OK, it's mid-July and there really isn't much to talk about. I was watching the ESPN 30 for 30 on the 80's Celtics - Lakers rivalry, and forgot just how good those two teams were. Either one of them would beat either Golden State or the Cavs 4-1 in a 7 game series. Those two teams were so much better than todays NBA it isn't funny. Bird, Magic, Scott, McHale, Kareen, Ainge, Worthy, Johnson, Rambis, Walton.....Five Hall of Famers on each team. Just amazing ball.
OT: Celtics - Lakers
- Thread starter NJCat
- Start date
Totally different game today, Fitz. Those 80s guys would all foul out or be thrown out by halftime today. Loved that 30 for 30 series -- what a great rivalry.
In all sports where performance can be measured objectively, athletes were better 30 years ago. This is why the Lakers would beat the Warriors.
Rambis!
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Magic > Curry
Scott = Thompson
Worthy >> Green
Kareem >> Pachulia
Durant >> Rambis
Lakers were really, really good.
You're old and blind. 
And you don't realize how great Curry and Klay are because they're so unlike anything you saw in the first 60 years of the NBA.
Curry > Magic
Thompson >> Scott
Durant >>>>>>>>>>>> Rambis
Iguodala < Worthy
Green < Kareem
They were afraid of the three-point shot in the 80s. Didn't understand math. It's the biggest weapon in the game.
Perhaps you've noticed, but the Warriors are the best team in NBA history.
And you don't realize how great Curry and Klay are because they're so unlike anything you saw in the first 60 years of the NBA.Curry > Magic
Thompson >> Scott
Durant >>>>>>>>>>>> Rambis
Iguodala < Worthy
Green < Kareem
They were afraid of the three-point shot in the 80s. Didn't understand math. It's the biggest weapon in the game.
Perhaps you've noticed, but the Warriors are the best team in NBA history.
Arguably the best.You're old and blind.
Curry > Magic
Thompson >> Scott
Durant >>>>>>>>>>>> Rambis
Iguodala < Worthy
Green < Kareem
They were afraid of the three-point shot in the 80s. Didn't understand math. It's the biggest weapon in the game.
Perhaps you've noticed, but the Warriors are the best team in NBA history.
Harper < Curry
Jordan(underrated three point shooter) >Thompson
Pippen =ish edge to Durant
Rodman=Green
Longley=pachulia
And the game has changed soooo much between these great teams. Imagine trying to guard jordan without hand checks.
Kukoc would close games in Longley's place and provide 3-point shooting. The question is whether we could play Rodman given his lack of offense. The Cavs struggled a lot with Tristan Thompson in the game, and Rodman would bring essentially the same faults.
Possibly the best 30-for-30 ever. If you haven't seen it, I highly suggest running to your TV to catch it.
It was so good to see Magic Johnson again without the weight and old knees. It was equally good to see Bird again with a strong back.
But the thing that stood out to me was how INCREDIBLY PISSED Jerry West still is about losing to the Celtics. He always seemed like mellow cat ... except on that topic.
Great stuff!!
It was so good to see Magic Johnson again without the weight and old knees. It was equally good to see Bird again with a strong back.
But the thing that stood out to me was how INCREDIBLY PISSED Jerry West still is about losing to the Celtics. He always seemed like mellow cat ... except on that topic.
Great stuff!!
OTOH, Jordan's teams would have crushed all of them. They didn't have but three HOF's, but they did have the GOAT. Da Bulls did beat Magic, Scott, and Worthy 4-1. And they beat Bird and his HOF cast to get there (not to mention the Bad Boys from Detroit).
Rambis is not a HOF. Is he? C'mon dude. If so, that's weak sauce. Luc Longley was better than Kurt mothereffing Rambis.
The game has certainly changed but there is no doubt the players of past generations were more skilled and fundamentally sound than today's players. Today's game is what we used to call "street ball" growing up. Running up and down the court, all three point shots or dunks. No defense, no picks, no boxing out, no post play, nobody can hit a mid range jumper. It's pretty ridiculous and unwatchable if you ask me. There is no doubt in my mind that the elite teams of the 80s and 90s would dominate in today's game. Sure those teams would need to adjust to the amount of three point shooting that takes place today but who in today's game would guard Kareem, Worthy, Bird, Olajuwan. Parrish in the post. No contest.
