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Next year's 13th Scholarship

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Jeffrey Cat

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2005
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This might be a good topic for a cold winter's day here in the Chicago Area. Just what is the staff going to do about the 13th scholarship for the 16-17 season or for the next four years if that's the route they take.
( I'm going to assume the Johnny Vassar scholarship thing is dead, if it already is not. )

1. We will have 3 true guards next year. A junior, a sophomore, and a freshman. We also have two guys (Lumpkin and Lindsey) who can take some minutes. I think Lindsey is more of a wing while I like Lumpkin as a big rebounding defensive guard. Would you take a fifth year guy in the two spot.

2. We have two centers next year a sophomore and a freshman. We also have a big junior, Skelly who could take some minutes. Do we bring in another fifth year guy at center.

3. Do we use the 13th scholarship as a four year deal for another guard or center.

No polls please. Just tell me your thoughts after seeing these guys for about 20 games of this season
 
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It's amazing that between 35 and 40 ppg come from transfers to the Maryland roster.

If there is a center or PF transfer who is better than what's on next year's roster I think you take him for a year. I think where JVZ is so valuable is that he moves well for a big man so can be disruptive and doesn't get pushed around. Alex doesn't get pushed around but he doesn't move with the athletic bigs.
 
Jeffrey Cat said:
3. Do we use the fifth scholarship as a four year deal for another guard or center.
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5th scholarship? With 3 2016 LOI's signed and 3 graduating players (Olad, Tre and Joey) NU has 1 unfilled roster spot due to Vassar, so at best they could offer 1 2016 player if the Vassar situation is resolved. In 2017, they will have 2 available scholarships, Lumpkin and Tap. Short of a 5th year 2016 transfer, I'd hold the Vassar slot for 2017.
 
NJCat said:
5th scholarship? With 3 2016 LOI's signed and 3 graduating players (Olad, Tre and Joey) NU has 1 unfilled roster spot due to Vassar, so at best they could offer 1 2016 player if the Vassar situation is resolved. In 2017, they will have 2 available scholarships, Lumpkin and Tap. Short of a 5th year 2016 transfer, I'd hold the Vassar slot for 2017.
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Sorry for the error, it has been corrected
 
Jeffrey Cat said:
Sorry for the error, it has been corrected
Click to expand...

To answer your question in the modified OP, I would NOT use the 13th scholarship for a 2016 4-year player. The optimum is 3 classes of 3 players and one of 4, and NU will already have the 4 player class from the current Sophomore class.
 
our greatest need will be a seasoned Center. If there is one more scholarship then thats the exact sorta thing we would expect because thats what collins has done the two previous years.
 
willycat said:
Still Rick Berry's kid is intriguing because I would love to see him shoot those underhanded FT's. Maybe he could get some of our current players to take up that style. Couldn't hurt.
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Best idea ever. Picturing the next NU gimmicky thing - better than the Princeton O or 1-3-1. Every player shoots FTs underhand at a clip around 80 on our way to the dance. Suddenly, NBA teams start utilizing the idea with some of their more challenged tossers. NU becomes the next big thing.
 
Our greatest need next year is a 2 guard. We have no one who's proven they are ready for starters minutes there. We've heard stuff about the law and other wings at the 2, but at the end of the day, they truly are wings. Lindsey may have what it takes, but he is certainly yet to show it on a consistent basis. Ash is a question mark at best and Brown looks to be more of a point guard but I think we could possibly see something like Iowa's backcourt with Gessel as the primary ball handler but Clemmons basically as a second PG out there.
 
Pardon has already he's more than capable offensively, and the more he plays, the more he will improve defensively. Also, looking at Benson's other offers (includes Iowa, Purdue, Indiana, Illinois, Nebraska, PSU,Vandy, USC, and a couple more Power 5 schools), it would be hard to imagine him not being ready to contribute either. Skelly is a viable option at the 5 non-conference, where we tend to see smaller, quicker bigs.
 
NTCAT said:
Brown looks to be more of a point guard .
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How much have you seen of Brown? I haven't watched much of his tapes but the little I did see made me wonder. He doesn't seem Big 10 ready to my eyes, but how about to you?
 
Watched a couple of his games on HS Cube. The competition he plays, and the rest of his team isn't very good most of the time. I think it's hard to project how he'll do next year because he will most likely be a role player, and when you watch the games now, he basically always has the ball in his hands. I think he will be one of the better shooters on the team, and I like that he shows different ways of scoring too- mid range game of pull-ups, as well as getting to the hoop. He still looks pretty small- height and build- out there and doesn't seem like the most athletic guy yet. Can't really judge his defense from watching limited amounts online and against some not so great players. Will try to watch more soon.
 
