LSU loses recruit to Alabama allegedly because Bama offers better NIL deal -

[Gladeskat]

Glades statement related negative feedback from the students. Whether you care, Glades cares, or I care is irrelevant to that statement.

He's responding in part to your response to my post, not just my initial post.

Who cares what the other students think? It’s not like the good ole football players are some highly respected BMOC now. They are not a cultural fit to start with.

Both the student-athletes (SAs) and student-nonathletes (SNAs) are, first of all, students in college earning a degree. There's really no difference here, and when I was there, NU athletes integrated well with the rest of the student body. NU isn't a commuter school. One of my concerns about early practices was there would be a greater social disconnect between the SAs and the SNAs, which I don't think is healthy for SAs.

How many CEO’s REALLY care that their salary is 100 times their average worker? Bottom line is it is a capitalist world. If someone wants to pay for your services they pay for it. If they don’t, they won’t. Do the players ask for compensation from Joe classmate when he or she becomes CEO of a large corporation? Make it while you can. This isn’t a Socialist state.


Stating this is a capitalist world and suggesting such things as NIL payments for college student-athletes should necessarily conform to capitalism is a strong statement that catches my attention ("Say what?"). It's as if capitalism alone, and maximizing one's income when they can, is the best solution for everything. After 30 years working at the ass-end of capitalism, I can definitely say it's not. Capitalism is based upon greed, which is an innate, powerful driver for problem-solving (e.g., covid vaccines and treatments). I'm a HUGE fan of capitalism's problem-solving power and its better fit with human nature. However, without regulation, it can become too self-centered and corrupt that it becomes destructive to society and inherently too slow to respond to problems effectively. I'm suggesting 18-yo's receiving 6-figure or more payments for playing a sport when they're in school to get a degree like any other student could potentially create a variety of problems within the student body (including SAs) and the University.

Players don't ask for favors later because they've put in the time to get an education and become self-sufficient, just like their fellow SNAs. A full scholarship and $5K-$10K annual allowance is a sufficient GRANT for them to play and get a degree. Being handed $60K pickups (Alabama) and other $$$ distractions as part of a NIL agreement when they arrive on campus, on top of a full-ride + $5K living allowance can skew one's priorities and doesn't facilitate their getting that degree or furthering their sports career.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

He's responding in part to your response to my post, not just my initial post.

Who cares what the other students think? It’s not like the good ole football players are some highly respected BMOC now. They are not a cultural fit to start with.

Both the student-athletes (SAs) and student-nonathletes (SNAs) are, first of all, students in college earning a degree. There's really no difference here, and when I was there, NU athletes integrated well with the rest of the student body. NU isn't a commuter school. One of my concerns about early practices was there would be a greater social disconnect between the SAs and the SNAs, which I don't think is healthy for SAs.

How many CEO’s REALLY care that their salary is 100 times their average worker? Bottom line is it is a capitalist world. If someone wants to pay for your services they pay for it. If they don’t, they won’t. Do the players ask for compensation from Joe classmate when he or she becomes CEO of a large corporation? Make it while you can. This isn’t a Socialist state.


Stating this is a capitalist world and suggesting such things as NIL payments for college student-athletes should necessarily conform to capitalism is a strong statement that catches my attention ("Say what?"). It's as if capitalism alone, and maximizing one's income when they can, is the best solution for everything. After 30 years working at the ass-end of capitalism, I can definitely say it's not. Capitalism is based upon greed, which is an innate, powerful driver for problem-solving (e.g., covid vaccines and treatments). I'm a HUGE fan of capitalism's problem-solving power and its better fit with human nature. However, without regulation, it can become too self-centered and corrupt that it becomes destructive to society and inherently too slow to respond to problems effectively. I'm suggesting 18-yo's receiving 6-figure or more payments for playing a sport when they're in school to get a degree like any other student could potentially create a variety of problems within the student body (including SAs) and the University.

Players don't ask for favors later because they've put in the time to get an education and become self-sufficient, just like their fellow SNAs. A full scholarship and $5K-$10K annual allowance is a sufficient GRANT for them to play and get a degree. Being handed $60K pickups (Alabama) and other $$$ distractions as part of a NIL agreement when they arrive on campus, on top of a full-ride + $5K living allowance can skew one's priorities and doesn't facilitate their getting that degree or furthering their sports career.