You sound really, really old. Golden State passes passes and cuts as well any team I have seen. And teams play defense in the NBA and box out. It's just hard to shut down teams that have multiple shooters and ball handlers like Golden State. There are a hell of a lot of players today that could shut Worthy down (e.g., LeBron, D. Green, K. Leonard). Kareem and Olajuwan would be tough but I am guessing there would be a lot of double teaming, if necessary. And who is going to guard LeBron and Durant? It cuts both ways.
Funny, you sound very, very young to me if you think those guys could shut down Worthy in his prime. Obviously some teams are less guilty of this type of play than others but no doubt in my mind that the caliber and quality of play in the league as a whole is down. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that the NBA has become a players league and the players are dictating the type of play you see on the court. Coaches have become babysitters and psychologists rather than motivators and tacticians. Most coaches are considered successful based on how well liked they are by their players moreao than how successful they are at developing players and winning games. Guys like Popovich and Thibs are the exception and I don't think it is a coincidence that those guys consistently get the most out of their rosters. If you think that today's NBA teams play good defense, then I would hate to see what you would say if MJ's Bulls team in their prime was playing today.
By the way, I am not that old and my comments are not based solely on casual observation. Up until recently I was involved in coaching with a pretty competitive, pre high school travel basketball program and have seen these trends permeating all the way down to the youth levels. I saw very little emphasis and ability to teach fundamentals and team defense/offense concepts. I coached both of my sons through this program and can tell you that we were very successful because our kids were more fundamentally sound despite often being at an athletic and height disadvantage.
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Worthy was a very good (not great) player who benefitted tremendously from playing with Magic. I am extremely confident that LeBron, who is bigger, stronger, quicker and faster than Worthy, could shut him down. Magic would still dominate as would Kareem. Worthy is absolutely not at their level. He scored half his points off of fast breaks (which I think is funny given that you are calling today's teams run and gun). That's what the Lakers did.
I have followed the Bulls for 40 plus years. I loved the Jordan teams and he, Pippen and Grant/Rodman played great defense. I actually just watched a couple of full games from their championship years. But Longley and Cartwright are not going to be able to chase guys around the 3-point line and weren't good enough offensively to exploit mismatches. And Paxson and Armstrong were not great defenders.
How's your genius Phil Jackson and the vaunted triangle fared in the modern game?
Is three point shooting a fundamental?
As I wrote when this first came up, in all sports where performance can be objectively measured, the best ever played in the 1980s. Oh wait.
Every basketball era is different but I wouldn't call any better than another. The game goes through phases of style and rules. The great players would dominate in any era. I can't think of anyone shutting down Durant or Lebron. Same as with Jordan or Kareem. Leonard is a great defender and would defend as well as almost permiter defender (minus jordan) I can think of. As for fundamentals I'd call ball handeling and spot up shooting fundamentals. Granted there's not as much defense today but that's also because of rule changes. (No handchecking) So many people regardless of position today can shoot and that's dangerous. Screens in today's game are mostly on ball (except for the warriors and Spurs) That's something missed in good basketball. Again not saying one is better than the other but if you took the very best players from any era I believe they'll match up pretty well.
Nonsense. Jordan and Pippen would embarrass both Durant and Lebron. Especially if the officials called the game like they did in the 80's. Players today are soft. No way Lebron or Durant survive the gauntlet of Laimbeer, Edwards, Salley, and Mahorn. Or Ewing, Mason, Starks, and the Oak for that matter. Karl Malone would have crushed them. Jordan went up against and overwhelmed the Jordan Rules. No Durant or LeBron rules. Nuff said.
If you took them and gave them modern training, conditioning, and coaching, perhaps. If you put George Mikan in a time machine and dropped him off at Oracle Arena in 2017, he'd barely recognize the game they were playing, let alone be able to run out there and join in.