NTCAT said:
Watched a couple of his games on HS Cube. The competition he plays, and the rest of his team isn't very good most of the time. I think it's hard to project how he'll do next year because he will most likely be a role player, and when you watch the games now, he basically always has the ball in his hands. I think he will be one of the better shooters on the team, and I like that he shows different ways of scoring too- mid range game of pull-ups, as well as getting to the hoop. He still looks pretty small- height and build- out there and doesn't seem like the most athletic guy yet. Can't really judge his defense from watching limited amounts online and against some not so great players. Will try to watch more soon.
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Thanks. Good report.
 
NTCAT said:
Watched a couple of his games on HS Cube. The competition he plays, and the rest of his team isn't very good most of the time. I think it's hard to project how he'll do next year because he will most likely be a role player, and when you watch the games now, he basically always has the ball in his hands. I think he will be one of the better shooters on the team, and I like that he shows different ways of scoring too- mid range game of pull-ups, as well as getting to the hoop. He still looks pretty small- height and build- out there and doesn't seem like the most athletic guy yet. Can't really judge his defense from watching limited amounts online and against some not so great players. Will try to watch more soon.
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I agree with you. He will have a really interesting transition going from basically shooting whenever he wants (almost every time down court) to needing to take good shots in the flow of the offense. And he rarely looks like he is going full speed or jumping that high but he almost always manages to get his shot off. I wish he were a few inches taller. I think he would be really effective at 6'4". He has played on good teams in prior years, though, and he has posted 50 plus points this year against a team with several Division 1 players (although his team got blown out). Collins and his staff have done a really good job of judging talent so I am optimistic that he will be able to transition his game to college.

And RI seems to have a more diverse offensive game as well (he really reminds me of Coble) so it will be great having a couple more guys that can score other than on 3's. Let's hope they can play defense.
 
clarificationcat said:
Collins and his staff have done a really good job of judging talent so I am optimistic that he will be able to transition his game to college. .
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Dunno about that. BMac was a home run. Law and Falzon were 4*s so not much to say about identifying talent there. Pardon looks like at least a triple and a great find. But Vassar was a wash-out, Skelly and Lindsey are still projects, and the jury is very much out on Ash. Success in Power 5 conferences is about bringing in the studs like Benson and Ivanauskas and Falzon, not developing projects, and eventually Collins and staff will be bringing in consistent 4* classes.
 
Agree with most of that. Although, I do think Pardon will be a Homerun. Think the thing with skelly, Lindsey, and vassar, is they were part of the first class, which CC had a late start on, and he may have needed to make some reaches just to get some bodies on the team, as we did lose a couple players to transfer.
 
NJCat said:
Dunno about that. BMac was a home run. Law and Falzon were 4*s so not much to say about identifying talent there. Pardon looks like at least a triple and a great find. But Vassar was a wash-out, Skelly and Lindsey are still projects, and the jury is very much out on Ash. Success in Power 5 conferences is about bringing in the studs like Benson and Ivanauskas and Falzon, not developing projects, and eventually Collins and staff will be bringing in consistent 4* classes.
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No staff bats 100%. There are always recruits at Top 10 schools that never contribute. Vassar was clearly a reach but probably worth a shot based on his athletic ability. I don't consider Skelly a miss at all. He has a pretty good skill set and a good motor and has made real contributions in a few games (more last year than this year, interestingly). His problems appear to be more mental than physical (I get the impression at games that he misses assignments). We have always struggled to find big men and even if he remains a role player he was a good addition to the team. Lindsey is a good shooter with good size who has also contributed (but obviously not as much as we would like). We have had plenty of players on our roster that didn't belong in B1G. Skelly and Lindsey are not those players. I think Collins and his staff have done a really good job of judging talent to this point.
 