A lot of what you say is certainly true. Greed is what got us in this situation and there is no regulation because College football lacks a true governing body with any power. The money has exploded from the day of you and I being a SA and eventually this was always going to be the result.

I just feel touting the full scholarship and stipend is an idyllic view of yesteryear. The TV money has killing that possibility. The NCAA is and has been a joke. They could have rolled this out the right way, years ago. Longer term medical coverage, a pension like payment for GRADUATE’s later in life, an increased stipend that promoted the team concept rather than every man for himself. Many other ideas, but they are letting morph into what will likely be the Wild West.

I was a first generation college student. As a non-revenue SA, I was thrilled with the proposition of a free education if you participate on our team. What I considered in choosing from three schools was 1) who had the best program and 2) where would I have the best time. Oh yeah, did they have my major. I didn’t know better and my father was a union electrician and my mother immigrated to the USA with a eighth grade education. The reason I bring this up, is because a lot of the revenue athletes today probably think like I did back then and have similar guidance. The thing I was smart enough to do, was take advantage of the opportunity afforded me. I wasn’t coming home without a diploma.

Unfortunately, I saw many examples of revenue athletes that were good enough to fill up arenas but dumb enough to not take advantage of the educational opportunity. They walked away with nothing. Kicked to the curb after their eligibility expired. On to the next one. Glades, despite your need to pedal cross country, you are obviously a well educated man. You took advantage of your opportunity. If everyone did, this would be less of an issue. However, I saw a high level revenue sport guy come into college that could only name 10 of the 12 months. I wonder if he had some of the benefits the NCAA could have had the foresight to consider, if his post playing days would have been different? Now well up there in years, he has turned his life around, but the school rode his back to full stadiums and a bowl game and he ended up with nothing. The school didn’t educate him at all. Nobody cared. I can’t be sure that NIL would have changed the trajectory of his post playing days, but I would suspect it could to some.

 

[StreamCat]

I saw many examples of revenue athletes that were good enough to fill up arenas but dumb enough to not take advantage of the educational opportunity.

Who’s fault is that? Blame the student-athlete, of course, but also blame a culture that doesn't value a real education but only values the piece of paper it provides. In my teaching days, many, if not most parents weren't the least bit interested in what their kids were learning, but - hoo boy - give the kid a B instead of an A and Katie bar the door.

 

[Sheffielder]

Who’s fault is that? Blame the student-athlete, of course, but also blame a culture that doesn't value a real education but only values the piece of paper it provides. In my teaching days, many, if not most parents weren't the least bit interested in what their kids were learning, but - hoo boy - give the kid a B instead of an A and Katie bar the door.

On the educational side, it really is a no-win situation because you will always have nefarious behavior. Example: there are some college players who have gotten terrible educations from K through 12. They legitimately do need remedial reading, writing, and math courses - THAT is what would actually benefit them in college, and for them CFB should be a blessing because it gets them access to dedicated, guided support. But if you allow and support this, then you'll have a football factory taking advantage of it, enrolling players in meaningless classes to ensure no threat to eligibility. And if you challenge intellectually capable players too much, they'll go where they aren't hassled by school. "We didn't come here to play school!"

Likewise, a player who wants to study biochem and be pre-med will make headlines like Robert Smith did when he said his advisors discouraged him from attempting that path - as a college administrator I can imagine myself in that same spot, with my job on the line to keep him eligible and knowing that many students who have no other responsibilities but their classes still can't hang in biochem (but in Smith's case it was Ohio State, so I can only assume the absolute worst of intentions!)

So while I do not actually think the system is *totally* rigged, there are too many participants with ulterior motives who make it very difficult (impossible?) for those who actually want to act in good faith and play by the rules.

My fear about the proliferation of NIL is that we will all develop adversarial relationships with teenage players, just like we do with pro players who sign mega deals and then fall short on the field.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Who’s fault is that? Blame the student-athlete, of course, but also blame a culture that doesn't value a real education but only values the piece of paper it provides. In my teaching days, many, if not most parents weren't the least bit interested in what their kids were learning, but - hoo boy - give the kid a B instead of an A and Katie bar the door.