But then that's the point - modern players are always going to have an advantage, and that advantage only grows larger the further back you go. This year's awful Nets would obliterate the best teams from the 1940s. So it's always important when comparing teams to measure them relative to their eras.
Agreed. The truly great players will excel in any era. So would Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, etc. Even McHale would be unstoppable today just like he was in the 80's. No one today has his post moves. But there is no doubt in my mind that Durant, LeBron, Leonard and Curry would have been unstoppable in the 80's and 90's as well.
We can agree to disagree on Worthy. I watched him at UNC and the guy was dominant. Isn't he in the Hall of Fame?
Regarding the rest of your comments, you cite a handful of individuals who are exceptions but I was making an arguement regarding the game and the league as a whole. On a relative basis, Individual fundamentals are lacking and strong team play is not as common, particularly on the defensive end.The players run the league and the game has evolved to cater to how they want to play. They come into the league at the age of 19 with subprime fundamentals and aren't coach able when they get to the league so what you see is what you get.
Who said anything about Phil Jackson? Besides, if you think what the Knicks were running was the triangle offense then you really don't understand that offense.
Yes, shooting is a fundamental and the players of decades past could shoot it just as well as players today. The difference is that back then players were taught that breaking a defense down and taking the ball to the basket/pounding the ball inside created higher percentage scoring opportunities than shooting the ball from the perimeter, particularly in a league where defense was not a lost art. They were coached to play that way and they listened because the alternative was to sit on the bench. You wouldn't have caught a player dismissing a play that Chuck Daly, Pat Riley and Red Auerbach had drawn up in the huddle. Today's NBA is a league run by the players and they play the game like they play it on playgrounds.
It's a good point. Today's professional athletes are better athletes but not necessarily better players. Today's NFL players are bigger, stronger, faster than past NFL players but they are also very well coached and strong fundamentally. I don't think you can say that about the NBA.
I'm a jordan and pippen fan so if anything I should be jaded towards them. Not a huge Lebron fan. As good of defenders as they both were there's no way they would embarrass Durant with his shooting and length. Also Lebron with his strength and speed at his size. You'd also be very hard pressed to stop jordan since he is the best one on one player of all time. Honest question would jordan even line up against Durant or Lebron. I feel like he'd take curry or Irving (for now anyway) and pippen takes Lebron or Durant. No way curry or Irving can keep up with jordan, but you underestimate Durant he's a phenomenal player.
Durant was playing with a guy who was league MVP this year AND the other guy who could have won the MVP in any other year, and STILL COULD NOT BRING HOME THE BACON.
He had to go to an already loaded GS team that won 73 games the previous year to get his title.
Sorry, but like LeBron who stacked the deck in his first title run in Miami, I cannot respect the man, anywhere in the same stratosphere as a Kobe or a Jordan, until like LeBron, he can go and win one where there is no collusion.
It's reassuring to me that I still disagree with just about everything ECat posts.
I know Worthy was a great college player and a very good player. But he's a level below the all-time greats. Nothing extraordinary about his pro game. 19 and 5 when you are playing with Magic is not that impressive. There is no comparing him to Durant. Durant is taller, just as athletic and a better shooter. Green, Thompson, Curry and Durant are 4 great players who play basketball the right way and would have excelled in any era.
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You are underselling Worthy by saying his numbers were inflated because he played with Magic.. I would argue his numbers would have been higher had he not subjugated his game for the good of the team and because he played on a team with so many great players.
No argument regarding the Warriors players, especially Durant and Curry. Exceptionally skilled players. Wish there were a lot more players in the NBA that played the game the way they do. They are the exception, not the rule.
If it was against the Lakers the answer would have been Magic. Saw a shirt the other day for Lakers indicating if you wanted rings, they had them. Something like 15. Lakers and Celts of old likely would have been able to adjust OK. But how much of today's game would have a hard time with rules of old?
Fair enough. Like you said, we can agree to disagree on Worthy. And I understand your point on coachability.