NJCat said:
Dunno about that. BMac was a home run. Law and Falzon were 4*s so not much to say about identifying talent there. Pardon looks like at least a triple and a great find. But Vassar was a wash-out, Skelly and Lindsey are still projects, and the jury is very much out on Ash. Success in Power 5 conferences is about bringing in the studs like Benson and Ivanauskas and Falzon, not developing projects, and eventually Collins and staff will be bringing in consistent 4* classes.
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It's about both. WIS and MSU are good examples of both bringing top guys AND developing projects.
 
clarificationcat said:
No staff bats 100%. There are always recruits at Top 10 schools that never contribute. Vassar was clearly a reach but probably worth a shot based on his athletic ability. I don't consider Skelly a miss at all. He has a pretty good skill set and a good motor and has made real contributions in a few games (more last year than this year, interestingly). His problems appear to be more mental than physical (I get the impression at games that he misses assignments). We have always struggled to find big men and even if he remains a role player he was a good addition to the team. Lindsey is a good shooter with good size who has also contributed (but obviously not as much as we would like). We have had plenty of players on our roster that didn't belong in B1G. Skelly and Lindsey are not those players. I think Collins and his staff have done a really good job of judging talent to this point.
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Not just judging but getting that talent to sign guys that other BIG programs (and other Power 5 programs) actually want. Easy enough to find talent but the difficulty here has always been getting them to sign. If you want to say finding people with talent that fit and want to be here, that I would agree with.
 
hdhntr1 said:
Not just judging but getting that talent to sign guys that other BIG programs (and other Power 5 programs) actually want. Easy enough to find talent but the difficulty here has always been getting them to sign. If you want to say finding people with talent that fit and want to be here, that I would agree with.
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Skelly had no other power 5 offers among his 17 offers from mid-majors. His best offer was probably Akron, an annual MAC contender. Lindsey had offers from Iowa and Vandy among his 15 offers, which are pretty good considering he was hurt in HS. But compare those offers to Law Jr., for example, who had offers from Creighton, FSU, Ga Tech, Vandy, Illinois, WVa, VCU with Smart, and Xavier. Not exactly a hidden gem! Or Falzon, with offers from BC, Georgia, NC State, Marquette and Providence, or Benson with Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa State, Purdue and Vandy. Fact is, Collins is landing kids who are winners and can play at the highest level for major programs. He isn't improving the program by finding hidden gems other than BMac.
 
BMac once he opened up his recruiting received many offers including Purdue, Memphis, Clemson to name a few.
 
I agree with all who say the Cats desperately need a 2. Pardon has shown us - let's be conservative - "something" this year. I don't think you can say that about Ash. You don't have much-of-a-proven anything at guard besides BMac.
 
NJCat said:
Skelly had no other power 5 offers among his 17 offers from mid-majors. His best offer was probably Akron, an annual MAC contender. Lindsey had offers from Iowa and Vandy among his 15 offers, which are pretty good considering he was hurt in HS. But compare those offers to Law Jr., for example, who had offers from Creighton, FSU, Ga Tech, Vandy, Illinois, WVa, VCU with Smart, and Xavier. Not exactly a hidden gem! Or Falzon, with offers from BC, Georgia, NC State, Marquette and Providence, or Benson with Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa State, Purdue and Vandy. Fact is, Collins is landing kids who are winners and can play at the highest level for major programs. He isn't improving the program by finding hidden gems other than BMac.
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True s
NJCat said:
Skelly had no other power 5 offers among his 17 offers from mid-majors. His best offer was probably Akron, an annual MAC contender. Lindsey had offers from Iowa and Vandy among his 15 offers, which are pretty good considering he was hurt in HS. But compare those offers to Law Jr., for example, who had offers from Creighton, FSU, Ga Tech, Vandy, Illinois, WVa, VCU with Smart, and Xavier. Not exactly a hidden gem! Or Falzon, with offers from BC, Georgia, NC State, Marquette and Providence, or Benson with Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa State, Purdue and Vandy. Fact is, Collins is landing kids who are winners and can play at the highest level for major programs. He isn't improving the program by finding hidden gems other than BMac.
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While true that Skelly did not have other Power 5 offers, I seem to remember when I checked before he had about 30 mid major offers. Basically the entire MAC and more (thought I recalled Dayton for example). I don't see some of those offers now but I recall them being there. He was the kind of guy I was shocked that BC and staff never went after, He has a legitimate 4 body and was a bit under the radar but would have fit in well. One of the things I always found frustrating as we were always getting killed on the boards.

Again, look at the offer lists of guys recruited before CC and compare offer lists. Talent level definitely improving.
 
We need a 2 guard if we have that Schollie. If not then slide Law to the 2 guard. Play Falzon at the 4 and pumpkin/ivanauskas at the 3. Pardon/Benson will be just fine at the 5
 
catcrazy said:
We need a 2 guard if we have that Schollie. If not then slide Law to the 2 guard. Play Falzon at the 4 and pumpkin/ivanauskas at the 3. Pardon/Benson will be just fine at the 5
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Just how long do you think NU will let Vassar keep that schlorship? if he wants to remain at NU then either he practices and takes his place on the bench or applies for a grant in aid.
 