The fault is shared by the SA and by the system that allows and/or encourages it. I tend to blame the adults that should know better. The NU board is one of a very few fan boards that give a rats ass about graduation rates, preparing a kid for life. That’s personally why I became a NU fan. I saw first hand the using the SA for the sole purpose of wins. This is what has made me an argent supporter of SA’s ability to make what they can. Very few schools/fan bases care about them other than what they can do on the field.

A lot of these kids come from modest backgrounds. They are not third generation NU grads that understand the politics of the game and even the real value of an education. They have minimal guidance and see the stars and bright lights. They aren’t thinking about funding their 401K 20 years from now.

They are being used to win championship’s and to keep the Fat Cats puffy chested about their school. If someone gave me a shiny new airplane, it would look great on the tarmac, but I would have no idea how to fly it. It’s value to me would not be the same as someone who knew how to fly it. Schools that are “just” proving a scholarship are not doing their job with preparing these marginal qualifier SA’s for life. So the question becomes, do we trust these schools ( the system) to change and do this the way it was intended to? I certainly have zero confidence that most schools will make the “student” part of SA a priority and have a half century of evidence to support that thought. If I was a SA in todays scene, I would seriously look into all NIL opportunities. When is the last time you heard a SA say, “ this NIL idea is just terrible and is going to ruin the sport I love so much”.

 

[StreamCat]

The fault is shared by the SA and by the system that allows and/or encourages it. I tend to blame the adults that should know better. The NU board is one of a very few fan boards that give a rats ass about graduation rates, preparing a kid for life. That’s personally why I became a NU fan. I saw first hand the using the SA for the sole purpose of wins. This is what has made me an argent supporter of SA’s ability to make what they can. Very few schools/fan bases care about them other than what they can do on the field.

A lot of these kids come from modest backgrounds. They are not third generation NU grads that understand the politics of the game and even the real value of an education. They have minimal guidance and see the stars and bright lights. They aren’t thinking about funding their 401K 20 years from now.

They are being used to win championship’s and to keep the Fat Cats puffy chested about their school. If someone gave me a shiny new airplane, it would look great on the tarmac, but I would have no idea how to fly it. It’s value to me would not be the same as someone who knew how to fly it. Schools that are “just” proving a scholarship are not doing their job with preparing these marginal qualifier SA’s for life. So the question becomes, do we trust these schools ( the system) to change and do this the way it was intended to? I certainly have zero confidence that most schools will make the “student” part of SA a priority and have a half century of evidence to support that thought. If I was a SA in todays scene, I would seriously look into all NIL opportunities. When is the last time you heard a SA say, “ this NIL idea is just terrible and is going to ruin the sport I love so much”.

We have reached agreement.

 

[Gladeskat]

A lot of what you say is certainly true. Greed is what got us in this situation and there is no regulation because College football lacks a true governing body with any power. The money has exploded from the day of you and I being a SA and eventually this was always going to be the result.

I just feel touting the full scholarship and stipend is an idyllic view of yesteryear. The TV money has killing that possibility. The NCAA is and has been a joke. They could have rolled this out the right way, years ago. Longer term medical coverage, a pension like payment for GRADUATE’s later in life, an increased stipend that promoted the team concept rather than every man for himself. Many other ideas, but they are letting morph into what will likely be the Wild West.

I was a first generation college student. As a non-revenue SA, I was thrilled with the proposition of a free education if you participate on our team. What I considered in choosing from three schools was 1) who had the best program and 2) where would I have the best time. Oh yeah, did they have my major. I didn’t know better and my father was a union electrician and my mother immigrated to the USA with a eighth grade education. The reason I bring this up, is because a lot of the revenue athletes today probably think like I did back then and have similar guidance. The thing I was smart enough to do, was take advantage of the opportunity afforded me. I wasn’t coming home without a diploma.

Unfortunately, I saw many examples of revenue athletes that were good enough to fill up arenas but dumb enough to not take advantage of the educational opportunity. They walked away with nothing. Kicked to the curb after their eligibility expired. On to the next one. Glades, despite your need to pedal cross country, you are obviously a well educated man. You took advantage of your opportunity. If everyone did, this would be less of an issue. However, I saw a high level revenue sport guy come into college that could only name 10 of the 12 months. I wonder if he had some of the benefits the NCAA could have had the foresight to consider, if his post playing days would have been different? Now well up there in years, he has turned his life around, but the school rode his back to full stadiums and a bowl game and he ended up with nothing. The school didn’t educate him at all. Nobody cared. I can’t be sure that NIL would have changed the trajectory of his post playing days, but I would suspect it could to some.

