich. Of course, UConn isn't very good these days, so maybe that's not a good thing.
 
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What's really hypocritical is having ANY standards that are below the regular admissions standard.

Either take anybody who's eligible under NCAA rules or hold everybody to the same regular admissions standards.

But we can't do the latter because we wouldn't have enough eligible recruits.

Ah, so why again do we have these "separate but still higher" standards? What is the logic?

What's hypocritical is that faculty does not object when admissions are lowered to allow in the child of celebrity or otherwise publicly noteworthy individual. There is no "one per year" for the children of actors, performers, etc., who would otherwise never get into NU. But the unhappy cohabitation of sports and academics, even though the revenue sports have been told...."go forward and compete in the Big Ten and deliver us your revenue"....is allowed to persist at a level unmatched by any other university that similarly competes in sports.

A kid like Ayo....Morgan Park HS which is academically decent, solid family, ok but not great grade school....should not require an appeal. He would have coasted into all other 13 Big Ten schools. Had he gotten into NU he would have done just fine in the classroom.

My daughter's best friend in Dec was deferred early admission at NU, it's her top pick. She's Latina, first generation. Solid student, solid test scores. Amazing kid. Her mom asked her why she didn't take the ACT a second and third time, and try to raise her score. She told her mom, "It was too expensive."

Meanwhile, I stand in line at the Whole Foods across from campus and behind kids that literally drop $50 a night on snacks and pay with dad's gold card.

Let me ask this, who will your child learn more from....a class with a bunch of Ayo's and first generation Latina's.....or a bunch of kids who were helicoptered with the best teachers, best tutors and never worked a summer or other jobs?
 
i think yes.

when you are an established program you can pick and choose the FEW high level academic kids who can also play at a high level. when trying to build a program - it is extremely difficult to not be able to get local kids who have a poor test score and good grades, good grades and a bad freshmen year, or good grades but one bad subject of grades (say math or English).

i have heard this has been very eye opening for assistant coaches who have come in from other schools and seen truly how different the standards are

And yet Collins recruited two highly regarded four-stars in Kopp and Nance and has another coming in next year. Should this type of recruiting continue, I would hope we'll be competitive before long. If not, either the rating systems failed or coaching has to come into question.
 
I’ll add some humility as an Illini fan ... what on Earth makes it likely that we win 3 OOC games next year?? :)

I enjoy Mike, too. Even when his blind hatred of Illinois causes him to be a little illogical, he actually is a well-versed basketball fan, and he clearly loves his team.

As for the other boards, our Rivals board sucks last I checked it out. Our only good board is Loyalty, but I do like to check out other fan bases’ thoughts. I usually try to be pretty respectful - as if you’re a guest in someone’s house - and only ever start debates when someone says something blatantly false.
You're high if you think loyalty is a good board. That's the National Enquirer of Illinois boards.
 
And yet Collins recruited two highly regarded four-stars in Kopp and Nance and has another coming in next year. Should this type of recruiting continue, I would hope we'll be competitive before long. If not, either the rating systems failed or coaching has to come into question.

NU is a big, physical conference and its average star rating is above three. The four stars that Collins has brought in are not big, physical kids and NU's overall star rating is average, there are seven Big Ten schools with higher averages and that doesn't include Iowa and Wisconsin.

Kopp is physical, but he's 6 6". Nance is 6 11" but his game can't be called physical. In conference, Law is decent on the perimeter but his game is not to body up. Falzon is average physically for a power forward but that is strictly on D and strictly when his guy brings him into the paint.

That leaves Benson as far as four stars. He's long, but so far hasn't shown the feet nor the power to clear out guys and be self determined in the paint. All the effort is there and he's a big....so it can still happen.

NU is a longer team, I'd argue more skilled, quicker but not more powerful with the exception of Pardon (the comparison is with earlier NU teams).

This approach could work, but I'd argue the shots have to drop for it to work consistently.
 
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