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Jeffrey Cat said:
This might be a good topic for a cold winter's day here in the Chicago Area. Just what is the staff going to do about the 13th scholarship for the 16-17 season or for the next four years if that's the route they take.
( I'm going to assume the Johnny Vassar scholarship thing is dead, if it already is not. )

1. We will have 3 true guards next year. A junior, a sophomore, and a freshman. We also have two guys (Lumpkin and Lindsey) who can take some minutes. I think Lindsey is more of a wing while I like Lumpkin as a big rebounding defensive guard. Would you take a fifth year guy in the two spot.

2. We have two centers next year a sophomore and a freshman. We also have a big junior, Skelly who could take some minutes. Do we bring in another fifth year guy at center.

3. Do we use the 13th scholarship as a four year deal for another guard or center.

No polls please. Just tell me your thoughts after seeing these guys for about 20 games of this season
Click to expand...
1. I think lumpkin is graduating and is more of a 4 than a 2 or 1...

I stopped reading after that.
 
NJCat said:
To answer your question in the modified OP, I would NOT use the 13th scholarship for a 2016 4-year player. The optimum is 3 classes of 3 players and one of 4, and NU will already have the 4 player class from the current Sophomore class.
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Is it? I'd like to get a class of 5 followed by a class of 4. Now we'll have 9 upperclassman in a couple years. Yes we would regress after that (see Wisconsin), but you'll be set up for a year to make a program changing run.

Yes, it's putting all your eggs in 1 basket... But I'd rather have a few great seasons with a couple crap seasons in between rather than staying just outside the bubble year after year
 
shakes3858 said:
1. I think lumpkin is graduating.
Click to expand...

Huh. Do you have any inside info or just your speculation? He's a captain this season and has a year of eligibility left so I'm a little surprised. Could get a good start on a Masters degree for free if he returns.
 
I actually like Skelly. His HS tape shows a lot more game than he is asked or allowed to do at NU. He works hard on the boards and I think he is a valuable asset.
 
docrugby1 said:
I actually like Skelly. His HS tape shows a lot more game than he is asked or allowed to do at NU. He works hard on the boards and I think he is a valuable asset.
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I think you're exactly right. Skelly has a nice shot and that's backed up by his free throw shooting. And he's not just high energy, he gets things done with that energy. He rebounds at a high pace and when he has an opportunity with the ball he puts it in the basket.

He doesn't seem to get out quicked but some of the bigger post players do move him off his spot.

I still think he was a nice pick up for Collins and will continue to improve.
 
I just want to add that the constant habit of looking at schools that recruited a player to determine whether they are any good or a good recruit AFTER THEY'VE PLAYED in Big Ten games is monumentally stupid.

For god's sake, you have recent data from Big Ten play. Do you know anything about basketball? Is who recruited them even relevant when you have that info?

So no other majors recruited Skelly. His per minute rebounding puts him on pace to average about 10 a game. Whadday think? Think he can contribute to a Big Ten roster?
 
Medill90 said:
I just want to add that the constant habit of looking at schools that recruited a player to determine whether they are any good or a good recruit AFTER THEY'VE PLAYED in Big Ten games is monumentally stupid.

For god's sake, you have recent data from Big Ten play. Do you know anything about basketball? Is who recruited them even relevant when you have that info?

So no other majors recruited Skelly. His per minute rebounding puts him on pace to average about 10 a game. Whadday think? Think he can contribute to a Big Ten roster?
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Well, would you rather judge a recruit on the number of *'s? offers by schools like MSU, Indiana and obviously the Kentucky's of the world say a lot about a kids ability then lets say from a MAC school. If NU has a kid that will get them 10 rebounds per game, then why isn't he doing so?
 
willycat said:
Well, would you rather judge a recruit on the number of *'s? offers by schools like MSU, Indiana and obviously the Kentucky's of the world say a lot about a kids ability then lets say from a MAC school. If NU has a kid that will get them 10 rebounds per game, then why isn't he doing so?
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First, this is the best NU rebounding team that I remember in 35+ years. So someone did something right.

Second, NU has three players who rebound at close to a 10 rebounds per game pace...Sanjay, Pardon and Skelly. None of the them average 10 because they don't play 40 minutes.

Finally, for those of you in the Illinois militia, when someone has played two years on the team and in 20+ Big Ten games, stars and offers are secondary to actual play.
 
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