My recruiting priorities were horrible - basically, it was whichever school is giving me the most love rather than being a better educational opportunity and fit. NU's elite degree meant nothing to me. Texas Tech had my attention for showing me the love with red carpets, arranged dates with pretty girls, bands, and even the Mayor of Lubbock handing me a ceremonial key to Lubbock when I got off the plane. One comment by the coach recruiting me caused me to rethink TT and pick NU.

"Come on done here and we'll get the Yankee out of you in no time." - Coach Jesse Stiles. Bye bye, Jesse. Good luck with the Civil War rematch.

What drove me academically at NU were the goals and work ethic of the regular students. It was cool to see my teammates to also take their education seriously, and that makes NU special as a D1 program, IMO.

There are a lot of SAs that have no business being in college. Even NU recruited a few back in the Agase days. The NFL needs to create a developmental league for these players.

These NIL agreements will greatly change college football recruiting for the worse, IMO.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

I for one am annoyed the players will now get a share of the revenue they generate instead of coaches salaries continue to triple every 15 years. An insult to amateurism!

 

[Gladeskat]

Who’s fault is that? Blame the student-athlete, of course, but also blame a culture that doesn't value a real education but only values the piece of paper it provides. In my teaching days, many, if not most parents weren't the least bit interested in what their kids were learning, but - hoo boy - give the kid a B instead of an A and Katie bar the door.

The only thing my parents cared about was my behavior in the classroom.

 

[cattul]

There are a lot of SAs that have no business being in college. Even NU recruited a few back in the Agase days. The NFL needs to create a developmental league for these players.

That’s exactly what I can see coming, (very) long term, as well.

I can imagine an NFL ‘Student League’ forming, which plays its games in existing college stadiums, and has similar eligibility rules. Some fraction — two thirds for illustration purposes — of the players on any given team’s roster would be required to have been students in good standing at one of the ‘local‘ unis at the end of the previous academic semester/quarter/whatever. The remaining third of the roster would be open to nonstudents, but those players would be held to the same ‘total eligible seasons’ requirements.

In exchange for working with the league to facilitate player education, the schools (specifically students attending the participating universities) could be offer deeply discounted tickets to games. Several schools might be associated with a single team, hence each team would have a number of ‘home stadiums’, so the student experience wouldn’t be the same, but at least the system would maintain some degree of regional feistiness.

This gets the college football mess out of the hands of universities and state governments, facilitates athletic student endeavors by allowing players to take the playing season off from school, affords some number of players who lack the ability to handle a college course load an opportunity to play, keeps some semblance of the school spirit experience on game day for other students, and feeds some money back into athletic departments to service the debt on the cathedrals they have built.

I have come to believe that it isn’t super conferences or NIL which will doom the the college game. It is the troubling CTE evidence.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

That’s exactly what I can see coming, (very) long term, as well.

I can imagine an NFL ‘Student League’ forming, which plays its games in existing college stadiums, and has similar eligibility rules. Some fraction — two thirds for illustration purposes — of the players on any given team’s roster would be required to have been students in good standing at one of the ‘local‘ unis at the end of the last academic semester/quarter/whatever. The remaining third of the roster would be open, save for the years of eligibility requirements.

In exchange for working with the league to facilitate player education, the schools (specifically students attending the participating universities) could be offer deeply discounted tickets. A number of schools might be associated with a single team, so the game won’t be the same, but at least it would maintain regional feistiness.

This gets the college football mess out of universities and state governments, facilitates athletic student endeavors by allowing players to take the playing season off from school, allows some number of players lacking the ability to handle college course loads an opportunity to play, keeps some semblance of the school spirit experience on game day for other students, and feeds some money back into athletic departments to service debt on the cathedrals they have built.

I have come to believe that it isn’t super conferences or NIL which will doom the the game. It is the troubling CTE evidence.

This is very unlikely to happen because why in the sam hell would the NFL want to take this on when it can just continue to utilize the NCAA as a minor league? Having to pay players, organize the league, deal with injuries, coaches, etc... all in an environment where minor league football is a challenging business proposition because CFB is sitting right there as an extremely established big money competitor.

There's zero reason whatsoever for the NFL to ever care to do this.

 

[cattul]

This is very unlikely to happen because why in the sam hell would the NFL want to take this on when it can just continue to utilize the NCAA as a minor league? Having to pay players, organize the league, deal with injuries, coaches, etc... all in an environment where minor league football is a challenging business proposition because CFB is sitting right there as an extremely established big money competitor.

There's zero reason whatsoever for the NFL to ever care to do this.

I don’t think you fully appreciated my apocalyptic point.

I’m talking about the game which follows college football once the colleges ‘want out.’ No more college football. Only the NFL Student Legue.

Perhaps you meant to respond to Glades? I think he intended to keep college football around, in his scenario.

(Edit: oops. I see that I misleadingly used the term ‘exactly’ in my response to Glades. Obviously, I only meant that I could see the NFL forming a league, not ‘exactly’ what Glades suggested.)

As to whether the colleges will ever want out, well, maybe they won’t. Junkies will be junkies. But I‘ll stand by my gut feeling that major changes like that will happen in my lifetime. It will take some sort of hybrid college/pro plan to ween the universities from football.

 

[NUCat320]

I don’t think you fully appreciated my apocalyptic point.

I’m talking about the game which follows college football once the colleges ‘want out.’ No more college football. Only the NFL Student Legue.

Perhaps you meant to respond to Glades? I think he intended to keep college football around, in his scenario.

(Edit: oops. I see that I misleadingly used the term ‘exactly’ in my response to Glades. Obviously, I only meant that I could see the NFL forming a league, not ‘exactly’ what Glades suggested.)

As to whether the colleges will ever want out, well, maybe they won’t. Junkies will be junkies. But I‘ll stand by my gut feeling that major changes like that will happen in my lifetime. It will take some sort of hybrid college/pro plan to ween the universities from football.

I see no circumstances in which the NFL feeder colleges want out. It’s still free labor for the schools.

 

[cattul]

I see no circumstances in which the NFL feeder colleges want out. It’s still free labor for the schools.

Not even if CTE cases become the asbestos litigation of the twenty first century? With many of the cases no doubt involving accusations of institutional racism?

College football can’t bear that. I can see the universities deciding to ‘divest’ football.

Granted, Alabama would be a hard sell on the idea. Major change probably isn’t imminent.

 

[phatcat]

Not even if CTE cases become the asbestos litigation of the twenty first century? With many of the cases no doubt involving accusations of institutional racism?

College football can’t bear that. I can see the universities deciding to ‘divest’ football.

Granted, Alabama would be a hard sell on the idea. Major change probably isn’t imminent.

They'll just have to do asbestos they can to insulate themselves from claims.

 

[Gladeskat]

My fear about the proliferation of NIL is that we will all develop adversarial relationships with teenage players, just like we do with pro players who sign mega deals and then fall short on the field.

Good point! I think it will change the relationship between the fans and the players once all that extra cash is thrown at them.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Good point! I think it will change the relationship between the fans and the players once all that extra cash is thrown at them.

Maybe, but fans have gone hard after players before NiL was instituted.

 

[Sheffielder]

Maybe, but fans have gone hard after players before NiL was instituted.

I think that will always be true at football factories no matter what; but I think at more tame programs like Northwestern, there are still just so many unknowns. I'm expecting that NU will not directly solicit or pay players, but support them in seeking their own endorsements and deals.

In general I think our fan base supports all our players (even those who are frustrating to watch), but I think this would change dramatically if we found out they got a 100K signing bonus from the Ryan Football Foundation (or whatever we might call it). And it's this prospect that I really, really hate.

 

[BosCat]

If you want a laugh -- read this (NCAA reviewing NIL)

ESPNStory

"We expect that all members and their representatives are abiding by current NCAA rules regarding recruiting and pay-for-play, which are in place to support student-athletes," NCAA president Mark Emmert said.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

If you want a laugh -- read this (NCAA reviewing NIL)

ESPNStory

"We expect that all members and their representatives are abiding by current NCAA rules regarding recruiting and pay-for-play, which are in place to support student-athletes," NCAA president Mark Emmert said.

Mark Emmert? The guy who used to run college football?

 

[Gladeskat]

Maybe, but fans have gone hard after players before NiL was instituted.

Not any that I like to watch a game with. I don't even care for that at the professional level.